Kind Debater Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 In another discussion group, I've seen the claim repeatedly brought up that LDS and evangelicals believe in different versions of Jesus, with each side claiming the other side's version of Jesus does not match the Bible. I've heard that LDS doctrine states that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are brothers and that emphasis is placed on Jesus being the begotten Son of God, but I'm not clear on what LDS teaching is concerning Jesus prior to his earthly birth. So my questions are: Where do you (corporately or individually) disagree with evangelical views on Jesus? What exactly is LDS doctrine concerning Jesus and his being the "only begotten" son of God? I've heard that LDS believe we have all existed from eternity past as intelligences which God then organized and/or put into physical bodies. What is the difference between Jesus and other pre-existing intelligences -- did he start out as that? If people are the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, is Jesus one as well? If so, what makes him different from us -- why is he called the only son of God and why is he divine while we aren't? And how did he create everything that has been created if he himself was created to some extent?
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Oh please, not ANOTHER are we Christian's thread. Don't we have enough of them going? Yes we are Christians. Yes we believe in a Christ that is different in nature from the evangelical Christians. Both sides think the Bible describes their Christ and not the other groups. Other groups don't like that we call ourselves Christians but we don't care. That's really all there is to it at this point. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 In what way(s) do LDS say that Evangelical Christians worship a different Jesus? The only argument I've ever heard from the LDS side is that LDS worship the same Jesus, not that Evangelicals worship a different one. Thanks in advance for the clarification.
Freedom Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Jesus is the only begotten in the flesh, but he was the first born among the spirits. Jesus is our brother in the sense that we share the same father of our spirits. He is our father by divine investiture. Satan was called Lucifer, he was the son of the morning, as was Jesus. They were equal in their stature. Satan was among the children of God until he was cast out for rebellion. So we are joint heirs with Christ who is our elder brother. Before he was born, he was a spirit but he was the God of the Old Testament. Jehovah is Jesus Christ. Just as salvation came through Jehovah in the old testament, salvation comes through Christ in the new testament. 2
Kind Debater Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Oh please, not ANOTHER are we Christian's thread. Don't we have enough of them going? JLH, I've seen your comments on the other threads and I understand you're tired of the "are LDS Christians or not" threads. This is not what I'm asking, though. I'm not even looking to debate the matter. I'm asking specifically what LDS beliefs are. Yes we believe in a Christ that is different in nature from the evangelical Christians. How, exactly?
Kind Debater Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Jesus is the only begotten in the flesh, but he was the first born among the spirits. What do you mean by "only begotten in the flesh" and "first born among the spirits"? He is our father by divine investiture. Father in what sense? In church today my pastor brought up the passage where Jesus said, "I'm going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." I don't think I've heard of anyone, LDS or evangelical, referring to Jesus as Father. I'm not saying that's not LDS doctrine, I'm just asking for clarification.
Freedom Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 We teach that he is the father in that sense that he1) brought us salvation2) created the earth on which we dwell3) is our advocate with the Father Mosiah 15:2 And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the son. The Father because he was conceived by the power of God' and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son. So as you pointed out, they are two separate and distinct people, but Jesus is our Lord and our God because of his divine nature. This is how the passages in the bible are reconciled and the need for the traditional trinity is not needed. "Our Savior, Jesus Christ, is called the Only Begotten Son because He is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. He inherited divine powers from God, His Father. From His mother, Mary, He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death.1Because Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father, He was able to lay down His life and take it up again. The scriptures teach that “through the atonement of Christ,” we “obtain a resurrection” (Jacob 4:11). We also learn that all “might be raised in immortality unto eternal life” if we “would believe” (D&C 29:43)." https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/12/the-divine-mission-of-jesus-christ-the-only-begotten-son?lang=eng
Vance Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) What do you mean by "only begotten in the flesh"Jesus is the only person to have God the eternal Father as his biological Father. Is that simple enough? Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.and "first born among the spirits"?"Of all the spirit children of God the Father, Jesus was the first to be created/organized.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Edited January 18, 2015 by Vance 1
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) I'm asking specifically what LDS beliefs are. How, exactly? Evangelicals believe that Christ is and always has been God and has existed as God for all eternity and merely put on human form to come to earth. LDS believe that Christ had a spiritual creation (birth if you will) and is one of God's many spirit children, just as we are and that by virtue of his perfection, intelligence, and actions in the pre-mortal existence he became our Savior and will eventually (probably already has) become our Father and our God when he inherits all that the Father has. Basically, Christ is part of our generation of God's spirit Children, being the firstborn among them, but still having a spirit creation.To evangelicals, Christ has always been part of the Godhead which has no species relation to us mere creations.Oh, and just to be clear, not all LDS Church members believe 100% the same regarding these things any more than all evangelicals do. For instance, I do not agree with most of Freedom's last paragraph in post #4 but many members do. Edited January 18, 2015 by JLHPROF
Tacenda Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 In what way(s) do LDS say that Evangelical Christians worship a different Jesus? The only argument I've ever heard from the LDS side is that LDS worship the same Jesus, not that Evangelicals worship a different one.Thanks in advance for the clarification. It's probably our belief in the pre-existence, most EV's don't believe in it, that's the big difference there I guess.
Flyonthewall Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 In another discussion group, I've seen the claim repeatedly brought up that LDS and evangelicals believe in different versions of Jesus, with each side claiming the other side's version of Jesus does not match the Bible. I've heard that LDS doctrine states that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are brothers and that emphasis is placed on Jesus being the begotten Son of God, but I'm not clear on what LDS teaching is concerning Jesus prior to his earthly birth. So my questions are: Where do you (corporately or individually) disagree with evangelical views on Jesus? What exactly is LDS doctrine concerning Jesus and his being the "only begotten" son of God? I've heard that LDS believe we have all existed from eternity past as intelligences which God then organized and/or put into physical bodies. What is the difference between Jesus and other pre-existing intelligences -- did he start out as that? If people are the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, is Jesus one as well? If so, what makes him different from us -- why is he called the only son of God and why is he divine while we aren't? And how did he create everything that has been created if he himself was created to some extent?You at least come closer by saying we believe in a different "version" of Jesus. We believe in the SAME person, we simply believe things about Him that differ - not everything is different but there are differences.
Rivers Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 In the eyes of many other Christians, the different things we believe about Jesus are enough to kick us out of Christianity.
Calm Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 For LDS beliefs: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng Specifically Jesus: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-3-jesus-christ-our-chosen-leader-and-savior?lang=eng 2
CV75 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Where do you (corporately or individually) disagree with evangelical views on Jesus?See the following links and you can decide on that one, since I've heard varying evangelical views (individually, that is; I can't rightly detect a "corporate" view from what I have heard). The links should also cover most of your other questions--please eel free to ask for any clarification if necessary.https://www.lds.org/topics/jesus-christ?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-gospel-according-to-saint-john/john-1-jesus-is-the-premortal-christ-and-creator?lang=eng Edited January 18, 2015 by CV75
3DOP Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 What do you mean by "only begotten in the flesh" and "first born among the spirits"? Father in what sense? In church today my pastor brought up the passage where Jesus said, "I'm going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." I don't think I've heard of anyone, LDS or evangelical, referring to Jesus as Father. I'm not saying that's not LDS doctrine, I'm just asking for clarification. For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace. 4
3DOP Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Kind Debater... His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the Everlasting Father...That was from the Messiah by Handel...Protestant. My stuff was Catholic. Like many of us, Jesus is a Son, a Brother, and a Father. But where did you get that picture of our Max? Your avatar. We have a Siamese too. The Maxi Taxi. He is just a little guy but he is the king of the house. Everyone bows to the Maxi Taxi. Heh. 1
Vance Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Kind Debater...His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the Everlasting Father...That was from the Messiah by Handel...Protestant. My stuff was Catholic. Like many of us, Jesus is a Son, a Brother, and a Father.But where did you get that picture of our Max? Your avatar. We have a Siamese too. The Maxi Taxi. He is just a little guy but he is the king of the house. Everyone bows to the Maxi Taxi. Heh.Your list here, reminds me of our Primary today. In the LDS church, if you don't know already, it's a group of kids 11 and under that meet each week and worship through song and a short lesson. Our chorister is so all about learning of the Saviour, you would love him. In fact he's the first male chorister I've seen in the Primary, it's usually always women. Back to what I was saying, he had each class write down how many names or titles Jesus has, and they were to write them down on a large lined paper with a marker during each song we sang. He mentioned he'd previously checked on the internet and found 200. I was amazed at how many I thought of, it paled in comparison. I maybe came up with 3 or 4. Just wanted to mention this, maybe you would have had to have been there, this guy makes it easy to go to church. And sorry for the derail.
JAHS Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Because the spirit of Jesus and Satan were both created by Heavenly Father, in that sense only do we regard Satan as the brother of Jesus; they both had the same father.The name Lucifer means "light bearer" in Latin and is a translation of the Hebrew, which means "herald son of dawn" or "morning star." He was also called "son of the morning" by Isaiah (Isa. 14:12). All these titles imply that Satan must have originally been someone of importance in God's eyes. But Satan and his fellow spirits, who were also born spiritually of our heavenly parents, rebelled against God and were cast down to earth, never to receive a body. Even though one might call Jesus and Satan spirit brothers, this does not mean that we believe that Satan is anything like Jesus or like anyone else on this earth. Just as we see the potential for great goodness and great evil in humans around us, so has there always been such potential among the spirit children (Heb. 12:9) of God who are at liberty to choose God and Christ or to choose evil. Satan chose the greatest evil possible and as a result became a "fallen angel" and a total and complete enemy to God and Christ.Jesus is different from us in that He is the first born of Heavenly Father in the spirit and only begotten in the flesh, which means His body is literally and physically the offspring of God the Father's and Mary's physical bodies. He is also considered the God of this earth and universe which He created under the direction of God the Father. Jesus did not create God the Father. The Father created Him and then Jesus created everything else in this universe. 1
Ham Clam Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd probably search the M&D Archives for conversations about this. This subject comes up all the time and goes in circles a lot. The veteran members of this board are sick of it. Not your fault as a newer person. 1
cinepro Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) #1 What exactly is LDS doctrine concerning Jesus and his being the "only begotten" son of God? I've heard that LDS believe we have all existed from eternity past as intelligences which God then organized and/or put into physical bodies. #2 What is the difference between Jesus and other pre-existing intelligences -- did he start out as that? #3 If people are the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, is Jesus one as well? #4 If so, what makes him different from us -- why is he called the only son of God and why is he divine while we aren't? #5 And how did he create everything that has been created if he himself was created to some extent? 1. What Mormons believe about Jesus being the "only begotten." 2. Everything we know about "intelligences." It isn't a lot. 3. Yes. 4. See #1. 5. A Mormon Apostle speaks about Christ and the Creation. It's Bruce R. McConkie though, so feel free to ignore anything he says that you don't agree with. That's what most Mormons do. Edited January 19, 2015 by cinepro
ERayR Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 It's Bruce R. McConkie though, so feel free to ignore anything he says that you don't agree with. That's what most Mormons do. Him and every other prophet and apostle.
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Him and every other prophet and apostle. No, just the ones who are mistaken in doctrine.
thesometimesaint Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Him and every other prophet and apostle. Why should I be required to believe anything that isn't true? 1
ERayR Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Why should I be required to believe anything that isn't true? I did not say you did. I only inferred it was overused.
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