Divorce

[The Nehor]

well, yeah the screw up came in not knowing about the person's behaviour prior to marriage or knew that they would be a tomcat

No, I meant in most (though not all) cases both parties are sinning and contribute to a failed marriage. There are probably exceptions to the rule but I have never seen one. Amazingly both parties always seem to think they are the victim.

[Duncan]

No, I meant in most (though not all) cases both parties are sinning and contribute to a failed marriage. There are probably exceptions to the rule but I have never seen one. Amazingly both parties always seem to think they are the victim.

 

 

Elder Oaks gave that great talk shared an example "When a marriage is dead and beyond hope of resuscitation, it is needful to have a means to end it. I saw examples of this in the Philippines. Two days after their temple marriage, a husband deserted his young wife and has not been heard from for over 10 years"

[Maestrophil]

No, I meant in most (though not all) cases both parties are sinning and contribute to a failed marriage. There are probably exceptions to the rule but I have never seen one. Amazingly both parties always seem to think they are the victim.

 

 

I feel this kind of view can be very hurtful to divorced members trying to figure out their place in the church.  I am currently 4 years re-married after a divorce 5 years ago.  I am just now getting my bearings straight as far as not feeling terribly about my place in the church.  I am serving as the YM president in my ward. 

 

Knowing that I can't be called to certain callings makes me feel hurt as I did not initiate nor desire my divorce.  My wife did indeed carry on a year long hidden affair, then left me and the kids for that other person.  Was my marriage perfect?  Of course not.  Did I do anything worthy of that kind of betrayal or divorce even?  No.  Yet somehow my ex-wife seems to think so and spread her version of the story to her family and friends that are LDS (even though she no longer is active).  It hurts and angers me to think there are members out there who would not be willing to see that there are "One sided" divorces.  Through the whole ordeal, I remained worthy of a recommend and never violated my temple covenants to my wife.

 

SO why should there be a stain on a brother or sister in my position.  It is definitely one of my "on the shelf" issues with the church.

 

MP

[Duncan]

I feel this kind of view can be very hurtful to divorced members trying to figure out their place in the church.  I am currently 4 years re-married after a divorce 5 years ago.  I am just now getting my bearings straight as far as not feeling terribly about my place in the church.  I am serving as the YM president in my ward. 

 

Knowing that I can't be called to certain callings makes me feel hurt as I did not initiate nor desire my divorce.  My wife did indeed carry on a year long hidden affair, then left me and the kids for that other person.  Was my marriage perfect?  Of course not.  Did I do anything worthy of that kind of betrayal or divorce even?  No.  Yet somehow my ex-wife seems to think so and spread her version of the story to her family and friends that are LDS (even though she no longer is active).  It hurts and angers me to think there are members out there who would not be willing to see that there are "One sided" divorces.  Through the whole ordeal, I remained worthy of a recommend and never violated my temple covenants to my wife.

 

SO why should there be a stain on a brother or sister in my position.  It is definitely one of my "on the shelf" issues with the church.

 

MP

 

 

I am in your boat as well, legally divorced since '07 but not with her since '05, it's stupid to think that their are callings and stigma that divorced members can't have. I recall being an exec. sec. in my ward and a lady wasn't called to be the primary pres. simply because she was divorced, entirely forgetting in the next ward over the entire Primary Presidency has been divorced!!!

[The Nehor]

I feel this kind of view can be very hurtful to divorced members trying to figure out their place in the church.  I am currently 4 years re-married after a divorce 5 years ago.  I am just now getting my bearings straight as far as not feeling terribly about my place in the church.  I am serving as the YM president in my ward. 

 

Knowing that I can't be called to certain callings makes me feel hurt as I did not initiate nor desire my divorce.  My wife did indeed carry on a year long hidden affair, then left me and the kids for that other person.  Was my marriage perfect?  Of course not.  Did I do anything worthy of that kind of betrayal or divorce even?  No.  Yet somehow my ex-wife seems to think so and spread her version of the story to her family and friends that are LDS (even though she no longer is active).  It hurts and angers me to think there are members out there who would not be willing to see that there are "One sided" divorces.  Through the whole ordeal, I remained worthy of a recommend and never violated my temple covenants to my wife.

 

SO why should there be a stain on a brother or sister in my position.  It is definitely one of my "on the shelf" issues with the church.

 

MP

Lots of true things are hurtful but I do not think we should avoid saying them to spare feelings. I am single and scriptures and the teaching of prophets tell me I cannot be exalted until I remedy this situation and I am trying and failing. I also cannot hold certain callings. Is the teaching hurtful? A little bit. Is is also true? Yes.

I obviously know nothing about your situation and cannot apportion blame between you and your ex but it is exactly as I described. You complain about her making herself the victim while you cast yourself as a victim. Both of you are probably convinced you are right.

As to stains we spend too much time quibbling over the severity of the stain and not enough washing them out. If God has forgiven you then do not worry so much about what church members think of your "stain".

[Maestrophil]

Lots of true things are hurtful but I do not think we should avoid saying them to spare feelings. I am single and scriptures and the teaching of prophets tell me I cannot be exalted until I remedy this situation and I am trying and failing. I also cannot hold certain callings. Is the teaching hurtful? A little bit. Is is also true? Yes.

I obviously know nothing about your situation and cannot apportion blame between you and your ex but it is exactly as I described. You complain about her making herself the victim while you cast yourself as a victim. Both of you are probably convinced you are right.

As to stains we spend too much time quibbling over the severity of the stain and not enough washing them out. If God has forgiven you then do not worry so much about what church members think of your "stain".

 

You made my point...  your statement is not "true" - it is your perception.  And your singleness can be undone.  My divorce can not. 

 

Your assumption that "both of us are convinced we are right" is offensive on its' face.  A spouse who has an affair and leaves IS at fault. Period.  Why do you assume I needed to be forgiven of anything regarding my divorce?  Even this implies that you see divorce as an offense that needs pardoning on my part.  I do not feel that is the case at all.

 

I am not so much worried about what members think - but rather, it is difficult to understand why from an institutional point of view, the church considers me unfit for certain roles while never having been unworthy in deed of performing them.

 

MPE

 

EDIT to add:  BTW I should point out that I have yet to see official instruction from the church that divorced brethren are not to be called to be bishops as per the OP's question.  It seems in "the mission field" where the church may have less choice in leadership options it may occur more frequently than here in "Zion".  So It could just be one of those cultural norms that has become unspoken "law".

Edited December 30, 2014 by Maestrophil

[Duncan]

You made my point...  your statement is not "true" - it is your perception.  And your singleness can be undone.  My divorce can not. 

 

Your assumption that "both of us are convinced we are right" is offensive on its' face.  A spouse who has an affair and leaves IS at fault. Period.  Why do you assume I needed to be forgiven of anything regarding my divorce?  Even this implies that you see divorce as an offense that needs pardoning on my part.  I do not feel that is the case at all.

 

I am not so much worried about what members think - but rather, it is difficult to understand why from an institutional point of view, the church considers me unfit for certain roles while never having been unworthy in deed of performing them.

 

MPE

 

EDIT to add:  BTW I should point out that I have yet to see official instruction from the church that divorced brethren are not to be called to be bishops as per the OP's question.  It seems in "the mission field" where the church may have less choice in leadership options it may occur more frequently than here in "Zion".  So It could just be one of those cultural norms that has become unspoken "law".

 

 

that's the thing that gets me, I live in the mission field, our ward alone has lost 100 or so strong members to move-outs, death and inactivity in the last 3-4 years. Our stake is a skeleton of what it used to be so like the stories I can tell you baffle me still-I.e our Patriarch went inactive a few years ago....since 2000 3 Bishops of a ward here have gone totally inactive

[The Nehor]

You made my point...  your statement is not "true" - it is your perception.  And your singleness can be undone.  My divorce can not.

No, it is pretty true. Maybe somewhere out there there is a divorce where one side is entirely innocent but in every case I have seen and in every case shared with me blame is shared....though admittedly in many cases one side shoulders a larger portion of the blame.

Your assumption that "both of us are convinced we are right" is offensive on its' face.  A spouse who has an affair and leaves IS at fault. Period.  Why do you assume I needed to be forgiven of anything regarding my divorce?  Even this implies that you see divorce as an offense that needs pardoning on my part.  I do not feel that is the case at all.

It is offensive to say you were both convinced you were in the right while you are here protesting you were in the right while complaining that she is telling others she was in the right? It is not an assumption. It is what you said. I did not say both (or either) of you were right.

As to a spouse having an affair always being at fault I almost always agree. To say that that makes the divorce primarily their fault....maybe, probably but not always. I think of a girl I know who was married to a physically and emotionally abusive husband. He controlled her movements and her life in every way he could to cut her off from outside support. She had an affair out of a desperate need to feel close to someone. It was wrong of her but when the divorce came I would not place the blame on her. He did. He was the perfect husband in his mind until his evil cheating wife broke his heart. And no, I am not saying you beat your wife. You might have. You might have been the sweetest husband to ever live. Most likely you were neither.

Why am I assuming you need repentance? Because you are human and we all need it. Even if you contributed almost nothing to the breakup of the marriage that almost nothing needs repenting of. Perhaps more importantly repenting helps us to forgive the other side.

I am not so much worried about what members think - but rather, it is difficult to understand why from an institutional point of view, the church considers me unfit for certain roles while never having been unworthy in deed of performing them.

 

EDIT to add:  BTW I should point out that I have yet to see official instruction from the church that divorced brethren are not to be called to be bishops as per the OP's question.  It seems in "the mission field" where the church may have less choice in leadership options it may occur more frequently than here in "Zion".  So It could just be one of those cultural norms that has become unspoken "law".

There is no official decree on this but divorce is heavily considered when selecting a Bishop. Divorced men are usually only called as Bishop when no other reasonable option is available.

[Buzzard]

Yeah, pretty much. We have a lot of yahoos in the Church. I know of a bishop who left his wife to run off with the relief society president, a ward where the police had to come every other week on average to break up fights in sacrament meeting, a Stake President who rightly called one of his wards the "Fornicating Fifth Ward". I know this is a bad habit but looking at all the screw ups in the church makes me feel like I am doing pretty good.

Don't make me nervous. I'm in the Fifth Ward.  Hopefully a different stake. 

[Rob Osborn]

where does it say in official church handbooks on what positions married, single, or divorced members can have?

[ERayR]

Yeah, pretty much. We have a lot of yahoos in the Church. I know of a bishop who left his wife to run off with the relief society president, a ward where the police had to come every other week on average to break up fights in sacrament meeting, a Stake President who rightly called one of his wards the "Fornicating Fifth Ward". I know this is a bad habit but looking at all the screw ups in the church makes me feel like I am doing pretty good.

Some wards truly have farther to go than others

Edited December 30, 2014 by ERayR

[bluebell]

Whenever someone who's never been married tries to expound upon marriage, it's pretty much like those people who have all those theories about raising children, who've never actually had kids.  

 

We all think we know a lot more about things that we've never experienced than we actually do.  

[Calm]

Zing by a bluebell....

[The Nehor]

Whenever someone who's never been married tries to expound upon marriage, it's pretty much like those people who have all those theories about raising children, who've never actually had kids.

We all think we know a lot more about things that we've never experienced than we actually do.

I was not expounding on marriage. I was expounding on divorce. Are we limiting discussion on that topic to those who have divorced?

While I have never been divorced when you get to my age and are still single and are not an antisocial shutin you experience a lot of failed relationships and end up peers with a lot of people with failed marriages. It is an informative experience. Sadly it is depressingly informative or informatively depressing; take your pick.

Edited December 30, 2014 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

Don't make me nervous. I'm in the Fifth Ward.  Hopefully a different stake.

Ward was split a few years ago and got a new name. You are safe......unless there is more then one of them.....

[bluebell]

I was not expounding on marriage. I was expounding on divorce. Are we limiting discussion on that topic to those who have divorced?

 

Not at all.  Just keeping your comments in perspective.

 

Kind of like, if there was a discussion going on about rock climbing, or surfing, for example, anyone could comment and anyone could have good valuable things to say, but the comments from the person who had never been rock climbing or surfing wouldn't hold as much weight or necessarily be as valid as those from someone who had done those things for years.

 

While I have never been divorced when you get to my age and are still single and are not an antisocial shutin you experience a lot of failed relationships and end up peers with a lot of people with failed marriages. It is an informative experience. Sadly it is depressingly informative or informatively depressing; take your pick.

 

I have no doubt!

 

I sincerely wish for you the opportunity to some day have the pleasure and blessing to do what all those people who have so many ideas about child-care (from watching their friends/relatives with kids and babysitting) do once they have their own:  happily sit back and proclaim what idiots they used to be.  

[The Nehor]

I sincerely wish for you the opportunity to some day have the pleasure and blessing to do what all those people who have so many ideas about child-care (from watching their friends/relatives with kids and babysitting) do once they have their own:  happily sit back and proclaim what idiots they used to be.  

I think you missed my point. I wish I knew less about divorce and broken relationships then I do because I would probably be happier. I look back and wish I was an ignorant idiot.

The troubles of marriage and childcare have a purpose and can be won and happiness found. I admit to some ignorance in those areas and hope that one day I can look back as a grateful idiot.

Not sure at this point though. I may have won the lottery and get to be a (metaphorical) eunuch for the kingdom's sake for reasons I do not understand and God Does not seem to want to share.

[bluebell]

I think you missed my point. I wish I knew less about divorce and broken relationships then I do because I would probably be happier. I look back and wish I was an ignorant idiot.

 

No, i got that's what you were saying.

 

My point is that once you are married you will discover how little you knew before about it.  And I'm not saying that as an insult-it's just a reality.  Some things we have to experience.    Hearing about the experiences of others can certainly be educational, but divorced (haha) from the emotions involved it makes it difficult to process what its actually like living in the situation (even when we truly feel sorrow on another's behalf, it's still not the same as being in the throes of it ourselves).

 

But happy successful marriages certainly do exist so do not despair on that part.

[The Nehor]

No, i got that's what you were saying.

 

My point is that once you are married you will discover how little you knew before about it.  And I'm not saying that as an insult-it's just a reality.  Some things we have to experience.    Hearing about the experiences of others can certainly be educational, but divorced (haha) from the emotions involved it makes it difficult to process what its actually like living in the situation (even when we truly feel sorrow on another's behalf, it's still not the same as being in the throes of it ourselves).

 

But happy successful marriages certainly do exist so do not despair on that part.

But we were talking about divorce, not marriage. I know little about marriage. I try not to comment on it much for that reason.

[Garden Girl]

No, I meant in most (though not all) cases both parties are sinning and contribute to a failed marriage. There are probably exceptions to the rule but I have never seen one. Amazingly both parties always seem to think they are the victim.

 

Hello Nehor...

I do agree that no one is perfect... and when it comes to marriage and then divorce, more often than not it does take two to create the divorce...

But you also said there could be exceptions, but you had not seen one... well... there is my mom and biological dad... My mom absolutely adored my dad.  He was the proverbial love of her life.  But mom was a homebody, who loved taking care of her home and husband, and their two little girls.  Dad on the other hand was a good time kind of guy, which was okay during high school... and mom married him right out of high school.  Harry found he liked to go to the local bar and drink and play pool, and yak with his cronies... everyone loved ole Harry, including numerous other women in the bar who found him oh so much fun... mom could not put up with it, but did try to work things out on several occasions (I remember twice that my sis and I were sent away for up to several weeks while they tried to "work it out")  The final straw was when they were again separated and I was 4 and my sis 7, and my dad came to take us for the afternoon... I told of this experience here on the Board not long ago... an experience that plays in my mind like a movie... and I can see every scene as if it was yesterday and that was 70 years ago... the title of that movie is "The Night I Rode with Angels."  A night when my drunken dad could very well have killed himself and my sis and me... except for what can only be considered divine intervention and guardian angels.  And that is my last memory I have of him... mom filed for divorce.  I never  saw him again, but as I got older and realized just what had happend and his total disregard for his two little girls, it took years to be able to forgive him...

And Nehor, there are many, many stories of similar happenings that lead to divorce... some because of one spouse and some because of the other.  My dad broke my mom's heart so deeply that it was an ache for many years, even up until I was almost grown.  It happens... more often than you think...

 

GG

Edited December 31, 2014 by Garden Girl

[The Nehor]

Hello Nehor...

I do agree that no one is perfect... and when it comes to marriage and then divorce, more often than not it does take two to create the divorce...

But you also said there could be exceptions, but you had not seen one... well... there is my mom and biological dad... My mom absolutely adored my dad.  He was the proverbial love of her life.  But mom was a homebody, who loved taking care of her home and husband, and their two little girls.  Dad on the other hand was a good time kind of guy, which was okay during high school... and mom married him right out of high school.  Harry found he liked to go to the local bar and drink and play pool, and yak with his cronies... everyone loved ole Harry, including numerous other women in the bar who found him oh so much fun... mom could not put up with it, but did try to work things out on several occasions (I remember twice that my sis and I were sent away for up to several weeks while they tried to "work it out")  The final straw was when they were again separated and I was 4 and my sis 7, and my dad came to take us for the afternoon... I told of this experience here on the Board not long ago... an experience that plays in my mind like a movie... and I can see every scene as if it was yesterday and that was 70 years ago... the title of that movie is "The Night I Rode with Angels."  A night when my drunken dad could very well have killed himself and my sis and me... except from what can only be considered divine intervention and guardian angels.  And that is my last memory I have of him... mom filed for divorce.  I never  saw him again, but as I got older and realized just what had happend and his total disregard for his two little girls, it took years to be able to forgive him...

And Nehor, there are many, many stories of similar happenings that lead to divorce... some because of one spouse and some because of the other.  My dad broke my mom's heart so deeply that it was an ache for many years, even up until I was almost grown.  It happens... more often than you think...

 

GG

I do not doubt it can and does happen. I am sorry for what you and your mom went through.

[bluebell]

But we were talking about divorce, not marriage. I know little about marriage. I try not to comment on it much for that reason.

 

You can't divorce divorce from marriage.

 

You were saying it's almost always both parties' fault when a marriage becomes dysfunctional and someone ends it.  That, in itself, is as much a statement about marriage as it is about divorce.

[The Nehor]

You can't divorce divorce from marriage.

 

You were saying it's almost always both parties' fault when a marriage becomes dysfunctional and someone ends it.  That, in itself, is as much a statement about marriage as it is about divorce.

Not entirely but I hope they are separate enough despite the rising correlation.

[jcake]

I'm a divorced person, and never was a perfect spouse. Still, I bet I put five to ten times the effort into  making the marriage work than 95% of those married people who will assume that it must be the fault of both of us.  I truly believe that many of those people, given the circumstances I dealt with, would have divorced far sooner than I.  And, maybe they would have been wiser than I, and not married a person of the nature of my former spouse.  I have learned to be very careful about making assumed judgements, as Nehor does, stating that most often the fault is with both partners.   I think it is better just to accept the situation, and love those involved.  We can't really know what has gone on in the lives of others, unless we have walked in their shoes.  Before my divorce, I thought others that divorced were probably not trying as hard.  Now I recognize that, often, they have tried the hardest.

 

Another change in our society that makes it harder to know is the fact that we now have no-fault divorce.  40 years ago, there needed to  be grounds for divorce.  Now, anyone who gets a hankering to find someone new can do just that.  The spouse doesn't have to agree, there does not have to be a reason.  A spouse can't insist that "we work on the marriage".  The partner can simply walk away at will.  I know of a number of people who, had they been required to show cause, or if their spouse refused to grant the divorce, would not have ended up leaving the marriage.  

[The Nehor]

I'm a divorced person, and never was a perfect spouse. Still, I bet I put five to ten times the effort into  making the marriage work than 95% of those married people who will assume that it must be the fault of both of us.  I truly believe that many of those people, given the circumstances I dealt with, would have divorced far sooner than I.  And, maybe they would have been wiser than I, and not married a person of the nature of my former spouse.  I have learned to be very careful about making assumed judgements, as Nehor does, stating that most often the fault is with both partners.   I think it is better just to accept the situation, and love those involved.  We can't really know what has gone on in the lives of others, unless we have walked in their shoes.  Before my divorce, I thought others that divorced were probably not trying as hard.  Now I recognize that, often, they have tried the hardest.

 

Another change in our society that makes it harder to know is the fact that we now have no-fault divorce.  40 years ago, there needed to  be grounds for divorce.  Now, anyone who gets a hankering to find someone new can do just that.  The spouse doesn't have to agree, there does not have to be a reason.  A spouse can't insist that "we work on the marriage".  The partner can simply walk away at will.  I know of a number of people who, had they been required to show cause, or if their spouse refused to grant the divorce, would not have ended up leaving the marriage.

Still bitter about last time huh?