John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[mormonnewb]

+1

As always, and still, he has no clue what a "testimony" is. For him the church is a social club full of nice people. The beliefs are irrelevant.

My testimony is based on the actual words of Christ (to the extent they were translated correctly). He said to judge teachers by their fruit and believers by their love one to another. That is the basis for my testimony of the ecclesia.

And quite frankly, I'll take that over your too sacred to share bosom burning any day of the week. It works for some of you but it is a weak basis for many. I've met quite a few ex-Mos who lost their faith in JS, the Brethren and even Christ. I've yet to meet ANYONE who said that the ecclesia was wicked or rotten.

They may have had problems with an individual or two, but their testimony in the fruit of Mormonism remains. And if saints like you didn't decry that testimony as being part of a "social club," they might be among our number today.

[Calm]

I was only stating that there is a behind the scenes story as to why John and his family quit attending church. 

 

 

Indeed, and we are only getting part of it and that from someone who has demonstrated he is not always intent on presenting accurate information as opposed to information that makes him look good. (I assume this is standard operating procedure, even among my close family members, for any one sided story unless I've seen evidence in the past that someone has presented a fuller version but Dehlin does to do more than just tell what he perceives to be the story to actively crafting it by intentionally withholding information)

 

Also, that he was devoted to his tribe of Mormonism, and unlike a few here, didn't hightail it as soon as he realized it wasn't what he thought.

 

Instead, he is so devoted he attempts to change it or failing that, he creates a community that makes it easier to leave his tribe, to feel better about leaving.

 

I don't think John Dehlin started out to kill a lot of people's testimonies

 

And yet he states he knew he would be excommunicated the moment he took up the mike for MS.  People don't get excommunicated for building up others' testimonies or for encouraging people to stay in the Church.  Why was he so certain he would get excommunicated then?

 

All sides need to get a clue, the church holds no blame, never huh? It's all John's fault. 

 

This seems to be a straw man, though perhaps someone in the thread has claimed the Church is perfect and that no other member ever made a mistake in dealing with Dehlin.  However, Dehlin is a mature, highly intelligent adult.  Is he not capable of making his own decisions and taking control of his own life and directing it where it will go? Ultimately he made the decision, no one made the decision for him to act as he did.  While others contributed in various ways to nudging him down his path, he chose who to listen to and who to reject.  So while not all his fault, it is ultimately his life and therefore his responsibility.  

 

Do you think we should instead insult his intelligence and treat him as a child incapable of undertanding the impact of his own actions and choices? 

Edited February 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Is that how it EVER went down with John?  Did John ever enter a room full of faithful Mormons and attempt to destroy their testimonies?

 

Because if so, then yes, he had to go.  In fact, if he was a constant source of contention and irritation in sacrament meeting, Sunday School, or Elder's Quorum, he needed to be removed from that church environment.

 

Is not the community of faith something that lives beyond the four walls of the chapel?  

 

Does it matter only matter for believers whether it was a room full?  You are protesting that here is one man who is being hurt by the choices of his leaders.  Why is the one important in the case of his leaders but the standard is a "roomful of faithful Mormons" for Dehlin?  Why does not the wavering Saint who deserve to have a fellow stand by and help strengthen him as much?

[Stone holm]

It seems odd to cling to membership if you aren't even associating with a Ward.  Not sure I understand.

[KevinG]

My testimony is based on the actual words of Christ (to the extent they were translated correctly). He said to judge teachers by their fruit and believers by their love one to another. That is the basis for my testimony of the ecclesia.

And quite frankly, I'll take that over your too sacred to share bosom burning any day of the week. It works for some of you but it is a weak basis for many. I've met quite a few ex-Mos who lost their faith in JS, the Brethren and even Christ. I've yet to meet ANYONE who said that the ecclesia was wicked or rotten.

They may have had problems with an individual or two, but their testimony in the fruit of Mormonism remains. And if saints like you didn't decry that testimony as being part of a "social club," they might be among our number today.

The fact that you mock direct revelation from God, even with the imperfect and insufficient, yet biblical, description of burning on the bosom, tells me volumes about your demeanor.

Can you try to make a point without first denigrating the Mormons you claim to be a part of?

I get it, you don't like how Dehlin was handled. But he rejected the basic claims of the church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and separated himself. Finding a soft place to land outside of the gospel truth is no kindness.

If you disagree with what the LDS church teaches as the gospel so be it. Your nastiness in mocking the members does not serve your cause.

Edited February 19, 2015 by KevinG

[Calm]

He mischaracterizes LDS apologetics as disingenuous (that is, deliberate, conscious falsehood).

 

And when invited to correct things he believed were inaccurate or misleading or harsh at FairMormon, being welcomed to help to the point of making him an official member so that his voice could be as strongly heard as any others in our discussions, he made effectively zero effort to improve what we did.  Given the amount of effort he put into running MS and all the other of his projects, somehow I don't see his lack of attention to effecting change among apologists from the inside as a result of lack of energy or time.

[Calm]

 

I don't believe that JD had a conscious idea of harming people. 

I definitely believe he doesn't see himself as harming others.

[Tacenda]

IMO, a strong testimony continues to operates even in the context of opposition....yet Dehlin chose to withdraw himself and his family.

I feel a little weird in church for my doubting, times that by 10 and I'm surprised he stayed in as long as he did, almost like turning off a part of his emotions. I'd have an even worse mental disorder if I had to lead a double life and everyone, well a lot, would know it.

Is the church suppose to be a hospital for sinners, but not apostates? It's understandable since there is the doubt germ. Too bad it has to be that way, and members in his ward couldn't just understand he is "way out there" but just love him while in.

I wonder what the consequences would be if he didn't get ex'd, but they just kept loving the sinner, do you think he'd have backed off and regained footing, as far as sincerely going by faith?

I wonder if the excommunication put out the message that if you doubt keep it to yourself and lead a double life or else.

But the church has a limit I guess, and it reached the limit.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Tacenda

[KevinG]

I feel a little weird in church for my doubting, times that by 10 and I'm surprised he stayed in as long as he did, almost like turning off a part of his emotions. I'd have an even worse mental disorder if I had to lead a double life and everyone, well a lot, would know it.

Is the church is suppose to be a hospital for sinners, but not apostates? It's understandable since there is the doubt germ. Too bad it has to be that way, and members in his ward couldn't just understand he is "way out there" but just love him while in.

I wonder what the consequences would be if he didn't get ex'd, but they just kept loving the sinner, do you think he'd have backed off and regained footing, as far as sincerely going by faith?

I wonder if the excommunication put out the message that if you doubt keep it to yourself and lead a double life or else.

But the church has a limit I guess, and it reached the limit.

A hospital might take fewer than 365 days to,discharge me if I were helping their patients by encouraging them to stop dialysis and start taking sugar pills.

[Jeanne]

The thing is..John is responsible for John.  The church is responsible for truth and doctrine..wherefore, who is really responsible?

[Teancum]

".  JD's testimony was so strong about the people that he wanted to continue on as part of the tribe"

He cut off complete contact from the Church for himself and his family approximately a year before his excommunication.

 

 

And this because why.....????  Because his bishop was starting another "investigation."  Because his HT had been stalking his FB account and clipping it for the bishop.     In other words he was tired of the harassment. 

 

Now in defense of the Church Dehlin had become more strident and vocal the past year or two as well so sort of I say "what did you expect?"

[why me]

I feel a little weird in church for my doubting, times that by 10 and I'm surprised he stayed in as long as he did, almost like turning off a part of his emotions. I'd have an even worse mental disorder if I had to lead a double life and everyone, well a lot, would know it.

Is the church is suppose to be a hospital for sinners, but not apostates? It's understandable since there is the doubt germ. Too bad it has to be that way, and members in his ward couldn't just understand he is "way out there" but just love him while in.

I wonder what the consequences would be if he didn't get ex'd, but they just kept loving the sinner, do you think he'd have backed off and regained footing, as far as sincerely going by faith?

I wonder if the excommunication put out the message that if you doubt keep it to yourself and lead a double life or else.

But the church has a limit I guess, and it reached the limit.

What does the bible say about excommunication:

 

2 Thessalonians 3:14

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

 

Romans 16:17 -

 

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

2 John 1:10 - If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

 

Matthew Chapter 18

¹⁵Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

¹⁶But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

¹⁷And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

¹⁸Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

¹⁹Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

²⁰For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

Should the church not obey the new testament? I can only think that critics or those who wish to find fault do not understand what the bible teaches.

Edited February 19, 2015 by why me

[Calm]

I wonder if the excommunication put out the message that if you doubt keep it to yourself and lead a double life or else.

 

If that message is sent out, it is only because Dehlin and others keep misrepresenting why he was excommunicated which was not for asking questions or expressing doubt, for having not doubt, but certain belief in the Church not being what it said it was and for creating a community that promoted doubt and disbelief in others.

[Calm]

never mind... 

Edited February 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

The thing is..John is responsible for John.  The church is responsible for truth and doctrine..wherefore, who is really responsible?

In that respect, the Church is blameless.

[Teancum]

+1

 

As always, and still, he has no clue what a "testimony" is.  For him the church is a social club full of nice people.  The beliefs are irrelevant.

 

 

No I disagree. it is much more than a social club. For me as someone who was totally a believer for 30 years of my adult life and being 5th generation LDS it is more than that. Now as a skeptic I have much to lose.  Family, friends, a community structure, heritage, etc.   I think you marginalize the issues. So I still attend, participate and keep quiet because vocal people that are skeptics are not welcome.  I do it though mostly for my wife.  It is important to her.  See not as simple as you think.

[Teancum]

If that message is sent out, it is only because Dehlin and others keep misrepresenting why he was excommunicated which was not for asking questions or expressing doubt, for having not doubt, but certain belief in the Church not being what it said it was and for creating a community that promoted doubt and disbelief in others.

 

 

Please demonstrate how Dehlin created a community the PROMOTED DOUBTS in other.  This is  CFR really.

[Teancum]

In that respect, the Church is blameless.

 

 

Hardly...........

[KevinG]

No I disagree. it is much more than a social club. For me as someone who was totally a believer for 30 years of my adult life and being 5th generation LDS it is more than that. Now as a skeptic I have much to lose.  Family, friends, a community structure, heritage, etc.   I think you marginalize the issues. So I still attend, participate and keep quiet because vocal people that are skeptics are not welcome.  I do it though mostly for my wife.  It is important to her.  See not as simple as you think.

As a convert whose family is almost entirely Midwestern Methodist... I can understand the draw of culture, but my integrity had me convert in spite of mothers tears, family questions, and even mockery from some. Granted I was single.

John didn't just quietly disbelieve and struggle with staying in the culture. He actively preached things contradictory of the doctrines and sought followers.

[KevinG]

Please demonstrate how Dehlin created a community the PROMOTED DOUBTS in other.  This is  CFR really.

I refer you to his podcasts.

Truly.

If you cannot see it is hardly from lack of evidence.

[Teancum]

As a convert whose family is almost entirely Midwestern Methodist... I can understand the draw of culture, but my integrity had me convert in spite of mothers tears, family questions, and even mockery from some. Granted I was single.

John didn't just quietly disbelieve and struggle with staying in the culture. He actively preached things contradictory of the doctrines and sought followers.

 

 

Give me some examples.....

[Teancum]

I refer you to his podcasts.

Truly.

If you cannot see it is hardly from lack of evidence.

 

 

I have listened to hundreds of them.  I found not one issue that he raised that is not a valid area of concern and debate.  Many leaders have said either church is what it claims or it is a fraud that deserves exposure.

 

So someone honestly in public raises issues that can be considered to show the church is a fraud and they get kicked out.  Not the first time and not the last.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Teancum

[Scott Lloyd]

I definitely believe he doesn't see himself as harming others.

The proverbial loose cannon typically doesn't.

[KevinG]

Give me some examples.....

My mother crying because I'd been baptized already in her church?

My uncle tugging on my garments as they peeked out from my shorts

My father asking if I beleived my family was going to hell?

My best friend refusing to talk to me?

Being screamed at in public by my wife's childhood friend who told us my wife was carrying the spawn of satan?

Having a man try to cast out a devil from me because I was reading the Book of Mormon on a train.

Having a professor mock my Invisible God in class?

My old church choir neglecting to invite me to a reunion?

Being told by a recruiter I lost a job because the owner didn't like Mormons (in Wyoming no less).

Those examples?

Sorry but people whining they cannot leave the Mormon Church for social reasons even though they don't beleive in it, don't garner much pity from me. They should be warm or cold not lukewarm. And I'm not talking about those who struggle to beleive, just those who know better and lie in wait to deceive.

Now of your question was about Dehlin pick your own example. Telling people his views were tacitly OK with some anonymous General Authority while publicly denying Jesus divinity or the Book of Mormon is #1 in my hit parade.

Edited February 19, 2015 by KevinG

[Scott Lloyd]

My mother crying because I'd been baptized already in her church?

My uncle tugging on my garments as they peeked out from my shorts

My father asking if I beleived my family was going to hell?

My best friend refusing to talk to me?

Being screamed at in public by my wife's childhood friend who told us my wife was carrying the spawn of satan?

Having a man try to cast out a devil from me because I was reading the Book of Mormon on a train.

Having a professor mock my Invisible God in class?

My old church choir neglecting to invite me to a reunion?

Being told by a recruiter I lost a job because the owner didn't like Mormons (in Wyoming no less).

Those examples?

Sorry but people whining they cannot leave the Mormon Church for social reasons even though they don't beleive in it, don't garner much pity from me. They should be warm or cold not lukewarm. And I'm not talking about those who struggle to beleive, just those who know better and lie in wait to deceive.

Now of your question was about Dehlin pick your own example. Telling people his views were tacitly OK with some anonymous General Authority while publicly denying Jesus divinity or the Book of Mormon is #1 in my hit parade.

Wow, KevinG! You are an inspiration to me.