A Prophet To The World?

[mormonnewb]

No. The Newby is speaking about official prophets at least, and focusing especially on the Prophet and President of the LDS Church. He appears to be very dubious about the prophetic status of someone claiming to be a prophet who does not regularly speak out on controversial issues. In OT and NT fashion. Maybe he is motivated by the lack of an encounter nowadays between Elijah and the priests of Baal at Carmel, or the lack of a court prophet like Nathan confronting King David. Wouldn't it be great to capture something like that on videotape? It would immediately go viral.

I hereby sustain you as my official Baptist-to-Mormon translator because you understand my point EXACTLY. My dubiousness was piqued this week in light of the current controversies involving police officers and racial minorities in the US. Given that I have four black sons, this is more than just an intellectual debate in our household. It is quite literally an existential issue, particularly for my 18 and 20 year-old sons.

Being subjected to frequent stops as a high schooler, Harvard law student and even a corporate vice president, I'm fighting my own frustrations that so little seems to have changed in the last 30 years. To get some type of perspective, I've turned to the teaching of Dr. King, Rabbi Heschel and even Ghandi. I've also tried to find strength and optimism from current prophetic figures like Dr. Cornel West and Father Pfleger.

It's been quite revelatory for me to come to grips with the fact that the Prophet who I sustain has nothing to offer in the way of prophetic guidance. It has made me question whether I shouldn't be supporting those churches who speak to the issues most pertinent for MY family.

[Bobbieaware]

When we say that our Prophet is a prophet to the world. What do we mean? We certainly don't mean that our Prophet is giving prophetic wisdom to anyone other than Mormons. After all, besides the Family Proclamation, what have we claimed to "the world" in, say, this century?

And the proclamation that everyone should see Meet the Mormons or our billboard in Times Square doesn't count. What prophetic insight has the world glean from us as it grapples with climate change, wealth inequality, civil unrest, racial strife, etc.?

So what do we mean by the term "prophet to the world"?

If your willing, in a sincere and honest attempt on your part to anticipate what he would say, how do you think President Monson would answer your question?

[rodheadlee]

It's been quite revelatory for me to come to grips with the fact that the Prophet who I sustain has nothing to offer in the way of prophetic guidance. It has made me question whether I shouldn't be supporting those churches who speak to the issues most pertinent for MY family.

What did the most important Prophet, Jesus Christ have to say about the issues of the day? Come unto Me, My Reward is Eternal. Did He counsel the Jews to rebel against Caesar because of slavery or they had to show up for the census, or didn't much like being ruled by Rome ? What did Christ say about the extremely wealthy? Sharing your money and substance with others? What did he say about this world belonging to Satan for now? and we are to be no part of it, right? What was Christ's solution for these problems? Love your neighbor as yourself? Love God above all? What did they do to Christ? Why would you expect to be treated better than Christ was treated? What is more important for your family? being as One with Christ and all that it includes by the Keys of the Priesthood or being as one with the World? You can't do both until Christ comes to rule the world. What do our Prophets have to say about it today? All you have to do is watch General Conference.

[Traela]

The same counsel our prophets give to all our members would go a long way toward improving both racial relations and life in the inner city: love one another. Be chaste. Take responsibility for your children. Get an education. Stay away from drugs and alcohol. Change your heart, and then be a light to your community.

[mormonnewb]

What did the most important Prophet, Jesus Christ have to say about the issues of the day? Come unto Me, My Reward is Eternal. Did He counsel the Jews to rebel against Caesar because of slavery or they had to show up for the census, or didn't much like being ruled by Rome ? What did Christ say about the extremely wealthy? Sharing your money and substance with others? What did he say about this world belonging to Satan for now? and we are to be no part of it, right? What was Christ's solution for these problems? Love your neighbor as yourself? Love God above all? What did they do to Christ? Why would you expect to be treated better than Christ was treated? What is more important for your family? being as One with Christ and all that it includes by the Keys of the Priesthood or being as one with the World? You can't do both until Christ comes to rule the world. What do our Prophets have to say about it today? All you have to do is watch General Conference.

I imagine that is just what the slave masters said to their slaves. '"We have an eternal reward for you, so go out there and make us rich. And sure, I'll rape your wife and sell your children three states over, but you will get your reward in heaven." And no, I'm not saying that YOU are a racist or slave master. I am simply saying that, after four CENTURIES, that same old song is starting to sound shrill.

Does the Book of Mormon teach that a people should willingly endure all kinds of abuse, because in the end, Jesus will make it all right? I don't think so. In fact, when the U.S. government began rounding up Mormons for polygamy and confiscated Church property, the Prophet had PLENTY to say about it. We even got an Official Declaration for our troubles. Jailing saints wouldn't have effected their salvation, but yet, the Prophet sought the Lord's guidance to help the saints avoid undue hardships during THIS life. And while I understand why this issue might not make it to the top of our Prophet's to-pray list, I'm not willing to give up hope that HF wants the best for all of His children.

[JLHPROF]

Perhaps specific prophetic advice about some popular topics of the day isn't necessary.

 

For the sinful behavior inclined, they won't listen and the advice is still the same as it's ever been - Repent and sin no more.

For the social issues that don't involve sin, fixing the world is not the path prophecy has laid out.  The world doesn't get better and better till Christ returns - the world becomes more and more wicked until Christ returns.

Any prophetic advice about that is about improving our personal characters, and I'm pretty sure the prophets adddress that CONSTANTLY.

 

Expecting the prophet of the last days to teach us to fix society's ills and flaws denies the fact that our society cannot and will not be fixed.  A Zion society based on God's law and scriptural principle will be established, but it won't be until our current one has collapsed.  We aren't going to perfect the society we are already in.

 

Even the prophets in the scripture who seemed to be speaking out on the evils of their time were really delivering the same message over and over again...Stop sinning and do what God has commanded repeatedly.  That's the only prophetic message that has ever been relevant to man.

[mormonnewb]

Perhaps specific prophetic advice about some popular topics of the day isn't necessary.

 

For the sinful behavior inclined, they won't listen and the advice is still the same as it's ever been - Repent and sin no more.

For the social issues that don't involve sin, fixing the world is not the path prophecy has laid out.  The world doesn't get better and better till Christ returns - the world becomes more and more wicked until Christ returns.

Any prophetic advice about that is about improving our personal characters, and I'm pretty sure the prophets adddress that CONSTANTLY.

 

Expecting the prophet of the last days to teach us to fix society's ills and flaws denies the fact that our society cannot and will not be fixed.  A Zion society based on God's law and scriptural principle will be established, but it won't be until our current one has collapsed.  We aren't going to perfect the society we are already in.

 

Even the prophets in the scripture who seemed to be speaking out on the evils of their time were really delivering the same message over and over again...Stop sinning and do what God has commanded repeatedly.  That's the only prophetic message that has ever been relevant to man.

Agreed. All of the prophets have repeated the same general counsel -- obey God. However, they spoke to the specific circumstances of their times. We saw this very clearly in the life of Dr. King. He would often quote Amos 5:24. "But let justice roll down like a river, and righteousness like a mighty stream." Yet, King didn't stop at this general admonition. He had specific ideas of implementation -- the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Acf, the Poor Person's Campaign, etc. And even when he wasn't leading a particular movement, he would lend his prophetic voice to the struggle; most notably in his opposition to the war in Vietnam.

In my view, THAT is what it means to be a prophet to the world.

[JLHPROF]

Agreed. All of the prophets have repeated the same general counsel -- obey God. However, they spoke to the specific circumstances of their times. We saw this very clearly in the life of Dr. King. He would often quote Amos 5:24. "But let justice roll down like a river, and righteousness like a mighty stream." Yet, King didn't stop at this general admonition. He had specific ideas of implementation -- the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Acf, the Poor Person's Campaign, etc. And even when he wasn't leading a particular movement, he would lend his prophetic voice to the struggle; most notably in his opposition to the war in Vietnam.

In my view, THAT is what it means to be a prophet to the world.

 

I agree - Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and their contemporaries definitely spoke repentance to more than the general membership and always voiced opinions on society.

But they never for a second expected to be able to change the nature of the secular world.  Babylon must rise, then fall and be replaced by Zion.  We can live in our own Zions by following prophetic advice, but we cannot expect the prophets to teach us anything that will change anything about this mortal world and Babylon.

Edited December 7, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mormonnewb]

I agree - Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and their contemporaries definitely spoke repentance to more than the general membership and always voiced opinions on society.

But they never for a second expected to be able to change the nature of the secular world. Babylon must rise, then fall and be replaced by Zion. We can live in our own Zions by following prophetic advice, but we cannot expect the prophets to teach us anything that will change anything about this mortal world and Babylon.

But they TRIED. After all, isn't that why JS was trying to run for President?

In fact, isn't that what the Church was doing in the Proclamation and in Prop 8 -- TRYING to stem the tide of "unrighteousness"?

Edited December 7, 2014 by mormonnewb

[JLHPROF]

But they TRIED. After all, isn't that why JS was trying to run for President?

In fact, isn't that what the Church was doing in the Proclamation and in Prop 8 -- TRYING to stem the tide of "unrighteousness"?

 

I think you just answered your own OP question with two examples of being prophets to the world and trying to put down evil...I'm sure you could come up with others.

Edited December 7, 2014 by JLHPROF

[rodheadlee]

I imagine that is just what the slave masters said to their slaves. '"We have an eternal reward for you, so go out there and make us rich. And sure, I'll rape your wife and sell your children three states over, but you will get your reward in heaven." And no, I'm not saying that YOU are a racist or slave master. I am simply saying that, after four CENTURIES, that same old song is starting to sound shrill.

Does the Book of Mormon teach that a people should willingly endure all kinds of abuse, because in the end, Jesus will make it all right? I don't think so. In fact, when the U.S. government began rounding up Mormons for polygamy and confiscated Church property, the Prophet had PLENTY to say about it. We even got an Official Declaration for our troubles. Jailing saints wouldn't have effected their salvation, but yet, the Prophet sought the Lord's guidance to help the saints avoid undue hardships during THIS life. And while I understand why this issue might not make it to the top of our Prophet's to-pray list, I'm not willing to give up hope that HF wants the best for all of His children.

Here is some prophesy.5 Now the end of the ^acommandment is ^bcharity out of a ^cpure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

  6 From which some having ^aswerved have ^bturned aside unto ^cvain jangling;

  7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they ^aaffirm.

  8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

  9 Knowing this, that the ^alaw is not made for a ^brighteous man, but for the ^clawless and ^ddisobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

  10 For ^awhoremongers, for ^bthem that ^cdefile themselves with mankind, for ^dmenstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound ^edoctrine;

 

 Laws are really not going to change peoples hearts

[Bobbieaware]

Agreed. All of the prophets have repeated the same general counsel -- obey God. However, they spoke to the specific circumstances of their times. We saw this very clearly in the life of Dr. King. He would often quote Amos 5:24. "But let justice roll down like a river, and righteousness like a mighty stream." Yet, King didn't stop at this general admonition. He had specific ideas of implementation -- the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Acf, the Poor Person's Campaign, etc. And even when he wasn't leading a particular movement, he would lend his prophetic voice to the struggle; most notably in his opposition to the war in Vietnam.

In my view, THAT is what it means to be a prophet to the world.

How very frustrating it must be for you that the LDS prophets don't measure up to your idea of what prophets should be. Perhaps you remember that the disciples of Jesus, before they received the gift of the Holy Ghost and its enlightening power, were similarly frustrated when in Matthew 26 the Lord seemed to be less concerned with the lot of the poor than they were. So it seems the presumptuous spirit that motivates your disappointment is nothing new.

Also, I'm hoping you will answer the question I asked you in post 27.

[Sleeper Cell]

I hereby sustain you as my official Baptist-to-Mormon translator because you understand my point EXACTLY. My dubiousness was piqued this week in light of the current controversies involving police officers and racial minorities in the US. Given that I have four black sons, this is more than just an intellectual debate in our household. It is quite literally an existential issue, particularly for my 18 and 20 year-old sons.

Being subjected to frequent stops as a high schooler, Harvard law student and even a corporate vice president, I'm fighting my own frustrations that so little seems to have changed in the last 30 years. To get some type of perspective, I've turned to the teaching of Dr. King, Rabbi Heschel and even Ghandi. I've also tried to find strength and optimism from current prophetic figures like Dr. Cornel West and Father Pfleger.

It's been quite revelatory for me to come to grips with the fact that the Prophet who I sustain has nothing to offer in the way of prophetic guidance. It has made me question whether I shouldn't be supporting those churches who speak to the issues most pertinent for MY family.

 

If you feel that so little has changed over the last 30 years, isn’t that another way of saying that you feel that your favorite social/prophetic figures haven’t accomplished very much? 

 

If a prophet only teaches things I already agree with, why would I ever need a living prophet?   Inherent in the concept of having a living prophet is the strong possibility that he might disagree with me.  And that he might disagree with me because God told him to.  He may even be inspired to have different priorities than I do.    

[Sleeper Cell]

I imagine that is just what the slave masters said to their slaves. '"We have an eternal reward for you, so go out there and make us rich. And sure, I'll rape your wife and sell your children three states over, but you will get your reward in heaven." And no, I'm not saying that YOU are a racist or slave master. I am simply saying that, after four CENTURIES, that same old song is starting to sound shrill.

 

I assume that Paul’s epistle to Philemon is not one of your favorite scriptures. 

[The Nehor]

The prophet invites one and all to repent and live the gospel. If we do that the rest of our global problems will either be solved for us through divine intervention or the information will be forwarded through the prophet.

[Damien the Leper]

Section 163 of the D&C is essential to living faithfully and overcoming our greatest problems.

[strappinglad]

Section 163 of the D&C is essential to living faithfully and overcoming our greatest problems.

Boy, do I have an OLD edition of the D&C !

[Damien the Leper]

Moat LDS people do. Time for an update.

[strappinglad]

Moat LDS people do. Time for an update.

I really MUST get out of the castle more often.

[Robert F. Smith]

What did the most important Prophet, Jesus Christ have to say about the issues of the day? Come unto Me, My Reward is Eternal. Did He counsel the Jews to rebel against Caesar because of slavery or they had to show up for the census, or didn't much like being ruled by Rome ? What did Christ say about the extremely wealthy? Sharing your money and substance with others? What did he say about this world belonging to Satan for now? and we are to be no part of it, right? What was Christ's solution for these problems? Love your neighbor as yourself? Love God above all? What did they do to Christ? Why would you expect to be treated better than Christ was treated? What is more important for your family? being as One with Christ and all that it includes by the Keys of the Priesthood or being as one with the World? You can't do both until Christ comes to rule the world. What do our Prophets have to say about it today? All you have to do is watch General Conference.

You make some excellent points, because there were plenty of zealots among Jesus' contemporaries, just as there were violence-prone zealots who were critical of Dr. King.  Yet we know in retrospect that the non-violent policies of Jesus, Gandhi, and King were very effective.  The Brethren do not only affect policy through their twice-yearly Conference sermons.  They regularly work behind the scenes and also issue public pronouncements on policy:

 

"Church Encourages Principled Approach to Health Care Coverage for Needy Utahns," Mormon Newsroom, December 5, 2014, online at http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-encourages-principled-approach-health-care-coverage-needy-utahns

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement after Thursday's press conference announcing Governor Gary Herbert's Healthy Utah Plan:

"We recognize that providing adequate health care to individuals and families throughout Utah is a complex and weighty matter. It deserves the best thinking and efforts from both the public and the private sectors.

"While the economic and political realities are being debated, we hope the discussion and decisions taken in this matter will be consistent with the God-given principles regarding care for the poor and the needy that in the end benefit all of His children. We reaffirm the importance for individuals and families to be as self-sufficient as their particular circumstances allow and recognize that the lack of access to health care can impair a person's ability to provide for self and family.

"We commend public officials for their efforts to grapple with these difficult issues and pray for their success in finding solutions that reflect the highest aspirations of society."

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

But for the "world," how do their words reach them?

 

I think that's where you're supposed to come in.

[Robert F. Smith]

I hereby sustain you as my official Baptist-to-Mormon translator because you understand my point EXACTLY. My dubiousness was piqued this week in light of the current controversies involving police officers and racial minorities in the US. Given that I have four black sons, this is more than just an intellectual debate in our household. It is quite literally an existential issue, particularly for my 18 and 20 year-old sons.

Being subjected to frequent stops as a high schooler, Harvard law student and even a corporate vice president, I'm fighting my own frustrations that so little seems to have changed in the last 30 years. To get some type of perspective, I've turned to the teaching of Dr. King, Rabbi Heschel and even Ghandi. I've also tried to find strength and optimism from current prophetic figures like Dr. Cornel West and Father Pfleger.

It's been quite revelatory for me to come to grips with the fact that the Prophet who I sustain has nothing to offer in the way of prophetic guidance. It has made me question whether I shouldn't be supporting those churches who speak to the issues most pertinent for MY family.

I hear you, Brother, and you can't go far wrong if you are listening to Professor Cornel West (I encountered him years ago while watching Tavis Smiley interviews), or imbibing the teachings of Abraham Joshua Heschel, Mohandas K. Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr.  These are all heroic men, and all well worth emulating, along with our Savior Jesus Christ.  All of them were clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit, just as I myself felt inspired to march with Dr. King's SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Conference) back in the 60s.  Each had a role to play and played it well, as did Joseph Smith Jr in his own time and place.  We are very fortunate that God parcels out his Noble and Great Ones strategically in the long battle against the satanic forces of chaos and degradation.  

 

We all need to put our shoulder to the wheel.  I guess you are asking, Which wheel?

[Robert F. Smith]

I imagine that is just what the slave masters said to their slaves. '"We have an eternal reward for you, so go out there and make us rich. And sure, I'll rape your wife and sell your children three states over, but you will get your reward in heaven." And no, I'm not saying that YOU are a racist or slave master. I am simply saying that, after four CENTURIES, that same old song is starting to sound shrill.

Does the Book of Mormon teach that a people should willingly endure all kinds of abuse, because in the end, Jesus will make it all right? I don't think so. In fact, when the U.S. government began rounding up Mormons for polygamy and confiscated Church property, the Prophet had PLENTY to say about it. We even got an Official Declaration for our troubles. Jailing saints wouldn't have effected their salvation, but yet, the Prophet sought the Lord's guidance to help the saints avoid undue hardships during THIS life. And while I understand why this issue might not make it to the top of our Prophet's to-pray list, I'm not willing to give up hope that HF wants the best for all of His children.

This life is a test, and not an easy one.  The Nephites as a people failed their test, and so were eliminated.  It is a matter of rabbinic doctrine that the Jews failed their test (more than once),and so were exiled throughout the world, before being regathered in our own time.

 

Real issues have been joined for all of us.  We have to make crucial choices.  Ante-Bellum slavery in America is only one example of that real testing:  Many chose to just go along with it, while others became Abolitionists and operated the Underground Railroad.  Joseph Smith ordained Black people and enunciated a Presidential platform calling for the end of slavery by buying slaves from their owners (a Federal purchasing program).  Mormon efforts in Missouri were destroyed largely because of the perception that Mormons were abolitionist at worst and a mite to friendly to Black people at best.

 

Today, all these years later, vast changes have taken place.  Yet we now have more slaves worldwide than at anytime in history, while death by war and famine continues apace.  God is not letting us off the hook.  He is giving us all real choices.  He is testing us.  Yet He takes the long view, as He did in accommodating to Federal demands for an end to polygamy.  He saw his Restored Church as essential for the future, even if some deeply committed members found themselves being whipsawed by the change in practice of an important doctrine.  Patience is a virtue.

[Raingirl]

After reading a number of your threads, it feels to me that you don't start a thread to ask sincere questions. It's merely a set-up for you to pontificate and tell us what you think is "wrong" with the church.

It's getting really old.

[Senator]

After reading a number of your threads, it feels to me that you don't start a thread to ask sincere questions. It's merely a set-up for you to pontificate and tell us what you think is "wrong" with the church.

It's getting really old.

Newb, you didn't follow protocol. You must submit all questions to Raingil first for a sincerity certificate

 

Raingirl, you don't have to read his threads, you know.

 

Heck, you don't even have to turn on your computer.