Kate Kelly Now Encouraging Others To Leave The Lds Church

[Scott Lloyd]

Sooner or later, apostates always show their true colors.

 

I predict that as the gay rights movement moves to its next goal of forcing churches to hire gays in church-run businesses and to ordain gays to the priesthood, you will see more liberal Mormons attack and leave the Church.

That will be one of the moves.

Not sure it will come before others, though, like trying to strip the Church of its tax exemption or attacking religious liberty through churches' affiliation with Scouting.

Perhaps they'll all come simultaneously.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

There are plenty of exmormons, never mormons and unbelievers on OW; did you get the idea it was a group of those with testimonies it was God's church somehow?

They seem to be mostly LDS but you're right, now there are many former believing LDS or ex-LDS. My beef is with them too I guess. If you no longer believe in an institution/faith, why try to change it? The ones that are in it and active believers should get that opportunity, they know more, they see what's going on.

Too bad OW didn't stay as faithful believers as a whole and brought things to the table in a more respectful manner, with some patience. What they did do, and you might disagree Cal, is make it so PH meetings are televised live, which might change how men and their sons attend, they might just stay home and watch. So not sure it was a good idea. The other change I believe OW brought out was women giving prayers in GC. So that's a good change. And women leaders portrait on the walls of public buildings now. And women representing in news conferences, little changes. So maybe OW did help somewhat, except the most faithful might feel an extreme dislike for OW's tactics and it may make things stagnant--keep the changes women really need from happening. Because the faithful won't speak up for fear of being like a Kate Kelly.

I'm not at all saying women should be ordained. But some changes won't hurt. I do believe our church does far more for making women's voices heard than the majority. I wonder if they might just let up somewhat on women being able to giving blessings like the old days without any judgements from even their families. It's definitely a spiritual experience that once was experienced by women in the church. But like my mom would tell me, as if I even worried about it during ERA, men need something, women have babies, they need something as significant. She said it better though.

Long post, not addressing the OP, sorry.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks, lol. About 20 years ago now, Steve Benson made "pray, pay, and obey" famous. thjs thread inspired my adaptation.

I'm aware of its long history in the anti-Mormon and apostate community, and I don't think it was original with Benson or with anti-Mormons.

 

But I'm afraid your "adaptation" doesn't lend much freshness to it.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

I've read this several times now and still can't make sense of it.

 

I'm pretty sure it all boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong.    "

[rodheadlee]

Regardless of how unhappy the church makes you, and regardless of how confident you are that it's a man-made institution that just isn't worthy of the dedication it demands of you, there is still one and only one answer to your question: pay, pray, obey, and stay. And shut up about your viewpoint unless it conforms to the script.

Then why on earth would she want women to be ordained in this man made institution?

[bluebell]

Then why on earth would she want women to be ordained in this man made institution?

 

Excellent question.  Maybe because she believes that if women were ordained, it suddenly wouldn't be man-made anymore?  It would be interesting to hear her thoughts on that.

[bluebell]

No, she attributes denigrative descriptors for those who aren't in her camp or oppose it...it's not exactly guilt and shame; more like accuse and shame, but pretend you didn't do either because you're progressive and are looking out for humanity and all that jazz. (speaking a a relatively progressive, looking out for humanity, sorta person) 

 

 

 

This is my biggest problem (for lack of a better term) with KK.  "Accuse and Shame" really does seem to be her rally cry when she doesn't get her way.

[JLHPROF]

Then why on earth would she want women to be ordained in this man made institution?

 

Because "equality" whatever that means is more important than the designs of God.

At least, that would be my guess.

Many people have ideas that they think are more important than what God actually has ordained.

[DBMormon]

I would say the same thing.  If the Church deeply hurts you and you feel unable to move forward and unable to move past that hurt.  Then I think we should at least recognize the validity for some to leave.

 

That said I hope people will find a way through the hurt and find ways to lead with faith.  I just want it said that I think leaving is best for some, it is the only way they will be able to regain any level of peace to their soul.

[why me]

They seem to be mostly LDS but you're right, now there are many former believing LDS or ex-LDS. My beef is with them too I guess. If you no longer believe in an institution/faith, why try to change it? The ones that are in it and active believers should get that opportunity, they know more, they see what's going on.

 

I don't think that kate had a testimony when she formed OW. A person with a testimony would not have the mission statement that she had for her organization. No person with a testimony would claim that women must have the priesthood to gain equality. This is a contradiction  since such decisions would be left up to revelation. Can one tell heavenly father what he must do?

 

But Kate did play a good game. Her website was full of 'mormonisms' from the way the women dressed, to showing young women praying like very good sterotypical mormons, to happy mormon faces. And yes, some members were taken in as some board members were here. Kate had wonderful agitation skills and knew her business. But she blew it. She overstepped the bounds, let her radical feminism get in the way, and was excommunicated. Now she no longer needs to pretend. Thus, her statement in the Tribune.

Edited July 19, 2015 by why me

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Then why on earth would she want women to be ordained in this man made institution?

I believe that she believes the tripe that has been sold for the last few decades, that (white) men are, at their core, idiots, and the cause of all human suffering. She believes if women can be ordained and take over leadership roles that they can correct the wrongs promulgated by the insufferable male morons and make the world into the utopia Liberals like her believe their ideas can make it.

As for why more focus is caste on her then say, Snuffer or Waterman, Snuffer and Waterman actually approach dissent from a pro-Restoration perspective, even if it disagrees with the LDS organization and what is has evolved into- she is pretty much an unbeliever who thinks the church is a social organization that should bend to current societal trends.

Edited July 19, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[sethpayne]

I would say the same thing.  If the Church deeply hurts you and you feel unable to move forward and unable to move past that hurt.  Then I think we should at least recognize the validity for some to leave.

 

That said I hope people will find a way through the hurt and find ways to lead with faith.  I just want it said that I think leaving is best for some, it is the only way they will be able to regain any level of peace to their soul.

 

Very well said.  It hasn't' been often, but I've seen more than one person leave or take an extended break from Church involvement only to return to some level of activity later.      I think sometimes when in the heat of the moment it may make sense to step away, think things through, and then move forward with a level head.  Rather than be driven by either extreme zealotry or anger.  Neither extreme is tenable in the long-run IMO.

[Duncan]

I would say the same thing.  If the Church deeply hurts you and you feel unable to move forward and unable to move past that hurt.  Then I think we should at least recognize the validity for some to leave.

 

That said I hope people will find a way through the hurt and find ways to lead with faith.  I just want it said that I think leaving is best for some, it is the only way they will be able to regain any level of peace to their soul.

 

 

I hear what you're saying but if you're hurt and you do leave how would you get healed outside the Church? I have friends that left and I love them but they are broken records sometimes. They just keep on saying the same thing and can't seem to get past this or that and it gets irritating sometimes to talk about something that happened in 1997 again and again and again and again and again-I say that because I had a friend who got disfellowshipped back then and it's like his life ended then and he's been talking about it ever since

[busybee]

Indeed.  Its a trait throughout.  In my father's family, there was some sort of argument and my aunt left the family home, taking valuable income with her since only she and my grandmother were working.  She left two siblings, who were plunged into poverty.  My father rarely spoke to her again.  I only met her at my grandmother's funeral, when i was 18 years old and that was the only time.  My father continues to put great store in family loyalty.  I feel one problem is that people expect far too much of the Saints.  We are not perfect people, we are all struggling with life and I really don't think its fair to expect more of them than any other group/Christian etc.  All anyone can expect of anyone is that they do their best and this is my biggest beef with Kate Kelly, OW etc.  They want perfection on Earth and they are never going to find it.  And, in all the organisations I have belonged to, the LDS is one of the least sexist.  (Kate should try being a female barrister in the UK).  I fear that though Kate Kelly may feel happier now, it will not last because her expectations are so high.  I also hope that I'm wrong.

I don't think feminism is very popular in Kenya. She's in for a rude surpise.

[sethpayne]

I hear what you're saying but if you're hurt and you do leave how would you get healed outside the Church? I have friends that left and I love them but they are broken records sometimes. They just keep on saying the same thing and can't seem to get past this or that and it gets irritating sometimes to talk about something that happened in 1997 again and again and again and again and again-I say that because I had a friend who got disfellowshipped back then and it's like his life ended then and he's been talking about it ever since

 

Well, I can only speak for myself.  But it took me some time away from Church to realize that even though I still had questions and that some of my personal opinions were heretical, I missed fellowship with the Saints, serving in the ward, etc...  At that time I went and had a great chat with my bishop and he put me to work!  

 

I think there is an unfortunate idea that one has to believe x, y, and z to be a Latter-day Saint involved with the ward, stake, community, etc...  This just isn't the case.  I've found that local leaders are anxious to find a place for anyone who wants to be involved.

[Duncan]

Well, I can only speak for myself.  But it took me some time away from Church to realize that even though I still had questions and that some of my personal opinions were heretical, I missed fellowship with the Saints, serving in the ward, etc...  At that time I went and had a great chat with my bishop and he put me to work!  

 

I think there is an unfortunate idea that one has to believe x, y, and z to be a Latter-day Saint involved with the ward, stake, community, etc...  This just isn't the case.  I've found that local leaders are anxious to find a place for anyone who wants to be involved.

 

moving forward is the key, some don't want or can't figure out how. This friend of mine just can't seem to get that nobody cares about what all happened back then, we'd be more than happy to have him back and let's face it 1997 was a long time ago, who would even remember anymore?! "I can't go there, they'd be all judging me" like, in your ward there would be two people who would even know, you and your Mom is the reality but he can't seem to get past that or believe it

Edited July 19, 2015 by Duncan

[Rain]

> The decision for a person to stay active in the Mormon church should be based on an honest evaluation of its benefits, and not fear. The popular home-organizing guru Marie Kondo offers some tips that seem applicable to organizing your spiritual life as well as your shelves. In every quest to de-clutter your living spaces, she encourages people to take out every possession they own and examine it. When deciding to keep or get rid of any given item, Kondo encourages the aspiring de-clutterer to ask themselves: “Does it spark joy?” If the item does not spark joy, it should be discarded to free up space.

  

> I encourage Mormon women to ask themselves a similar question: does my participation in Mormonism spark joy?

It's interesting to me that she uses Kono's book The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up to show her point. I read it.  There were some great points in it and I'm using those things for my house.  However, I think she had an inadequate method for needed things, but did not necessarily "spark joy".  Her idea is that you hold the thing in your hands and if it sparks then you keep it and if you don't then you don't.  

 

I am grateful for toilet paper and my insulin syringes, but they will never spark joy for me when I hold them in my hands.  I get the idea.  I get that she includes gratitude in her joy, but it just doesn't work the same for me.  

 

And that's the thing with checking to see if the the church sparks joy for you.  You may need church.  You may feel grateful for it. You may feel you can't survive without it's teachings, but for some that won't be the same as sparking joy.       

No, she just presents one side as degrading, devaluing women, with male leaders turning women into drones by somehow "coloniz[ing]" their minds and the patriarchal system trying to trap people into playing by their rules while ignoring the harm the critics are so willing to point out; making church, their life dangerous for them by causing pain,heartsickness and exhaustion, senses of being trapped instead of being able to breath, living in agony and anguish, rejected by church leaders and members engaging both in control games and in charades (as in meaningless pretend games perhaps) and as a result having to deal with cog dis, heavy dogma and injustices, undue suffering.....but wait! do not abandon hope yet for the other side of the boundary line opens up a whole new life that is freeing, safer, more peaceful---and has an easy peace, as well as calm, rest, with wonderful experience of resolution and beauty, abundancy, full of hope and joy, full of amazing opportunities on this path...if one is honest. And it is a course that will empower you, will give you a voice that will be listened to where it never happened for real before......just was a charade.

Which would you choose? or

This is one of my favorite posts of all time.  The visual was just wonderful! 

 

 

 

 

I didn't know I was "devalued" for not being able to have children in my body....?

 

So, not sure how women are "devalued" by the Church simply because they don't hold the "official" Priesthood, even though they do about everything else, as leaders even, and they get the Eternal Priesthood in the Temple.

 

These views of liberals that women are somehow "less" than others simply because others do something they don't or can't, always facinates me.

To me, it's her that's "devaluing" something or others.

While I agree with your intent, please don't compare motherhood with the priesthood. It is not the same.  Motherhood compares to fatherhood.  My personal belief is that women hold...something...that compares to priesthood.  I think fatherhood/priesthood and motherhood/something are intrinsically connected, but are not quite the same thing.   And motherhood is much more than having children in my body.

 

Ugh. This got too long.  I broke it down in other posts.  Sorry if it causes confusion.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rain

[bluebell]

Very well said. It hasn't' been often, but I've seen more than one person leave or take an extended break from Church involvement only to return to some level of activity later. I think sometimes when in the heat of the moment it may make sense to step away, think things through, and then move forward with a level head. Rather than be driven by either extreme zealotry or anger. Neither extreme is tenable in the long-run IMO.

I agree.

[Calm]

I don't think feminism is very popular in Kenya. She's in for a rude surpise.

I doubt she will be surprised given she has been working as an international women's rights lawyer for sometime now iirc, she could hardly remain oblivous in that case.

[Rain]

Seems to me that Kate Kelly well expresses many of the foibles of the "me"-generation:  Lack of self-discipline, lack of maturity, and lack of depth, along with the cult of extreme individuality, contempt for community, family, and the environment, and with a real focus on self-absorption and perhaps hedonism.  "Don't worry, Be happy."  Joy becomes the measure of all things, thus trashing the worthy objectives of Hinduism and Buddhism, for example.  The world's great religions tend to focus on the harsh realities of life, contemplating them without particular concern for childish notions of immediate gratification. 

 

 

I see this in a close family members.  Some may think this is just a church thing, but I have seen it carry over to all parts of life and it is scary to those who love these individuals.

Yeah, but is that really the point? "It doesn't matter if 100 leave because we'll baptize 105 new members to replace them." Failure to retain the base is a recipe for shrinkage. Most of the 100 will have been long term, faithful members who have been paying tithing all of their life and have served in multiple leadership positions. Exchange 100 previous stalwarts for 105 new converts of which 30 will stay active for 6 months and it's hardly a good trade.

 

But more important, these individuals are all important to God and to many of the rest of us.  He taught us to go after the one.  Some days I worry that my loved ones will be there as well.

[busybee]

Unmitigated absolutist rot.

 Oh, and have a nice day!!

 

Is it possible to disagree without being so downright disagreeable??? Wow

[Rain]

Quietly - At First.   But I do admit once the attacks (yes, I will call them attacks) upon my wife and children began, I was glad to give as much if not more than what I got.  

It's incredibly hard to see your children cry because their best friends are being kept from them purposely.  We have seen and sat down with a couple of those kids (in their late teen and 20's now)and yes, they were told explicitly that they were no longer allowed to be around 'those'  people.  

It's incredibly hard to see your wife depressed because she thought the friendships she had were genuine and not just for show on Sunday.  

It's incredibly hard to see your wife's own mother completely disassociate herself from her daughter and her grandkids. (again, explain that to the grandkids)

 

And it's funny, we never left Christ.  We continued on attending church and raising our kids in Godly way.   Were my actions Christlike at all times? - No. Not even all times on this board.   I'm not necessarily proud of everything I have done, but I will defend my family. And I can and will be aggressive when doing so.

 

And how we were treated was not just by some rogue members.  They were members who had 'learned' traits.  Learned from the LDS church.   Albeit, that may not be what the LDS church intends, but, it is what these members took away from the LDS church and it's teachings. 

 

I had a neighbor who called me one day.  A mutual neighbor called her and asked if I wouldn't let her children play with mine because she was not LDS.  That totally confused me.  First, I had no idea she had left the church as she wasn't ever very active and her name was still on the rolls.  Second, I had never said anything about our children not playing together.

As I dug further into things I discovered that her new pastor was teaching her son not to play with my children because he shouldn't be hanging around with those who are "not Christian". 

Since then I take it with a grain of salt when it is reported that parents won't allow children to play with others.  I have no doubts that it happens and am not happy about it at all, but more often than not I find it a matter of miscommunication.  When a person does make that ruling then I think it is wrong.  In any even I am all for communication - if you feel that is happening then ask the parent directly in a listening manner.

 

 

Is that what YOU say when an investigator asks if they SHOULD join the Church?  "I'm minding my own business.  You can figure it out for yourself!"  Or are only faithful members allowed to have an opinion about membership in the Church?

 

I tell them, "these are my beliefs.  You need to find out for yourself if what I have said is true and comes from God."  I am very careful to NOT tell someone they should join the church.

[busybee]

Is that what YOU say when an investigator asks if they SHOULD join the Church?  "I'm minding my own business.  You can figure it out for yourself!"  Or are only faithful members allowed to have an opinion about membership in the Church?

When an investigator asks if they should join the church they would be directed to pray about it an find out for themselves. No member worth their salt would give any advice on whether a person should join or leave the church. It is not within our stewardship to do so.

[Avatar4321]

How does the church hurt someone?

And why wouldn't the solution be to turn to the Savior who heals us all

[busybee]

Here we go with the blacks and the priesthood take. I was wondering when you were going to change the thread and make it a black issue. I think that it has been pointed out to you the difference between the issues on past threads. But you couldn't resist. It can be a little concerning that you tend to make it about race again. But lets keep this thread about kate and her news statement. Lets try not to change the topic again. It can get a little tiresome.

Man, I wish I hadn't used up all my rep points!!!!!