HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 The Book of Mormon is silent on any Mormon teachings and completely agrees with the Creeds except for the modalism texts Read the board guidelines. We do not allow preaching.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 The Book of Mormon is silent on any Mormon teachings and completely agrees with the Creeds except for the modalism texts Yes, yes it is. So, when we bring up valid objections to what you say the best thing to do is just repeat your claim and ignore it. Do you really think that is going to work?
Avatar4321 Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 In what way(s) do LDS say that Evangelical Christians worship a different Jesus? The only argument I've ever heard from the LDS side is that LDS worship the same Jesus, not that Evangelicals worship a different one. Thanks in advance for the clarification. well, I've never said anyone believes a different Jesus than me. But if they claim that we believe in a different Jesus I can only take their word for it and assume they know a Jesus different than the one found in the bible. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 as for being a church of this man Joe Smith, and not a church of Christ Jesus, can you deny that the foundation of your entire religion is the teachings of this one man? if you were a church of Christ, you would honor Him - but wherever the teachings of the Lord Jesus contradict this false prophet of yours, you chose the man, and reject the Savior. "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" says the Lord. but your false teachers tell you that you chose Him. "I and the Father are one" says the Lord. but your false prophets tell you these are different gods, not even gods, but men. "I am not a man" says the Lord. but your self-exalted ones tell you He is a flesh and blood creature, made of dust, as you are. your foundation is not Jesus Christ -- you use His name to snare the innocent and make merchandise of those who follow after His name. as for "stains" -- These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.(Jude 12-13) These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.(Jude 16-19) you puff each other up and appeal to the carnal nature of yourselves, telling each other that you are gods and that you will ascend to the throne and be like the most high. you mention Jah and take on an appearance of godliness to be seen before each other but in your hearts you are motivated by your own vain pride, seeking to exalt yourselves and diminish the glory of the Eternal One. even the Muslims do not consider you "people of the book" i was not sent to pamper you and tickle your ears, but to testify against you. those that love the Truth hate lies, and whoever loves righteousness hates evil. go your way, ban me again, it is no matter. the Lord rebuke you, and He will send another, and another, until your ears are plugged up and scabbed over and you will bear the witness of His glory no more. ban you again?if you are going to act like this it wouldn't surprise me.
Tacenda Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I listened to a show titled "Who is Jesus" with EV's, and they asked LDS to call in and give them scriptures from the Bible or BoM that say Jesus is Lucifer's brother. Has anyone provided any on this thread yet? I'm too lazy to read each scripture listed from different posters, not sure that's even what they're there for. On this show they also discuss that if we teach another Jesus we could be in big trouble. Almost reminded me of the protestors with signs downtown during Gen. Conf. time that say Mormons are going to hell. Never understood completely why and then listening to the EV's say what they did, I connected the dots. Should I be worried? I guess this gives me pause before fully returning to believing the LDS is the only true church. And one other thing they brought up was Joseph Smith being who would say if we go to heaven or not. I know that it's throughout the JoD in places, but seems a little harsh to think only very few will make it since LDS make up only about 1% of the world population. How is JS to know all of us? Pretty sure we no longer believe this to be true though.
Calm Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) "And one other thing they brought up was Joseph Smith being who would say if we go to heaven or not. I know that it's throughout the JoD in places, but seems a little harsh to think only very few will make it since LDS make up only about 1% of the world population. How is JS to know all of us? Pretty sure we no longer believe this to be true though." Huh? CFR on both bold stuff that either was an early belief…that only those who were LDS in this life would make it to heaven (who do you think started doing proxy work to save their dead?) and you had to know Joseph personally to get into heaven Edited January 21, 2015 by calmoriah
Tacenda Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Cal, I can't c/p so I'll just give the reference, JoD Vol. 7 pg. 289, found through internet search. But that's the only one that it brought up, so therefore the EV's saying that there are more references could be wrong. And as for the other bold which I commented that it seemed harsh, it's based on if BY is correct. But as has been mentioned before, prophets aren't infallible and this may be an example of that. But how about the request for scriptures that say Lucifer and Jesus are brothers? I'm sure there is something out there. Edited January 21, 2015 by Tacenda
ERayR Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I listened to a show titled "Who is Jesus" with EV's, and they asked LDS to call in and give them scriptures from the Bible or BoM that say Jesus is Lucifer's brother. Has anyone provided any on this thread yet? I'm too lazy to read each scripture listed from different posters, not sure that's even what they're there for. On this show they also discuss that if we teach another Jesus we could be in big trouble. Almost reminded me of the protestors with signs downtown during Gen. Conf. time that say Mormons are going to hell. Never understood completely why and then listening to the EV's say what they did, I connected the dots. Should I be worried? I guess this gives me pause before fully returning to believing the LDS is the only true church. And one other thing they brought up was Joseph Smith being who would say if we go to heaven or not. I know that it's throughout the JoD in places, but seems a little harsh to think only very few will make it since LDS make up only about 1% of the world population. How is JS to know all of us? Pretty sure we no longer believe this to be true though. Tacenda why so you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Its not that you study these things but the mindset you carry into the study. You remind me of the description an old sheep man once gave me of a sheep. He said a sheep was a bundle of wool looking for a place to die. I have sometimes wondered if that is why the savior called us his sheep.
theplains Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 We teach that he is the father in that sense that he1) brought us salvation2) created the earth on which we dwell3) is our advocate with the Father According to Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Teacher's Manual, "Adam, who was known as Michael in the premortal existence, helped Jehovah create this earth. Others may also have helped with the Creation, as discussed by President Joseph Fielding Smith in Supporting Statements B on pages 16–17 of the student manual (see Doctrines of Salvation, 1:74–77). When you read the Student Manual, it says, "It was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, underthe direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet ... It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth wasformed?" It seems he attributes no creative acts to the Holy Spirit. Maybe those creators of this manualare the Gods of Abraham chapter 4. Regards,Jim
Flyonthewall Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Catholics and Protestants believe in the Jesus of the Book of Mormon who is the self-existent God, Fatherless and Motherless in his life before he became man Mosiah 15:3 Hebrews 7:3 2 Nephi 26:12 Mosiah 3:5 Mosiah 5:15 3 Nephi 19:18 so the Book of Mormon says it's impossible that he was a firstborn son of God the Father and Mother , No-way no-howHere - 2 Nephi 26:12 12And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews , that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God ; Mosiah 3:5 5For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth , who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working... Mosiah 5:15 15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen. 3 Nephi 18 18And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. You show where any mention of substance/essence/being is mentioned or implied. You can't. It's not there. The main difference between our belief and yours is the substance/essence/being thing We believe there are 3 individuals that make up the Godhead, and they are unified. We disagree on the way they are unified. The only reason you see the trinity in there is because that is the background you are coming from.
ERayR Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 According to Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Teacher's Manual, "Adam, who was known as Michael in the premortal existence, helped Jehovah create this earth. Others may also have helped with the Creation, as discussed by President Joseph Fielding Smith in Supporting Statements B on pages 16–17 of the student manual (see Doctrines of Salvation, 1:74–77). When you read the Student Manual, it says, "It was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, underthe direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet ... It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth wasformed?" It seems he attributes no creative acts to the Holy Spirit. Maybe those creators of this manualare the Gods of Abraham chapter 4. Regards,Jim Is there a question in there?
Calm Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) And as for the other bold which I commented that it seemed harsh, it's based on if BY is correct. But as has been mentioned before, prophets aren't infallible and this may be an example of that.I don't buy it until I see it quoted. Misinterpretations and mishearings occur too often to trust the interpretation of someone's interpretation, IMO.Here is the section that contains pg 289 of volume 7.Please show me where it says only LDS will ever reach heaven or that JS has to personally know us.http://journalofdiscourses.com/7/45 Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah
JLHPROF Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I don't buy it until I see it quoted. Misinterpretations and mishearings occur too often to trust the interpretation of someone's interpretation, IMO.Here is the section that contains pg 289 of volume 7.Please show me where it says only LDS will ever reach heaven or that JS has to personally know us.http://journalofdiscourses.com/7/45 Well in all fairness it says: Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will ex claim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true. And I believe it.
Calm Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Consent doesn't mean he has to know us personally. If she just meant that, it was poorly worded. The scriptures say the 12 will judge Israel. The same conditions apply to them as Joseph, it seems to me. Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah 1
theplains Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Is there a question in there? No. Its a clarification to Freedom's point #2. Jim
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) The Book of Mormon is silent on any Mormon teachings and completely agrees with the Creeds except for the modalism texts You are largely ignorant of Mormonism, yet you seem to have anointed yourself an expert on LDS theology. I get the impression you're chortling and snickering as you send post after post, thinking to yourself "I've really got them now," when in reality you've actually got nothing. If you ever decide to take the time to seriously study and ponder the Book of Mormon, there's a good chance you'll stop drawing erroneous conclusions and spare yourself additional embarrassment. Now, for your information there is a very sound and solid reason why the Book of Mormon does not contain some of the greater revelations and advanced doctrinal developments (strong meat) later propounded by the prophet Joseph Smith. The reason why is found within the pages of the Book of Mormon itself. It is my hope that you will carefully read and ponder the following excerpt from the book of 3rd Nephi so that you can learn something and, hopefully, begin to rein in some of your overconfidence (take special note of the portions in bold). 6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people. 8 And these things have I written (the Book of Mormon), which are a LESSER PART of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken. 9 And when they (we modern Gentiles) shall have received this (our present Book of Mormon) , which is expedient that they should have first, TO TRY THEIR FAITH, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things (the Book of Mormon) then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them. 10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things (such as the anti-Mormons), then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation. 11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people. 12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things which have been commanded me of the Lord. And now I, Mormon, make an end of my sayings, and proceed to write the things which have been commanded me. (3 Nephi 26) So although the Book of Mormon does contain a complete and definitive revelation of the fundamental doctrines and principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it absolutely does not contain the "greater things" (i.e. strong meat) of the doctrines and principles pertaining to the kingdom of God. But the prophet Mormon was promised of God that if enough of the latter-day Gentiles (us) accepted the more basic doctrinal presentation in the Book of Mormon, then the "greater things" of the kingdom of God would be revealed thereafter. And that's precisely what happened: enough latter-day Gentiles wholeheartedly embraced the Book of Mormon to get the Restored Church of Christ off to a good start, and as an earnest of the promised reward, some of the "greater things" of the kingdom of God were revealed to them. But why do the anti-Mormons reject and recoil in disgust when they learn of these revealed greater things? It's because, just as Paul forewarned, the spiritually immature and unprepared choke and gag on the "greater things;" and if they do manage to swallowed any of it, they are unable to digest what's in their 'belly' and consequently come to esteem holy things as things of naught. The Scribes, Sadducees and Pharisees gaged and choked on the new revelations of God received in their day and, no surprise, history is repeating itself in these latter-days. By the way, in an earlier post I presented you with the fact that in 1 Nephi 1 the prophet Lehi saw God the Father and Jesus Christ in the form of men, in the same vision, thereby effectively putting the false charge of Book of Mormon trinitarianism and modalism to rest. But in spite of all the above, I'm sad to say i fully expect our modern Sadducees and Pharisees to continue to bark and yap from the sidelines as the caravan to Zion marches on to victory and peace. Edited January 22, 2015 by teddyaware 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 but your false prophets tell you these are different gods, not even gods, but men. I cannot believe in a doctrine that contradicts mathematics and logic. Trinity teaches 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 Simple math says 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 not 1. I cannot believe in a God that lived in ex nihilio
Tacenda Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I don't buy it until I see it quoted. Misinterpretations and mishearings occur too often to trust the interpretation of someone's interpretation, IMO.Here is the section that contains pg 289 of volume 7.Please show me where it says only LDS will ever reach heaven or that JS has to personally know us.http://journalofdiscourses.com/7/45I guess I'm not following you, did you mean CFR on a quote? It was just my opinion other than the reference I provided. And I'll admit, I probably am not very secure in my opinions.8th paragraph from the bottom of your link Cal. So wish I could c/p! Edited January 22, 2015 by Tacenda
Flyonthewall Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Consent doesn't mean he has to know us personally. If she just meant that, it was poorly worded. The scriptures say the 12 will judge Israel. The same conditions apply to them as Joseph, it seems to me.To me it does make sense that Joseph Smith would be a judge akin to the 12 Apostles. I think each prophet that ushered in a dispensation would be a judge for that dispensation. 1
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Teddyaware so the meat we find in the Book of Mormon all agree with Creeds and the mythical missing part has the Mormon part doesn't say much for the BOM
Anakin7 Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Holy Catholic - As for your pre - School reading of the Book of Mormon in relation to your modalism comment read - http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Sabellianism In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 22, 2015 by Anakin7 1
Freedom Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 The Book of Mormon is silent on any Mormon teachings and completely agrees with the Creeds except for the modalism texts Read the board guidelines. We do not allow preaching. We have proven this to be completely false so why do you keep saying this. Oh I know, you are immature and mean spirited. You are everything that Christianity s not. You are proof enough that your religion is false if it produced people who are rude and ignorant. Yes the book of mormon is silent on many teachings. Did it occur to you that this same rule applies to the old testament and your own religion? We keep asking you for examples but all you do is produce the notion of one god. All the other aspects of the creeds are absent.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Teddyaware so the meat we find in the Book of Mormon all agree with Creeds and the mythical missing part has the Mormon part doesn't say much for the BOM As evidenced by the above comment, I don't think you're carefully reading my posts. Perhaps you're not taking proper care to read and absorb my comments because you're afraid to make genuine head-on confrontations with effectively presented points of argument? Please go back and reread my post. The main point you would have gleaned, if you had actually tried to understand what I wrote, is that the abridger of the Book of Mormon (the prophet Mormon) unambiguously declares that the Book of Mormon, as it exists today, contains only a full presentation of the BASIC Gospel of Christ. Further, Mormon tells us he was strictly forbidden, by the Lord Himself, to include the Book of Mormon the"GREATER THINGS" (stronger meat) pertaining to the kingdom of God. Yet in your comment you refer to the Book of Mormon as containing the very meat Mormon said he was forbidden to include in his abridgement. How can I take you seriously when you're so dismissive of my source materials and so careless and/or disrespectful of my own carefully-researched understanding of my own religion? As for the Trinity: there's no sense getting into that until you can define what the common substance is that brings perfect unity to the individual personages of the Godhead. As I understand it, in Trinitarianism, the nature of the unifying substance is an incomprehensible mystery. So until you can define your terms and solve the mystery of what the substance is that brings divine unity, there's not much more to say. As I've stated before, I personally believe the holy substance the unifies the saints with each other, that unifies the saints with God, and unifies the members of the Godhead with each other, is the uncreated Spirit of Truth. So here are 2 questions for you: 1 Do you believe there is a unity of Spirit that exists among the individual persons of the Godhead? 2 If the answer to question 1 is yes, do you believe the Spirit that unifies the Godhead is the same Spirit that unifies the saints with the Godhead? Edited January 22, 2015 by teddyaware
Anakin7 Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Catholic critic HOLY CATHOLIC and our past Catholic friend that posted here some time ago David Waltz are/were light years in there postings. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 22, 2015 by Anakin7
Freedom Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 According to Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Teacher's Manual, "Adam, who was known as Michael in the premortal existence, helped Jehovah create this earth. Others may also have helped with the Creation, as discussed by President Joseph Fielding Smith in Supporting Statements B on pages 16–17 of the student manual (see Doctrines of Salvation, 1:74–77). When you read the Student Manual, it says, "It was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, underthe direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet ... It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth wasformed?" It seems he attributes no creative acts to the Holy Spirit. Maybe those creators of this manualare the Gods of Abraham chapter 4. Regards,Jim Sorry, I don't follow.
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