Jeanne Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I don't know about a different Jesus...but in my humble opinion, I believe going from one church to another or leaving a church changes the perspective of God.sure did for me. The New Testament IS the Savior when those written words are compared to the God of the Old Testament. We could talk all day about what the atonement did to the changes between the two..but that does help to hold on to the belief that God is the same yesterday, today and always.
Bobbieaware Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 DNA wasn't discovered until well after all the early brethren of the restoration were long dead. Logical conclusions may be valid or they may be invalid for exactly the same reason(s).My post was intended to extend the logic of the early brethren concerning Like 2 to a modern audience because we NOW know a son always has his father's DNA.
Calm Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? Moderators, Please ban HOLY CATHOLIC, he is an anti-mormon street preacher.You need to use the report function as mods don't always read threads
Levi951 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Don't believe first vision story since Joseph Smith in 1835 was still teaching God the Father was a personage of Spirit and said Jesus was a personage of tabernacle so he compared the difference in the Lectures Of Faith Some things in the accounts stick out to me and its cool because they are totally biblical check out what I mean. Read it through tell me what you think. "While fervently engaged in supplication, my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noonday." wentworth letter March 1, 1842 "At this sacred moment, the natural world around him was excluded from his view, so that he would be open to the presentation of heavenly and spiritual things. Two glorious personages stood before him, resembling each other exactly in features and stature." Orson Hyde 1842 -Ein Ruf aus der Wuste Hebrews 1:2-3 "2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by who also he made the worlds; 3.Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" Colossians 1:15 "15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,"ST John 14:1-11"1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) The dates 1884 stick out Lectures of Faith - 1835 Edited February 9, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
Levi951 Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 The dates 1884 stick out Lectures of Faith - 1835wait what do you mean?
Levi951 Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 What do you mean "just a son of god?" Is Yahweh just a son of El Elyon, as DSS Deut. 32:8-9 says?For some better context to take to the Book of Mormon, try this, and watch what happens.http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdfFWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PAWhat happened to that link you posted on Christ role in cleansing the temple?
Kevin Christensen Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 What happened to that link you posted on Christ role in cleansing the temple?I think you are referring to the link in post 237, the text of Margaret Barker's talk in Yonkers, at the Greek Orthodox Seminary. It is still there. Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA
Levi951 Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 I think you are referring to the link in post 237, the text of Margaret Barker's talk in Yonkers, at the Greek Orthodox Seminary. It is still there.Kevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PAWhy have I never heard of this? It's awesome! Do you have anymore of articles like this one?
Spammer Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) This might help.http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/OurGreatHighPriest.pdfFWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PA This is speculative, as Prof. Barker isn't LDS, but if she were to become a church member and take out her endowment, would she think the Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the LDS temple liturgy is closest to her reconstruction of the ancient liturgy of the first temple in Jerusalem? That's something I've wondered about for a long time. Of course, as someone who has read Barker, and who is an Eastern Orthodox Christian who was previously LDS and temple endowed (pre-1990), I have my own take on the issue. Edited February 10, 2015 by Spammer
Kevin Christensen Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Why have I never heard of this? It's awesome! Do you have anymore of articles like this one?I've been spreading the word on Barker since 1999. She has several important books, many online articles, and courtesy of a tech savy daughter, an excellent website. www.margaretbarker.com Most of my essays on Barker's work are conveniently linked at Howard Hopkin's excellent website here: http://www.thinlyveiled.com/barker.htm He also has links some some Barker essays not linked at her own website, including her take on the Book of Mormon: http://www.joehunt.org/joseph-smith-margaret-barker-talk.html Enjoy, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited February 10, 2015 by Kevin Christensen 1
Kevin Christensen Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 This is speculative, as Prof. Barker isn't LDS, but if she were to become a church member and take out her endowment, would she think the Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the LDS temple liturgy is closest to her reconstruction of the ancient liturgy of the first temple in Jerusalem? That's something I've wondered about for a long time. Of course, as someone who has read Barker, and who is an Eastern Orthodox Christian who was previously LDS and temple endowed (pre-1990), I have my own take on the issue. After listening to Margaret's talk in Yonkers, my wife and I attended the Orthodox Vespers in the evening and were both very impressed with all of the temple themes we recognized there. And by the wonderful singing. We were introduced to Metropolitan Jonah, a lovely man, who treated us like visiting dignitaries. Also, before Margaret's talk, she told us that she'd told them that if they were serious about the temple, that they needed to swallow their pride and ask the Mormons, because we have the best scholars on the topic. Of course, any liturgy will have cultural overlays due to the inescapable requirement that the ritual needs to communicate to people according to their language and understanding. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 1
Spammer Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 After listening to Margaret's talk in Yonkers, my wife and I attended the Orthodox Vespers in the evening and were both very impressed with all of the temple themes we recognized there. And by the wonderful singing. We were introduced to Metropolitan Jonah, a lovely man, who treated us like visiting dignitaries. Also, before Margaret's talk, she told us that she'd told them that if they were serious about the temple, that they needed to swallow their pride and ask the Mormons, because we have the best scholars on the topic.Of course, any liturgy will have cultural overlays due to the inescapable requirement that the ritual needs to communicate to people according to their language and understanding.FWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PA Indeed. I'm glad you got to attend Vespers in Yonkers and meet Metropolitan Jonah and Margaret Barker. It must have been remarkable.
teddyaware Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) After listening to Margaret's talk in Yonkers, my wife and I attended the Orthodox Vespers in the evening and were both very impressed with all of the temple themes we recognized there. And by the wonderful singing. We were introduced to Metropolitan Jonah, a lovely man, who treated us like visiting dignitaries. Also, before Margaret's talk, she told us that she'd told them that if they were serious about the temple, that they needed to swallow their pride and ask the Mormons, because we have the best scholars on the topic.Of course, any liturgy will have cultural overlays due to the inescapable requirement that the ritual needs to communicate to people according to their language and understanding.FWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PA While at the same lecture, I also was approached by Metropolitan Jonah (the highest prelate in the Orthodox Church in America). He was extremely kind and cordial and as we conversed he expressed the desire that a dialogue be opened between his Orthodox Church in America and the Latter-day Saints (later that same night Margaret told me she was the one who put Jonah up to it). I was flabbergasted but tried hard to restrain my excitement. I told the Metropolitan I would get word of his request to someone in the Church who would have the clout and connections needed to be able to successfully inform the Church leaders of his request. Not really knowing who would be the best person to contact, I decided to call Jack Welch because I was informed by UK friends of mine (they're close to Margaret) that brother Welch was a good possibility because he was acquainted with Margaret. After some preliminaries, I informed brother Welch of what I presumed was Metropolitan Jonah's very important and significant request for dialogue. He responded by saying "that's nice" and then basically hung upon me. I guess the Metropolitan's request for dIalogue with the LDS Church wasn't as momentous as I first thought it was. Edited February 11, 2015 by teddyaware
Spammer Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) While at the same lecture, I also was approached by Metropolitan Jonah (the highest prelate in the Orthodox Church in America). He was extremely kind and cordial and as we conversed he expressed the desire that a dialogue be opened between his Orthodox Church in America and the Latter-day Saints (later that same night Margaret told me she was the one who put Jonah up to it). I was flabbergasted but tried hard to restrain my excitement. I told the Metropolitan I would get word of his request to someone in the Church who would have the clout and connections needed to be able to successfully inform the Church leaders of his request.Not really knowing who would be the best person to contact, I decided to call Jack Welch because I was informed by UK friends of mine (they're close to Margaret) that brother Welch was a good possibility because he was acquainted with Margaret. After some preliminaries, I informed brother Welch of what I presumed was Metropolitan Jonah's very important and significant request for dialogue. He responded by saying "that's nice" and then basically hung upon me. I guess the Metropolitan's request for dIalogue with the LDS Church wasn't as momentous as I first thought it was.That's unfortunate. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that Metropolitan Jonah was head of only one of 22 self-governing churches (jurisdictions) that comprise the Eastern Orthodox Church. There may have been more interest if it was the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul, the first among equals among the churches, who had expressed interest in dialogue. Edited February 12, 2015 by Spammer
teddyaware Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 That's unfortunate. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that Metropolitan Jonah was head of only one of 22 self-governing churches (jurisdictions) that comprise the Eastern Orthodox Church. There may have been more interest if it was the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul, the first among equals among the churches, who had expressed interest in dialogue. There are 95,000 OCA members. That's not exactly a statistic to sneeze at. For a Church that could use a sympathetic and understanding ear, it's a lost opportunity because Jonah is no longer the Metropolitan.
Calm Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Maybe Brother Welch didn't think it was appropriate for him to play that role and he didn't realize you were depending on him to follow through on it. Maybe you caught him at a really bad time, family crisis, he was quite sick or something. Why didn't you call up someone in SLC, some general receptionist or the PA people and ask for someone who deals with interfaith relations? Edited February 12, 2015 by calmoriah 1
Spammer Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 There are 95,000 OCA members. That's not exactly a statistic to sneeze at. For a Church that could use a sympathetic and understanding ear, it's a lost opportunity because Jonah is no longer the Metropolitan.I agree with you. It is a lost opportunity and it's unfortunate. The OCA is my jurisdiction, btw. I was only suggesting that there may have been more interest in SLC if it was the representative of all 280 million Eastern Orthodox Christians, and not the representative of the OCA's small share of the total, who had desired dialogue. I'm confident that if you had called SLC and told them the Ecumenical Patriarch had asked you to set up a meeting that you would have gotten a different response.
Spammer Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 There are 95,000 OCA members. That's not exactly a statistic to sneeze at. For a Church that could use a sympathetic and understanding ear, it's a lost opportunity because Jonah is no longer the Metropolitan.I agree with you. It is a lost opportunity and it's unfortunate. The OCA is my jurisdiction, btw. I was only suggesting that there may have been more interest in SLC if it was the representative of all 280 million Eastern Orthodox Christians, and not the representative of the OCA's small share of the total, who had desired dialogue. I'm confident that if you had called SLC and told them the Ecumenical Patriarch, or even the Patriarch of Moscow, had asked you to set up a meeting that you would have gotten a different response.
Calm Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 I agree with you. It is a lost opportunity and it's unfortunate. The OCA is my jurisdiction, btw. I was only suggesting that there may have been more interest in SLC if it was the representative of all 280 million Eastern Orthodox Christians, and not the representative of the OCA's small share of the total, who had desired dialogue. I'm confident that if you had called SLC and told them the Ecumenical Patriarch had asked you to set up a meeting that you would have gotten a different response.Jack Welch is not someone in SLC, he is (was?) a BYU professor and is connected with the Maxwell Institute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Welch
Spammer Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Jack Welch is not someone in SLC, he is (was?) a BYU professor and is connected with the Maxwell Institute.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._WelchAh, I missed that part. Thanks.
mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 I think you might find that our own Robert F. Smith has a good connection with Jack Welch, if that is even relevant at this point.
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