teddyaware Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) Yahweh does not have a Father period . He is the self existing GOD fatherless and motherless Hebrews 7:3 Three things: 1) Hebrews 7:3 has reference to the fact that, unlike the Aaronic Priesthood, the order of Melchizedek Priesthood is not passed down by way of the lineal descent (DNA) of Aaron to his descendants. In other words, holding the Melchizedek Priesthood does not require an earthly father and mother of a certain chosen lineage. 2) it's an official doctrine of the LDS Church that Christ always existed as a Holy Intelligence, even before He became the Firstborn of all creation in the preexistence (much in the same way He existed as the Christ prior to being born of a mother and Father here on earth). Just as his divinity isn't negated by being born of a Father and mother here on earth, so also His eternal divinity isn't negated by His being the Firstborn of God the Father before the foundation of the world. Now you must understand that , just like you, the Latter-day Saints really do believe Christ had no beginning, so you're going to have to go back to the drawing board on this one. 2) If the resurrected and perfected Christ, as per your interpretation of Hebrews 7:3, has no father or mother, then why does He actually have a father and a mother? It doesn't seem that having a father and a mother, who gave Him his earthly body, detracts one iota from His divinity. A fully knowledgeable Latter-day Saint can easily handle your arguments against the LDS faith. Edited February 4, 2015 by teddyaware 1
JLHPROF Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Yahweh does not have a Father period . He is the self existing GOD fatherless and motherless Hebrews 7:3 Hebrews 7:3 speaks of the great High Priest Melchezidek who was "made like unto the Son of God". Do you really believe that either he or Christ had no mother or father? This has nothing to do with Yahweh.Do you really believe that Melchezidek was, like Christ, without beginning or end? How did a mortal being achieve such an existence? Really not sure where you are going with this one.
pogi Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Yahweh does not have a Father period . He is the self existing GOD fatherless and motherless Hebrews 7:3 He had both an earthly father and a heavenly father. He conversed with his earthly father AND his heavenly father. He was known as the son of man AND the Son of God. He relinquished his own will for his fathers.
Guest Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 In another discussion group, I've seen the claim repeatedly brought up that LDS and evangelicals believe in different versions of Jesus, with each side claiming the other side's version of Jesus does not match the Bible. I've heard that LDS doctrine states that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are brothers and that emphasis is placed on Jesus being the begotten Son of God, but I'm not clear on what LDS teaching is concerning Jesus prior to his earthly birth.So my questions are:Where do you (corporately or individually) disagree with evangelical views on Jesus?What exactly is LDS doctrine concerning Jesus and his being the "only begotten" son of God? I've heard that LDS believe we have all existed from eternity past as intelligences which God then organized and/or put into physical bodies. What is the difference between Jesus and other pre-existing intelligences -- did he start out as that? If people are the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, is Jesus one as well? If so, what makes him different from us -- why is he called the only son of God and why is he divine while we aren't? And how did he create everything that has been created if he himself was created to some extent?When others say that "our Jesus" (silly term) does not match the Bible, they really mean the Nicene Creed 325AD (if memory serves). What the real question is; is our view of Christ, theologically and physically correct? Articles of Faith#1 We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Commentary: We believe that there are three beings, co-equal and co-eternal. One God, in unity and perfection...and "one" as spell out in John 17th chapter. In Christ's "Intercessory prayer" he defines what it means to be "one" Therefore our view is Trinitarian as defined by scripture and not by the Nicene Creed. So yes, we have the right Jesus.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Yahweh does not have a Father period . He is the self existing GOD fatherless and motherless Hebrews 7:3Islam likewise declares that "God does not beget and is not begotten." However, your claim about Hebrews 7:3 is false. It says there only that Melchizedek is "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." You might want to read for context, and then puzzle out how a human cannot have a mother and father. The reference is to the timelessness of his priesthood. As Father Joseph Fitzmyer (Society of Jesus) says of the Melchizedek text from Qumran cave 11: If we had not recovered this text about Melchizedek . . , would we ever have understood correctly what was meant by Heb 7:3 and its affirmation about him? If Melchizedek were indeed thought of by pre-Christian Jews as a heavenly redemption figure who performed a priestly function (expiation) for the men of his lot, then one can see how the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews could depict Christ, . . as a “priest according to the order of Melchizedek.” * * Fitzmyer, The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christian Origins (Eerdmans, 2000), 39. 4
carbon dioxide Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) Yahweh does not have a Father period . He is the self existing GOD fatherless and motherless Hebrews 7:3Then Jesus is not God as he did have a mother. In fact the only person in the scriptures that one declare as without father and mother is Adam. (And that may not be true as Genesis 2:24 gives a strong impression that Adam had a father and mother. "Therefore shall a man [Adam being used as an example] leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.") Edited February 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) I do believe Yahweh is JESUS and as the God of the Old Testament was with out a Father or Mother . Yahweh did appear to Abraham as Melchizedek I am not a Roman Catholic but Holy Catholic as so stated in the Apostles Creed or Holy Priesthood "Peter" Edited February 5, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
Anakin7 Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 So Jesus is Yahweh and God of the O.T = correct [ He - Jesus Christ who is the Vice Monarch of the Universe is also under the authority of God The Father The Monarch of The Universe ] when he [ Jesus Christ] came to Earth he was raised by Joseph and Mary - his earthly parents. So are you a renagade Catholic from Roman Catholoicism ?. Or on your own ?. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
pogi Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Yahweh did appear to Abraham as Melchizedek Why not just send Melchizedek? Seems a little deceptive to me. 1
Storm Rider Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 I do believe Yahweh is JESUS and as the God of the Old Testament was with out a Father or Mother . Yahweh did appear to Abraham as Melchizedek I am not a Roman Catholic but Holy Catholic as so stated in the Apostles Creed or Holy Priesthood "Peter" Hello Holy Catholic, I realize that you are not Roman Catholic, but do you have a reference for the Yahweh/Melchizedek statement above? I have not read that before as a statement from others, but this is a rather narrow topic and it would have been easy for me to miss.
JLHPROF Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 I do believe Yahweh is JESUS and as the God of the Old Testament I differ from my fellow LDS members in that I don't. Yahweh did appear to Abraham as Melchizedek Oh. Ok. That's what you were getting at. Melchezidek is just Jehovah, not a mortal man. CFR (and don't give me Heb 7:3, that's not what it was saying). I would like an OT CFR where Melchezidek the person identifies themself as deity.
Kevin Christensen Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 This might help. http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/OurGreatHighPriest.pdf FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 I do believe Yahweh is JESUS and as the God of the Old Testament was with out a Father or Mother . Yahweh did appear to Abraham as Melchizedek I am not a Roman Catholic but Holy Catholic as so stated in the Apostles Creed or Holy Priesthood "Peter" Abraham paid his tithes to Melchizedek. The Scripture don't say he paid them Yahweh.
mfbukowski Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 This might help.http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/OurGreatHighPriest.pdfFWIWKevin ChristensenCanonsburg, PAOh heck. 15 pages? Are you kidding me? Why would I actually want to put some work into learning stuff when I can just argue out of ignorance? 2
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) No where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the Mormon Jesus who was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father. In fact it teaches Jesus was fatherless until the flesh Mosiah 15:3 "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name" 3 Nephi 9:15 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God [conceived by the power of God the Father] ;and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son" Mosiah 15:3 Jesus is a Father because God the Father gave him his power. The Trinity still contradicts Mathematics. Edited February 5, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Oh heck. 15 pages? Are you kidding me? Why would I actually want to put some work into learning stuff when I can just argue out of ignorance? That does seem to be what is going on. I mean I am just trying to have an honest conversation about HC intent. So far I have been ignored.
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 If Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek then he must have been YAHWEH, who else than God would get tithes
Calm Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Priests used to collect tithes....does that mean they were God?
teddyaware Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 If Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek then he must have been YAHWEH, who else than God would get tithes You've got to be joking -- right? When they pass the collection plate around in non-LDS church services, is God the one who passes the plate or counts the money? I'm beginning to think you're playing us. In fact, if I had to hazzard a guess I'd say you are playing us. 1
pogi Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) who else than God would get tithes Ummm...Melchizedek? If Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek then he must have been YAHWEH Would that make you a quadrinarian as opposed to a trinitarian? 4 persons, same essence, same God? Melchizedek was a priest of YAHWEH (Gen. 14:18), not YAHWEH. Melchizedek was "like unto" the son of God (Heb 7:3), not the son of God. Melchizedek was the king of Salem (Psa. 76:2), not the King of heaven and earth. See the difference? Edited February 5, 2015 by pogi
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 If Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek then he must have been YAHWEH, who else than God would get tithes That is a logical fallacy
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Melchezedek had no Father, Jesus had no Father until the flesh Mosiah 15:3 so that means both were the self-existing God Hebrews 7:3
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Jesus had no Father until the flesh Mosiah 15:3 so that means both were the self-existing God Hebrews 7:3 That is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, you are not Trinitarian.
carbon dioxide Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Melchezedek had no Father, Jesus had no Father until the flesh Mosiah 15:3 so that means both were the self-existing God Hebrews 7:3Adam had no father so that means he also was part of the self-existing God? Hebrews 7:3??? Unless of course one interprets Genesis 2:24 to mean that Adam had a father and a mother. That opens a new can of worms. If we are going to say that Melchezedek literally did not have a father or mother, the best candidate in the scriptures to be Melchezedek is Adam. Edited February 6, 2015 by carbon dioxide
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