John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[mormonnewb]

I have listened to hundreds of them. I found not one issue that he raised that is not a valid area of concern and debate. Many leaders have said either church is what it claims or it is a fraud that deserves exposure.

To me, this is a major problem. One's faith should not hinge of the reliability of JS, BY, etc. No Protestant would ever say that if Paul wasn't who he said he was, then Christianity is a fraud. In fact, scholars believe that a few of Paul's epistles were actually penned by someone attempting to deceive the ecclesia. This discovery has not caused massive disillusionment amongst Protestants because their hope is not in the reliability of Paul's epistles. It is in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus ... full stop.

And in our secular world, it is hard enough to keep that belief. To heap another level of faith upon that seems to be adding an extra (and unnecessary) burden.

Edited February 19, 2015 by mormonnewb

[Teancum]

My mother crying because I'd been baptized already in her church?

My uncle tugging on my garments as they peeked out from my shorts

My father asking if I beleived my family was going to hell?

My best friend refusing to talk to me?

Being screamed at in public by my wife's childhood friend who told us my wife was carrying the spawn of satan?

Having a man try to cast out a devil from me because I was reading the Book of Mormon on a train.

Having a professor mock my Invisible God in class?

My old church choir neglecting to invite me to a reunion?

Being told by a recruiter I lost a job because the owner didn't like Mormons (in Wyoming no less).

Those examples?

Sorry but people whining they cannot leave the Mormon Church for social reasons even though they don't beleive in it, don't garner much pity from me. They should be warm or cold not lukewarm. And I'm not talking about those who struggle to beleive, just those who know better and lie in wait to deceive.

Now of your question was about Dehlin pick your own example. Telling people his views were tacitly OK with some anonymous General Authority while publicly denying Jesus divinity or the Book of Mormon is #1 in my hit parade.

I was not seeking personal examples.

From what I have heard from Dehlin he has not denied Jesus divinity though he has questions about the atonement and he only questions the historicity of the BoM.

[Teancum]

Wow, KevinG! You are an inspiration to me.

 

 

Would he be an inspiration if he was converting from Mormonism to say EV Christianity and he had similar personal anecdotal stories?

[KevinG]

Wow, KevinG! You are an inspiration to me.

Granted my parents are now very big Mormon supporters. We can ignore the haters, and the sum of these these events and others are spread over 29 years. I have received support for my decision too.

[KevinG]

Would he be an inspiration if he was converting from Mormonism to say EV Christianity and he had similar personal anecdotal stories?

If the Mormon cum Evangelical was honest, I suspect many evangelicals would support him and be inspired.

It's why I don't argue against the genuiness of someone's spiritual claims.

I do however find it distasteful when someone is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[Scott Lloyd]

I was not seeking personal examples.

From what I have heard from Dehlin he has not denied Jesus divinity though he has questions about the atonement and he only questions the historicity of the BoM.

What are you talking about? He questions whether Jesus actually lived. Even ardent disbelievers don't do that.

 

And denying the Atonement (disputing its very purpose) is tantamount to denying the divinity of Jesus -- who he thinks never existed.

[Scott Lloyd]

Would he be an inspiration if he was converting from Mormonism to say EV Christianity and he had similar personal anecdotal stories?

I'll refer you to KevinG's response; I don't think I can top that.

[Teancum]

Granted my parents are now very big Mormon supporters. We can ignore the haters, and the sum of these these events and others are spread over 29 years. I have received support for my decision too.

 

 

Well actually I am happy for you. My wife is a convert of 34 years. The only member of her 6 sibling family. None have ever shown any interest in the LDS Church but eventually most have been supportive. So I do understand this.

[Scott Lloyd]

Granted my parents are now very big Mormon supporters. We can ignore the haters, and the sum of these these events and others are spread over 29 years. I have received support for my decision too.

Sounds like a roller coaster ride. It can be distressing at times, but in the end, you're glad you did it.

[Teancum]

What are you talking about? He questions whether Jesus actually lived. Even ardent disbelievers don't do that.

 

And denying the Atonement (disputing its very purpose) is tantamount to denying the divinity of Jesus -- who he thinks never existed.

 

 

What am I talking about?  I thought I was clear.

 

I do not recall Dehlin ever questioning whether Jesus existed.  CFR?

 

Why cannot one question the philosophical issues surrounding the atonement?

[Teancum]

I'll refer you to KevinG's response; I don't think I can top that.

 

 

In other words you cheer when someone leaves another faith for Mormonism in spite of familial heart break but not so much the other way.

[KevinG]

Would he be an inspiration if he was converting from Mormonism to say EV Christianity and he had similar personal anecdotal stories?

Yeah, Scott beat me to it? Let's put it this way. If the Church agreed with Dehlins opinions (and those he gives a voice to in the mormon critics world) I'd ask to have my name removed from his followers rolls, and understand if I were excommunicated from his society.

[KevinG]

What am I talking about?  I thought I was clear.

 

I do not recall Dehlin ever questioning whether Jesus existed.  CFR?

 

Why cannot one question the philosophical issues surrounding the atonement?

I didn't either. I said he questioned His divinity.

So it's a non issue between us I guess.

[mormonnewb]

Yeah, Scott beat me to it? Let's put it this way. If the Church agreed with Dehlins opinions (and those he gives a voice to in the mormon critics world) I'd ask to have my name removed from his followers rolls, and understand if I were excommunicated from his society.

Then how does that make you any more loyal than us apostates? You simply follow the Church because you agree with its doctrines; and the moment they change, you're outta here. That's no different than someone who resigned their membership over, say, Prop 8. Isn't real faith choosing to follow even when you disagree or don't understand?

[Scott Lloyd]

In other words you cheer when someone leaves another faith for Mormonism in spite of familial heart break but not so much the other way.

Your "other words" bear absolutely no resemblance to anything I said. None.

[Teancum]

Yeah, Scott beat me to it? Let's put it this way. If the Church agreed with Dehlins opinions (and those he gives a voice to in the mormon critics world) I'd ask to have my name removed from his followers rolls, and understand if I were excommunicated from his society.

 

 

I do not think Dehlin or any others who are questioning asked the church to agree with them did he/they?  The question is whether the honest skeptic has a place in the church.

 

In my last TR I told my bishop ( who is the second bishop of my ward since I was a bishop so you must understand how difficult and awkward this was for me) and my SP  that I had severe questions and doubts about God, Jesus, Joseph and the restoration,,,,, but I sure hope that it is all true.  And they gave me my temple recommend, which just shocked me.

 

However I am not out podcasting about these things.

[KevinG]

In other words you cheer when someone leaves another faith for Mormonism in spite of familial heart break but not so much the other way.

That is a clueless accusation.

I've retained friends who left the LDS Church and still share their happy moments. In some cases their reason for leaving was family dysfunction, or unrighteousness dominion. I blame the Mormon families or wards who failed them, not the person who struggles.

While I may weep that they did not find the same comfort and enlightenment I did from my faith, I have never cheered familial heartbreak. I am also very hesitant to encourage one family member to investigate the Gospel without their family, especially youth.

Instead of blaming the Book of Abraham, or Polygamy History for breaking families up perhaps looking into the relationship itself to determine the causes for being unequally yoked or divided would be more productive?

[KevinG]

Then how does that make you any more loyal than us apostates? You simply follow the Church because you agree with its doctrines; and the moment they change, you're outta here. That's no different than someone who resigned their membership over, say, Prop 8. Isn't real faith choosing to follow even when you disagree or don't understand?

Caveat.. Unless God told me to stay.

I joined the LDS church as a result of revelatory answer to prayers.

And losing faith is not the same as apostasy. Teaching against the church doctrines while claiming to be sanctioned by its authorities is apostasy. Please refrain from putting words into my statements as you are want to do.

[KevinG]

I do not think Dehlin or any others who are questioning asked the church to agree with them did he/they?  The question is whether the honest skeptic has a place in the church.

 

In my last TR I told my bishop ( who is the second bishop of my ward since I was a bishop so you must understand how difficult and awkward this was for me) and my SP  that I had severe questions and doubts about God, Jesus, Joseph and the restoration,,,,, but I sure hope that it is all true.  And they gave me my temple recommend, which just shocked me.

 

However I am not out podcasting about these things.

I know many honest skeptics. None of them ever formed a media company broadcasting things opposed to chirch teachings and claimed to have the tacit approval of the brethren. You have selected a very poor example for a loyal sceptic.

[mormonnewb]

What am I talking about? I thought I was clear.

I do not recall Dehlin ever questioning whether Jesus existed. CFR?

Why cannot one question the philosophical issues surrounding the atonement?

Here's where I think JD got it wrong. He seemed to revile at the notion that HF's plan required one man to suffer for the sins of all. And I would be on his side if Jesus was simply another man.

While I generally agree with the Mormon concept of three separate personages, here's where the trinity is a more comforting model. If Jesus and HF are the same person, then the injustice disappears. God Himself took the punishment for our sins. To me, that is one of the most beautiful things about Christianity; and probably it's distinctive feature. To my VERY limited knowledge, very few (if any) other faith traditions posit a God that would die for his supplicants.

And even with our view of Christology, I still find something noble in the first begotten stepping in on our behalf. Some might question why HF wouldn't just call it all off at that point (as I would be tempted to do if my 20 yo approached me offering to take the punishment of his 10 yo brother). Just a guess on my part is that we needed Christ to demonstrate that supreme act of love for us (it certainly seemed to embolden the early followers). But either way, I don't find the concept of the atonement troubling.

[KevinG]

Teamcum and Mormonnewb.

If we are going to have a real discussion you must stop putting words in my mouth, or conflating my statements with your worst characters of apologetic bogeymen.

My statements stand for themselves, no reading into them needed.

Think twice about what you assume of me if you cannot respect that or have the inability to respond without the prefix of "in other words..."

[Scott Lloyd]

What am I talking about?  I thought I was clear.

 

I do not recall Dehlin ever questioning whether Jesus existed.  CFR?

Well I'm not going to root around in Dehlin's websites or Facebook pages or Podcasts to find it for you.

 

But here's a link to a blog that in turn links to the Greg Smith's piece on the Interpreter web site.

 

That should give enough of a lead for you to search further if you so choose.

 

Here's a copy-and-paste

 

Dehlin on the atonement: “This idea that we have to punish someone else for a bunch of other people’s mistakes—that just bothers me. The fact that it is even necessary bothers me, and trying to do the math to make it all add up. over there for what I did doesn’t make sense at all.”3

Dehlin is skeptical about the atonement and resurrection and also skeptical about the very existence of Jesus as a historical person. 36 The existence of Jesus is, however, virtually uncontested by biblical scholars regardless of their religious affiliation. Wrote one representative author, “There are a few today who assert that Jesus is a myth who never existed, although it appears that no widely respected scholar holds this position.”

This view was at one point something of an atheist touchstone, but no expert on early Christianity takes it seriously today—only atheist crusaders like Richard Dawkins still invoke it.38 Despite there being almost universal consensus on this point even among a notoriously fractious group of scholars, Dehlin promotes an absurdity that hasn’t been taken seriously by informed readers for decades.

37 http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SMITH1-Review-Mormon-Stories.pdf

 

Why cannot one question the philosophical issues surrounding the atonement?

 

"One" is free to do a lot of things -- but not necessarily remain a member in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ while doing them, as Dehlin's stake president said to him.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

That is a good place to start... And you forgot the link.

[Teancum]

Your "other words" bear absolutely no resemblance to anything I said. None.

 

 

Not my take... feel free to clarify.

[Teancum]

Teamcum and Mormonnewb.

If we are going to have a real discussion you must stop putting words in my mouth, or conflating my statements with your worst characters of apologetic bogeymen.

My statements stand for themselves, no reading into them needed.

Think twice about what you assume of me if you cannot respect that or have the inability to respond without the prefix of "in other words..."

 

Ii have no idea what your point is here.