A Prophet To The World?

[mormonnewb]

If you feel that so little has changed over the last 30 years, isn’t that another way of saying that you feel that your favorite social/prophetic figures haven’t accomplished very much? 

 

If a prophet only teaches things I already agree with, why would I ever need a living prophet?   Inherent in the concept of having a living prophet is the strong possibility that he might disagree with me.  And that he might disagree with me because God told him to.  He may even be inspired to have different priorities than I do.

That is certainly a possibility. However, in this case, I don't know where the Church stands.

[mormonnewb]

After reading a number of your threads, it feels to me that you don't start a thread to ask sincere questions. It's merely a set-up for you to pontificate and tell us what you think is "wrong" with the church.

It's getting really old.

You leave out the possibility that I SINCERELY think there are some things wrong with the Church. And it's a good thing that someone on a DISCUSSION board thinks so.

Or did I mistakenly post on the mormonecho.org, where all of the threads are titled, "How Perfect Do You Think the Church Is?"

Seriously, Sister, you have come to the crux of my current dilemma. As Mormons, we are a "see no evil, hear no evil" type of people. We have an entire Article of Faith devoted to the concept. And it really does make living in a community of saints a wonderful experience. It's one of the things that drew me to the Church in the first place.

However, there are times in which contention is necessary. In fact, most of the blessings that my family enjoys are the fruit of contention. They came from people focusing on what was evil, ugly and of ill report and then working to change it.

That is simply not how we Mormons "roll." We simply choose to focus away from those things. For instance, on the first night of the protests in NY, a sister in my ward was watching a play on Broadway. When she left the theater, she found herself in the midst of a virtual uprising (a peaceful one). And so she took out her cell phone and posted a picture on FB of ... the "He's the Gift" billboard in Times Square.

It was a beautiful sentiment from a beautiful sister, but it will NOT make it any safer for my sons to survive a traffic stop. The leaders of the civil rights movement in the 1960s had the same love and worship of the Savoir, but they understand that it was necessary to focus on temporal matters in order to make changes here on earth; and to live up to the commandments in Matthew 25 (to feed, clothe, heal and visit those ON EARTH).

[mormonnewb]

This life is a test, and not an easy one. The Nephites as a people failed their test, and so were eliminated. It is a matter of rabbinic doctrine that the Jews failed their test (more than once),and so were exiled throughout the world, before being regathered in our own time.

Real issues have been joined for all of us. We have to make crucial choices. Ante-Bellum slavery in America is only one example of that real testing: Many chose to just go along with it, while others became Abolitionists and operated the Underground Railroad. Joseph Smith ordained Black people and enunciated a Presidential platform calling for the end of slavery by buying slaves from their owners (a Federal purchasing program). Mormon efforts in Missouri were destroyed largely because of the perception that Mormons were abolitionist at worst and a mite to friendly to Black people at best.

Today, all these years later, vast changes have taken place. Yet we now have more slaves worldwide than at anytime in history, while death by war and famine continues apace. God is not letting us off the hook. He is giving us all real choices. He is testing us. Yet He takes the long view, as He did in accommodating to Federal demands for an end to polygamy. He saw his Restored Church as essential for the future, even if some deeply committed members found themselves being whipsawed by the change in practice of an important doctrine. Patience is a virtue.

Preach, Brother! Preach!

Given your fundamental love of justice and your willingness to even put your body on the line in the quest therefor (something for which I can't thank you enough), what made you stay in this tradition?

[Jeanne]

Just one question..why wouldn't God want a prophet to help with temporal problems that affect his children?  Surely even if race issues, and prop 8, political issues does not have anything to do with our spiritual return to God, they do affect our reactions and spiritual growth here on this earth.

 

This is a sincere question.  When 9-11 happened and when conference was going on when the we stepped into another war, we heard only about extra ear piercings and things that to me have no value.  I loved our prophets..they should have had a voice.

[Calm]

That is simply not how we Mormons "roll." We simply choose to focus away from those things.

You keep saying stuff like this and yet every week I hear of an effort started by or involving Mormons who are out there dealing with the evils of the world directly and not just protesting on a message board.

Latest one:

http://universe.byu.edu/2014/12/01/byu-alumnus-heads-sex-slavery-tourism-sting1/

Half the members of this team are BYU grads....

 

“It’s funny, because we all read history and we think, ‘Oh, I would … have risen up, I would have fought, I would have been an abolitionist,'” Ballard said. “And I tell them, ‘No, you wouldn’t have. If you would have, you’d be doing that right now. You know trafficking exists, you’ve heard of it, but you don’t want to look.'” 

 

Other LDS involved projects off the top of my head not including Church directed ones that can be found on lds.org:

 

http://academy4creatingenterprise.com

 

http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/home

 

http://www.mormon.org/cecile

 

About LDS being involved in helping others:

 

http://americamagazine.org/issue/5136/columns/mormons-and-charity

 

"Mormons reliably tithe to their churches and also give about $1,200 annually “to social causes outside the church.” Even Mormons who have relatively low household incomes both tithe fully and give more of their income to assist non-Mormons in need than other Americans do."

 

A number of members in my area, including one of our best friends, devoted all their vacation time for a couple of years to going down and helping in Haiti.

 

Just because LDS do not follow your expected mode of changing the world for the better doesn't actually mean LDS aren't involved heavily in worthwhile projects and are instead just sitting at home enjoying their good life or walking by the crowds ignoring turmoil or homelessness or other evils of the world.

 

This desire to help others comes in a large part from listening to the teachings of the prophets.  By promoting a faith that turns people into better and more caring individuals, prophets help create people who go out and do good things without having to be instructed in specifics by their leaders and instead are self-driven to seek out where they can do the most good.

 

Other ways LDS are involved in trying to improve the world:

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/1872501-155/quinoa-could-feed-the-world-byu

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700009198/BYU-professor-Paul-Savages-compounds-could-solve-worlds-infection-problems.html?pg=all

 

Paul is currently working with a woman from the Phillipines iirc who is hoping to use his compounds to help diabetics with problems resulting from infections….in the area she is working at diabetes treatment amounts to getting tested for blood sugars once a week at the doctors.

Edited December 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[strappinglad]

( to Jeanne) So you are saying that you want the church to be involved in political movements, but stay out of politics. They are to preach that the Spirit cannot abide in contention while at the same time be involved in all the contentious issues of the day.

What should we make of the scriptures that tells us not to be commanded in all things but to go about doing much good? The rubber hits the road at the individual level.

Edited December 7, 2014 by strappinglad

[mormonnewb]

You keep saying stuff like this and yet every week I hear of an effort started by or involving Mormons who are out there dealing with the evils of the world directly and not just protesting on a message board.

Latest one:

http://universe.byu.edu/2014/12/01/byu-alumnus-heads-sex-slavery-tourism-sting1/

Half the members of this team are BYU grads....

I acknowledge that my generalizations do not encompass ALL saints. And I guess, in the future, I will have to temper my praise of the saints for their kindness to account for the few jerky saints amongst us.

That being said, I still think that my GENERALIZATION of a "hear no evil, see no evil" people is not unfair. Nor is it perjorative. I am the first to admit that I find it appealing. I'm just noting its limitations, especially when embraced by those whom have been called to be prophets to "the world."

[thesometimesaint]

I hereby sustain you as my official Baptist-to-Mormon translator because you understand my point EXACTLY. My dubiousness was piqued this week in light of the current controversies involving police officers and racial minorities in the US. Given that I have four black sons, this is more than just an intellectual debate in our household. It is quite literally an existential issue, particularly for my 18 and 20 year-old sons.

Being subjected to frequent stops as a high schooler, Harvard law student and even a corporate vice president, I'm fighting my own frustrations that so little seems to have changed in the last 30 years. To get some type of perspective, I've turned to the teaching of Dr. King, Rabbi Heschel and even Ghandi. I've also tried to find strength and optimism from current prophetic figures like Dr. Cornel West and Father Pfleger.

It's been quite revelatory for me to come to grips with the fact that the Prophet who I sustain has nothing to offer in the way of prophetic guidance. It has made me question whether I shouldn't be supporting those churches who speak to the issues most pertinent for MY family.

 

Actually they have spoken relatively recently on that subject.

SEE http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/race-church

[Jeanne]

Strapplinglad, I thank you for your reply and making me think a little about my own question in depth.  I don't think any church should be in politics.  But if a prayerful person prays, studies and frequent with church conferences and magazines, he should be able to have some sort of prophecy or guidiance from the prophet that is here to serve and bring forth good things for the Lord.

 

I know it sounds both ways..but the church has it both ways too.  All the time.  All the answers come after you die.  Do not question. Follow the Prophet.  Then, when going throught the steps for prayer, repentance and to their best the understanding of the gospel, they are subjected to the rules of seeking their own revelations but if they are wrong, they have sinned against the prophet.

[CV75]

So what do we mean by the term "prophet to the world"?

I think D&C Section 1 explains it pretty well. The voice of the Lord is unto all the world through His servants, and those from Joseph Smith onward have had His authority to “proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets— … that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; That faith also might increase in the earth; That mine everlasting covenant might be established; That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.” This is a very comprehensive commission, and the keys of this commission are found in only one person (and those members of the quorums he leads, or with whom these keys have been shared), hence the expression, “prophet to the world.”

[mormonnewb]

Actually they have spoken relatively recently on that subject.

SEE http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/race-church

I'll be sure to have my boys carry this announcement in their car along with their registration and proof of insurance. It should help allay the officers fears that they are armed or otherwise dangerous and therefore, need not be shot or choked.

[thesometimesaint]

I'll be sure to have my boys carry this announcement in their car along with their registration and proof of insurance. It should help allay the officers fears that they are armed or otherwise dangerous and therefore, need not be shot or choked.

 

It wouldn't hurt, but personally I'd prefer cops that aren't racist.

[mormonnewb]

Calmoriah, you wrote:

"This desire to help others comes in a large part from listening to the teachings of the prophets. By promoting a faith that turns people into better and more caring individuals, prophets help create people who go out and do good things without having to be instructed in specifics by their leaders and instead are self-driven to seek out where they can do the most good."

I find it curious that the prophets allow us so much agency when it applies to obeying God's commandment to serve others, but not nearly so much agency when it comes to how to serve the CHURCH. When it comes to others, they say, "Give what you think is right." When it comes to the Church, they have set a specific percentage of income. When it comes to service to others, they say, "Serve where you feel led to serve." With regards to serving the Church, we are called to SPECIFIC tasks."

For example, last night, I helped clean the meetinghouse. I wasn't suddenly "inspired" to do so. My name was on the EQ list and I did my duty, as do most saints.

It is not a mystery why are meetinghouses are so clean ... because we don't leave it to chance or personal revelation. However, when it comes to a very messy world, the prophets throw up their hands and say, "Do what you think is best."

It seems to me that we could use the Lord's guidance most when it comes to these larger issues.

[mormonnewb]

DUPLICATE POST

Edited December 7, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Calm]

Local leaders have information about what is needed in the local wards, tithing---which is a churchwide commandment---has been set at 10% with no variation.  It makes sense that in certain cases they provide information on how best to fulfill local wards' needs or general church efforts (such as a church wide fast in the case of a disaster as sometimes occurs).  They know what callings need to be filled and assign such to avoid duplication and neglect.  It seems strange to think this is somehow inappropriate.

 

Expecting local and general leaders to do more than encourage members to get involved in non church projects they do not have oversight on and would therefore not be the best source for necessary information is counterproductive.  For members such as yourself who are reluctant to do their own research and be selfmotivated in what they get involved in, the Church as mention in another thread will soon have available a "Just Serve" service that will help local members find local charities to get involved in, but there have been for quite sometime available on lds.org many charitiable efforts to contribute to.  And church leaders on occasion will make mention in conference other efforts, such as the Perpetual Education Fund and the Temple Patrons fund (can't remember the full name, the fund takes donations to help those who cannot afford travel expenses for their endowments and sealings).  Nowhere though in any of this instruction is an individual told they have to donate a certain amount or even donate at all.

 

Leaders do not give specific directions in all cases involving the Church.  They do not give so many hours needing to be devoted to whatever calling or what resources should be devoted to it, they do not direct how much money should be given in offerings beyond a suggestion of minimum of two meals, they do not give a minimum time allotment for home or visiting teaching.  In my experience, there was very little direction overall.  People are given a calling and at times some training in it and then left to do it on their own.  I have never received instructions in my calling as a bulletin person for example, I may be sent information but no one has told me how to present it beyond ward info comes first.  No one tells me how much ward info I must include.  As a librarian I was set apart and told to do what I believe was best.  I read the info stuff from the Church and applied that which I felt was appropriate and ignored other stuff.  I created my own filing system without any input, negative or positive, from other leaders.  As a Primary teacher, probably less than five times over 20 years I had someone come into class and they never corrected me on how I was doing stuff even when I wasn't following the manual that closely.  I have also volunteered for several callings and was accepted in almost all cases.  Most times I've given talks I have been at most given a topic and time limit, but other than that nothing though I know of bishops who are more hands on with that stuff.

 

I see the chapel cleaning as something necessary to be more micromanaged because of the health and safety issues.  This is significantly different than other callings.  Using this as a typical example of how leaders interact with members is therefore inappropriate.

 

It seems to me that we could use the Lord's guidance most when it comes to these larger issues.

 

And yet in your posts you already seem to know what is needed and it comes across as more of you wishing the leaders were telling others to do what you think is necessary rather than you wondering what you should be spending your time in service of your fellowman for.

 

Do you really sit around with nothing to do and think "I sure wish someone would tell me what I can do to make the world a better place because I can't think of one thing to do on my own?"  Do you know of anyone who is incapable of thinking of a service they could contribute to help either on a personal level or in a more general way through a donation of resources?

Edited December 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

Calmoriah wrote:

"For members such as yourself who are reluctant to do their own research and be selfmotivated in what they get involved in ...."

I'm marking the date -- December 7, 2014. It's taken over a year of insulting posts for me to get you to respond in kind. And it makes me think: Why now?

I have questioned just about EVERY aspect of Mormonism and I think some of my concerns/criticisms/questions have been for more pointed than questioning our secular prophetic guidance. I've questioned why we think HF doesn't own stock in Haynes, why we think HM has such tender ears, and a hundred other aspects of sacred (but not secret) Mormon doctrine, and you never resorted to a personal insult.

So why now? Was it an "accumulation of punches" or is there something about this particular jab that was so jarring? And don't get me wrong. I've had it coming for a long time. I'm just curious as to what match finally lit the fuse.

Edited December 7, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Calm]

I get very frustrated by those who sit around and complain that the Church isn't doing enough or that they aren't being told what to do to help others when there is tons of info already online available and it is obvious in most cases they never even tried to look for it to educate themselves before complaining.  Plus I know so many who are actively out there helping the world change both in and out of the Church and I get really tired when some talk dismissively as if these efforts don't even exist….which your posts in this thread overall did to me.

 

Your posts to me were acting like a child needing to be told what to do ("I'm bored, entertain me") when surrounded by a multitude of toys and projects and a backyard full of things to explore and climb.  If someone acts like a child, I see no reason not to treat them like one.

[mormonnewb]

I get very frustrated by those who sit around and complain that the Church isn't doing enough or that they aren't being told what to do to help others when there is tons of info already online available and it is obvious in most cases they never even tried to look for it to educate themselves before complaining. Plus I know so many who are actively out there helping the world change both in and out of the Church and I get really tired when some talk dismissively as if these efforts don't even exist….which your posts in this thread overall did to me.

Your posts to me were acting like a child needing to be told what to do ("I'm bored, entertain me") when surrounded by a multitude of toys and projects and a backyard full of things to explore and climb. If someone acts like a child, I see no reason not to treat them like one.

Just to be clear, I wasn't looking for the Prophet to tell ME to be out there protesting and demonstrating for justice. I was doing that long before I ever heard of Joseph Smith. If I was "whining" about anything, it was that I won't be marching arm and arm with my Mormon "brothers" (except for Brothers Smith and Englund, of course). Unless, of course, we ever decide to put "become concerned about equal justice" on the EQ ward rotation list.

[ERayR]

I get very frustrated by those who sit around and complain that the Church isn't doing enough or that they aren't being told what to do to help others when there is tons of info already online available and it is obvious in most cases they never even tried to look for it to educate themselves before complaining.  Plus I know so many who are actively out there helping the world change both in and out of the Church and I get really tired when some talk dismissively as if these efforts don't even exist….which your posts in this thread overall did to me.

 

Your posts to me were acting like a child needing to be told what to do ("I'm bored, entertain me") when surrounded by a multitude of toys and projects and a backyard full of things to explore and climb.  If someone acts like a child, I see no reason not to treat them like one.

 

Thank you well said.

[Calm]

In other words (so it would seem), you (mormonnewb) want the Prophet to be telling others what you wish they would be out there doing, what you think is important rather than what others might believe is a better use of their time and resources.

Edited December 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

Just to be clear, I wasn't looking for the Prophet to tell ME to be out there protesting and demonstrating for justice. I was doing that long before I ever heard of Joseph Smith. If I was "whining" about anything, it was that I won't be marching arm and arm with my Mormon "brothers" (except for Brothers Smith and Englund, of course). Unless, of course, we ever decide to put "become concerned about equal justice" on the EQ ward rotation list.

 

Some of us do not see things they way you do.  In other words we don't see that you have really have a cause and we have our own causes to spend our time on.

[mormonnewb]

Some of us do not see things they way you do. In other words we don't see that you have really have a cause and we have our own causes to spend our time on.

I realize that. If only you had a voice of prophetic wisdom to keep the saints from being on the wrong side of history ... AGAIN.

[mormonnewb]

In other words (so it would seem), you (mormonnewb) want the Prophet to be telling others what you wish they would be out there doing, what you think is important rather than what others might believe is a better use of their time and resources.

What else do our prophets do but just that? Go to the temple! Do your home teaching! Pay your tithes! Vote yes on Prop 8 and no on the ERA. They always tell us what to do!

[Calm]

 They always tell us what to do!

I can't take you seriously when you make comments like that.

[rodheadlee]

I'll be sure to have my boys carry this announcement in their car along with their registration and proof of insurance. It should help allay the officers fears that they are armed or otherwise dangerous and therefore, need not be shot or choked.

Just tell them not to assault a police officer or resist arrest and they should be fine.