John Dehlin Excommunication Discussion

[mormonnewb]

"I don't believe in the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no longer wish to be associated with it, and wish to resign" is one thing. Neither Bishops nor anyone else (should) obstruct the process if that's the case. However, if discipline is pending when the member expresses a wish to resign, he should not be allowed to try to "outfox" the Church of Jesus Christ by saying to himself, in effect, "If I resign now (while discipline is pending) and later decide to change that decision, it will be as though no discipline ever was pending against me, so I won't have as hard of a time getting back in as I would if there were."

Anyone of such a mind can castigate the "Big, Bad, Mean Church" for how it handles attempts to resign while discipline is pending all he wants to. The fact remains that there are reasons good and sound for the Church's procedures in such cases. If John Dehlin or anyone else who has faced discipline wants to come back in with a clean slate, more power to him: but in order to do that, he first has to own up to God and to the Church of Jesus Christ for what he's done. He should not be able to escape that responsibility by saying, "You're gonna excommunicate me? Well, I resign!"

So is the point of Church discipline to facilitate a return to "good Mormonism" or is to establish a clean record to no one "skirts" their rightful punishment?

I admire all of you who are willing to accept the punishment you "deserve" for your transgressions. It must be because you deserve so little. As for me, I must place my hope in HF's exceeding grace through the atonement of Christ because I am not man enough to bear up to even a fraction of the chastisement I so richly deserve. For that reason, I would have hoped that the local leaders in His Church would be the first to extend such grace. Silly me!

Edited February 15, 2015 by mormonnewb

[BlueDreams]

I don't have a podcast and am a newb, but even I know that you don't want to resign from this Church? I flirted with the idea of going inactive for a spell and it was made quite clear to me that if I didn't give an acceptable reason, several "unacceptable" reasons would be assumed.

And remember, I don't have a slew of "faithful" Mormons who are dying to find some way to discredit me. And since it wasn't possible for him to just fade into inactivity, he HAD to let it all play out so that he would have a record.

Of course, we are still arguing over the real reason for his excommunication, but at least, no one is claiming that he left the Church for hot caffeine or porn.

 

Would that be it though? Because, as you mention, you don't have a podcast and are a newb. Dehlin wasn't a Newb, lived in the same area for years, and is well-known for his floundering faith. Insomuch that a GA at some point talked with him about it and his previous SP talked with him about it regularly. I don't think most anybody would assume that it was because of his dear love of coffee that got him in the end. His exit wouldn't be much of a big mystery because his positions are postered all over the net. In other words: void filled.

 

And I still hold some discrepancy with your friend's assessment. If he up and left maybe that would be the case. But I don't know if that fits for everyone. I had a seminary teacher as a teen leave the church. Many of the teens didn't have the greatest opinion of the guy (he wasn't too bad, IMO, just a little intense and quarky). How he taught could be....odd to say the least. And we found out that his G/F was baptist. In the south the narrative that got filled was a simple one: met someone, southern baptists in the area weren't known for their friendliness to the mormons, possibly anti'd a little, and had approaches to his beliefs previously that were a little out there. I was surprised (others weren't) but I don't remember it being discussed as a case of sin. 

 

I do have a case that I know where, frankly I do believe part of his problems with his faith are his sins (some small....but some not small, even outside of mormonism) and pride getting in the way of accepting his own error, mixed in there with the usually doubts. But that's a different story. I think of a lot of the stories I've heard of people leaving offline and what people say after about it and though some do follow the sin route, a lot of them aren't pigeon-holed to that.

 

With luv,

BD

[Bobbieaware]

So is the point of Church discipline to facilitate a return to "good Mormonism" or is to establish a clean record to no one "skirts" their rightful punishment?

I admire all of you who are willing to accept the punishment you "deserve" for your transgressions. It must be because you deserve so little. As for me, I must place my hope in HF's exceeding grace through the atonement of Christ because I am not man enough to bear up to even a fraction of the chastisement I so richly deserve. For that reason, I would have hoped that the local leaders in His Church would be the first to extend such grace. Silly me!

Consider this: It's very likely one of the reasons why there was a war in heaven is because the forces opposed to God sincerely believed God's plan of salvation provided too little mercy. In it's allowance for a fullness of freedom to do good or evil, it was understood that in God's plan of salvation some would inevitably go over to "dark side" and be cast out of His presence. The prospect of these expulsions from God's presence were more than Lucifer and his followers could tolerate and so they rebelled against God and His plan. And in the supreme irony of all ironies, Lucifer and his host became the the first to go over to the dark and be cast out of God's presence.

But what Lucifer and his followers failed to understand is that, by immutable eternal law, mercy cannot be allowed to overpower justice because there can be no forward moral progress unless, as the Book of Mormon teaches us, justice claims his own and mercy claims her own. In order for the plan of salvation to work, justice cannot overpower mercy and mercy cannot be allowed to dominate and overpower justice. Rather, justice and mercy are inextricably bound together in the plan of salvation, each facilitating and amplifying the effective salvational action of the other.

So what you must understand is that the role of justice is to generate the effective action of mercy, and the role of mercy is to establish the effective application of justice, for justice and mercy must work in perfect harmony or there can be no spiritual growth and salvation. The temptation to allow mercy to overpower justice is ultimately counterproductive (one look at the consequences of the modern welfare state is all the evidence a reasonable person needs to understand just how destructive excesses of mercy can be) because if that is allowed to happen, neither mercy nor justice can be effectively established. As it was in the case of the hellish suffering of the rebellious Alma the younger -- where without mitigation harsh justice was allowed to do it's pain-inducing work of breaking down the resistance of Alma's hardened heart -- justice has been applied to the rebellious John Dehlin in his misguided and spiritually-destructive enterprise, with the hope that sooner or later justice will work upon his heart that he might comr to seek and desire mercy.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[why me]

I don't have a podcast and am a newb, but even I know that you don't want to resign from this Church? I flirted with the idea of going inactive for a spell and it was made quite clear to me that if I didn't give an acceptable reason, several "unacceptable" reasons would be assumed.

And remember, I don't have a slew of "faithful" Mormons who are dying to find some way to discredit me. And since it wasn't possible for him to just fade into inactivity, he HAD to let it all play out so that he would have a record.

Of course, we are still arguing over the real reason for his excommunication, but at least, no one is claiming that he left the Church for hot caffeine or porn.

I don't understand why you remain a member of such a church as the lds church. It seems that you have a very bad understanding of it  but in truth,  if I had your attitude I  would leave like the  road runner and never look back. My gosh what a post about the mormons who make up the church. Does your EQ know how you feel about them? But seriously, if I did have your attitude I would be gone in a flash. But you see I haven't had such an experience and yes, I am inactive, in fact I have been inactive for 28 years. Quite a long time and yes, I still go to meetings but not to all of them. I have no callings, no talks etc. But I haven't had such rumors spread about me although I do believe that members can find me a mystery at times. But who knows, maybe there has been a porn rumor. However, since many members have inactive family members or friends, I tend to doubt that many would pass such judgements that you claim would happen. And why attend a church based on possible rumors? What would it matter anyway if you  don't believe.And didn't you say that you joined because of the nice people? I am a little confused now.

 

What I have always found amazing about your posts is just how critical they are toward church and members.  You are more critic than most exmembers who post on forums.

[Jeanne]

By whom?

I have sat in Ward Council meetings that have already decided that so and  so has a problem...in any RS  presidency meeting...the concern changed to gossip in no time at all.

[why me]

So is the point of Church discipline to facilitate a return to "good Mormonism" or is to establish a clean record to no one "skirts" their rightful punishment?

 

No. There is no such thing as good mormonism. However, there is the opportunity to be a member in good standing. And it isn't a punishment.

I admire all of you who are willing to accept the punishment you "deserve" for your transgressions. It must be because you deserve so little.

 

What does it mean to deserve so little? I  have pointed out to you that every church has in place some sort of discipline. It must be so. Even the pope exed a priest for his support for ordaining women or ssm. No church would tolerate a member who is attempting to destroy that church  from within.

 

As for me, I must place my hope in HF's exceeding grace through the atonement of Christ because I am not man enough to bear up to even a fraction of the chastisement I so richly deserve. For that reason, I would have hoped that the local leaders in His Church would be the first to extend such grace. Silly me!

 

Grace would have been accepted if their were genuine repentance. But there was no repentance. Just difiance. Do you really believe that such behavior as John's would have received grace if he continued in his behavior? Would it be okay for me if I were a baptist to fornicate my way through life and would grace be giving me to do so or to claim that god doesn't exist and influence my fellow baptists to leave the faith and yet, I still wish to be a member? I doubt it. It sounds satanic to me. Go and sin.for grace is yours anyway.

Jeanne, I tend not to think that it was gossip but rather speculation.  Of course such speculation is necessary since Visiting teachers and home teachers would need to prepare themselves. And it is human to speculate or gossip. It happens no matter what situation one has. However, since most have family members who are inactive or who have left the church, I think that judgements are suspended.

 

I couldn't give your post a separate post because being on limited I must save my posts.

Edited February 15, 2015 by why me

[JLHPROF]

By whom?

 

It's true.  When a VERY active member becomes inactive for any reason, the rumour mill always likes to make up reasons.  I don't think that can be blamed on anything but human nature.  I've see it happen, it's just natural.

[mormonnewb]

It's true. When a VERY active member becomes inactive for any reason, the rumour mill always likes to make up reasons. I don't think that can be blamed on anything but human nature. I've see it happen, it's just natural.

I agree that it is a natural human response. And contrary to Why Me's assertion, I don't have disdain for Mormons because I acknowledge that we tend to gossip (although not nearly as well as my beloved Baptists ... We had a 300 year head start).

[Calm]

I have sat in Ward Council meetings that have already decided that so and  so has a problem...in any RS  presidency meeting...the concern changed to gossip in no time at all.

I don't doubt that there are gossips out there, I don't think the Church as an institution promotes them though.  And I've been in wards that are very anti gossip so there is a range of behaviour.  Leaders can definitely set a good example and if they are a bad example, it can cause others to follow just as when they are good role models.

 

I asked "by whom" because I was curious as to how newb would know that the members would gossiped about his inactivity when he wasn't inactive at this point.  I thought he meant from personal experience rather than someone telling him what to expect.

Edited February 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I don't understand why you remain a member of such a church as the lds church. It seems that you have a very bad understanding of it but in truth, if I had your attitude I would leave like the road runner and never look back. My gosh what a post about the mormons who make up the church. Does your EQ know how you feel about them? But seriously, if I did have your attitude I would be gone in a flash. But you see I haven't had such an experience and yes, I am inactive, in fact I have been inactive for 28 years. Quite a long time and yes, I still go to meetings but not to all of them. I have no callings, no talks etc. But I haven't had such rumors spread about me although I do believe that members can find me a mystery at times. But who knows, maybe there has been a porn rumor. However, since many members have inactive family members or friends, I tend to doubt that many would pass such judgements that you claim would happen. And why attend a church based on possible rumors? What would it matter anyway if you don't believe.And didn't you say that you joined because of the nice people? I am a little confused now.

What I have always found amazing about your posts is just how critical they are toward church and members. You are more critic than most exmembers who post on forums.

There's a difference if you've been inactive for several years and that's all people know vs. suddenly inactive after strong activity, think about it. Don't you think people would wonder how a once stalwart member ends up inactive? The reasons run rampant but usually don't cover disbelief, because the church is true.

[mormonnewb]

I don't understand why you remain a member of such a church as the lds church. It seems that you have a very bad understanding of it but in truth, if I had your attitude I would leave like the road runner and never look back. My gosh what a post about the mormons who make up the church. Does your EQ know how you feel about them? But seriously, if I did have your attitude I would be gone in a flash. But you see I haven't had such an experience and yes, I am inactive, in fact I have been inactive for 28 years. Quite a long time and yes, I still go to meetings but not to all of them. I have no callings, no talks etc. But I haven't had such rumors spread about me although I do believe that members can find me a mystery at times. But who knows, maybe there has been a porn rumor. However, since many members have inactive family members or friends, I tend to doubt that many would pass such judgements that you claim would happen. And why attend a church based on possible rumors? What would it matter anyway if you don't believe.And didn't you say that you joined because of the nice people? I am a little confused now.

What I have always found amazing about your posts is just how critical they are toward church and members. You are more critic than most exmembers who post on forums.

I attend and serve in an imperfect church. Yet, you are inactive in what you believe is God's one true church. And you're confused by ME?

For hopefully the last time, I do not need to believ that the Church (or Mormons) are perfect people to want to be part of the tribe. I'm part of a marriage in which HALF of the people are not perfect. I live in a country in which all but one of its citizens has the "right" politics. So why would I run screaming from the Church because we aren't quite where we should be yet? No other church has gotten there yet either.

[Calm]

 The reasons run rampant but usually don't cover disbelief, because the church is true.

I think this depends on people's experience.  If they've known those who have left because of disbelief, they are more likely to expect this is the cause.  If they don't, their mind will go to what reasons they have most often seen (or believed they've seen).

[why me]

I attend and serve in an imperfect church. Yet, you are inactive in what you believe is God's one true church. And you're confused by ME?

For hopefully the last time, I do not need to believ that the Church (or Mormons) are perfect people to want to be part of the tribe. I'm part of a marriage in which HALF of the people are not perfect. I live in a country in which all but one of its citizens has the "right" politics. So why would I run screaming from the Church because we aren't quite where we should be yet? No other church has gotten there yet either.

But you are very negative about the church. Of course the church is imperfect but you seem to love to bring it up when it suits your purposes. I just accept that the church is imperfect because people are imperfect. I am inactive because of the choices I make in my life. I have always admitted my inactivity on this board and I have been judged by no one which is a plus for the lds. I cannot say the same for the critics of the church who have judged me harshly for defending the church (when I am inactive) on their boards...sort of like you just did. I am not negative toward the lds church. So, I hang on and I have received spiritual experiences about the book of mormon and the D&C when I was younger. I could never forget those experiences. So, I always have at least a foot in the door. But I remember that you wanted to leave and go for the baptists but I told you to stick around but if you are so negative and don't have a testimony....as john didn't....

 

I guess I don't have any negatives to say about the lds church and it does give me free agency.

 

But I can't understand why people would stay a member if they saw something negative about the church behind every bush or questioned the calling of its leaders. This is a mystery to me. And john also wanted to remain a member even though he had no belief in the book of mormon or in the church itself. Why stay a member?

Edited February 15, 2015 by why me

[thesometimesaint]

But you are very negative about the church. Of course the church is imperfect but you seem to love to bring it up when it suits your purposes. I just accept that the church is imperfect because people are imperfect. I am inactive because of the choices I make in my life. I have always admitted my inactivity on this board and I have been judged by no one which is a plus for the lds. I cannot say the same for the critics of the church who have judged me harshly for defending the church (when I am inactive) on their boards...sort of like you just did. I am not negative toward the lds church. So, I hang on and I have received spiritual experiences about the book of mormon and the D&C when I was younger. I could never forget those experiences. So, I always have at least a foot in the door. But I remember that you wanted to leave and go for the baptists but I told you to stick around but if you are so negative and don't have a testimony....as john didn't....

 

I guess I don't have any negatives to say about the lds church and it does give me free agency.

 

But I can't understand why people would stay a member if they saw something negative about the church behind every bush or questioned the calling of its leaders. This is a mystery to me. And john also wanted to remain a member even though he had no belief in the book of mormon or in the church itself. Why stay a member?

 

The Church is perfect. Then God let us in.

[why me]

The Church is perfect. Then God let us in.

Maybe so. But then god let in people and the church became less perfect. The problem is when people attempt to uncover imperfections in members both past and present to disparage the church. This seems to be a critic's MO. Its a run in circles.

 

Since I know that people are imperfect in the church, I try to overlook such imperfections. Strangely, Joseph Smith also had to tell members that he was not perfect and at one time he addressed the congregation by telling them that he was unrighteous. I suppose that people expected him to be perfect too.

Edited February 15, 2015 by why me

[Pahoran]

Teancum wrote:

 

Ah cool your jets Mr. Polemics.

Looking in the mirror when you wrote that, were you?

 

I would not love to do anything

And yet the established fact is that you tried to cast the Stake President's question as a "threat."

I'm sorry you don't love what you freely choose to do.

and no you can't help me because I want no help from you really. I was simply talking about what I knew and heard and read.

And drawing unwarranted conclusions therefrom.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mikegriffith1]

When someone tries to generate bad publicity for the Church by taking their disagreements public, that right there tells me their heart is not in the right place.  In this case, his stands on gay marriage and ordaining women make it clear that he rejects the Church's fundamental teachings.

[ERayR]

I don't have a podcast and am a newb, but even I know that you don't want to resign from this Church? I flirted with the idea of going inactive for a spell and it was made quite clear to me that if I didn't give an acceptable reason, several "unacceptable" reasons would be assumed.

And remember, I don't have a slew of "faithful" Mormons who are dying to find some way to discredit me. And since it wasn't possible for him to just fade into inactivity, he HAD to let it all play out so that he would have a record.

Of course, we are still arguing over the real reason for his excommunication, but at least, no one is claiming that he left the Church for hot caffeine or porn.

 

Huh.  Your theory is disproved in almost every ward in the church else we wouldn't have an inactive list and we would need to build a whole slew of new chapels.

[ERayR]

I don't doubt that there are gossips out there, I don't think the Church as an institution promotes them though.  And I've been in wards that are very anti gossip so there is a range of behaviour.  Leaders can definitely set a good example and if they are a bad example, it can cause others to follow just as when they are good role models.

 

I asked "by whom" because I was curious as to how newb would know that the members would gossiped about his inactivity when he wasn't inactive at this point.  I thought he meant from personal experience rather than someone telling him what to expect.

 

And I have sat in many of those meetings where the discussion was centered around ways to help those individuals feel welcome and become an active part of the organization.  In fact quite similar to some discussions in service organizations trying to reinvigorate some of their members.

[Stone holm]

For the first time this week I heard a person outside this forum actually mention Dehlin. He was a former student back in Indiana expressing sadness over the action and indicating that Dehlin had helped him stay in the Church during a time of crisis and that he regularly listens to the podcast. Unlike the Kelly excommunication, my contacts out here don't really seem to care much about what Salt Lake is or isn't doing with "Apostates". Which I suspect is a healthy attitude, you are less likely to have problems with the Church if you concentrate on your friends in the Ward and simply ignore Salt Lake.

[Pahoran]

For the first time this week I heard a person outside this forum actually mention Dehlin. He was a former student back in Indiana expressing sadness over the action and indicating that Dehlin had helped him stay in the Church during a time of crisis and that he regularly listens to the podcast. Unlike the Kelly excommunication, my contacts out here don't really seem to care much about what Salt Lake is or isn't doing with "Apostates". Which I suspect is a healthy attitude, you are less likely to have problems with the Church if you concentrate on your friends in the Ward and simply ignore Salt Lake.

Dehlin was excommunicated by his local Stake Presidency and High Council.

Just FYI.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mystery Meat]

 simply ignore Salt Lake.

 

....so apostasy?

[Stone holm]

Dehlin was excommunicated by his local Stake Presidency and High Council.Just FYI.Regards,Pahoran

Yes, but few out here would believe that it went forward without counsel from SL.

[Stone holm]

....so apostasy?

Possibly, or more likely just not interested. If someone was excommunicated in the Ward they might pay attention, outside the Ward nobody really cares what we LDS do, we tend to be shrugged off as a bunch of right wing John Birchers. Once in awhile we pick up some disaffected fundamentalist, but for the last dozen years conversion rates have dropped to near non existent. Not sure what is happening elsewhere in New England , but we used to be tied for the highest baptizing unit in the Mission. That all came to an abrupt halt after Prop 8 and the legislative battles.

[ERayR]

Yes, but few out here would believe that it went forward without counsel from SL.

 

And you know this how?