Killing Joseph Smith To Save Mormonism

[Bowtiemenace]

Sorry about the quote boxes. It wasn't letting me delete the two top ones for some reason.

 

Mormonweb: You really need to read Richard Bushmen's, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. He goes over all that stuff in his book and why the negative conclusions are faulty. He's a fantastic historian (one of the best of the past generation) and a Professor emeritus of Columbia University. He also had it read by numerous non-Mormons and made changes from their critiques (he had it peer-reviewed basically.) I think you could find a lot of answers there.  

[Bowtiemenace]

Strappinglad: I pretty much thought the same until I started reading online about people not knowing about it. Were you raised in an intellectual household? Most people I met at church though know that JS had many wives... That I've talked with it about at least.

[why me]

LOL!  The article you linked to had ONE reference to ONE of JS' plural wives (and I have to use the Find function on my browser to get to that).

I also said that we discussed it in meetings. It was not a secret at all. We all knew about the polygamy of JS. There are more articles relating to his wives like Eliza Snow but I cannot find them now. But it is in the D and C, which also includes his polyandry. It was a different world a few decades ago and when that section of the D and C came up we talked about it. My point was actually simple. We had faith promoting discussions about his polygamy and the spritual experiences of his wives. It was a different world back then when I was a young adult. We knew much...including what was in BYs journal of discourses since most members had them in their home libraries.

Edited July 16, 2014 by why me

[Bowtiemenace]

Another thing Mormonweb, I don't think polygamy or anti-mormons are destroying the church all that much. Yes, they take away some people, but most (and I wouldn't say all, because there are exceptions. I almost decided to leave, because of their attacks on Spiritual Witness)  Apostates aren't necessarily entirely driven by the facts. 60% of Young Men leave the church primarily because of the thoroughness of pornography in drawing people's hearts away. Now like I said, there are exceptions and some very honest truth seekers among the ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons. But I think it has more to do with our current culture than the facts.

[Bowtiemenace]

Why me: I remember hearing my parents talking about how they learned about JS's polygamy in institute. It seems like it must have changed.

[why me]

The one reference that comes to mind is from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses:

Actually here is the full context:

 

Remarks by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.

Reported by G. D. Watt.

 

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.

I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.

Should not this thought comfort all people? They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever. It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption. You will be thankful, everyone of you, that Joseph Smith, junior, was ordained to this great calling before the worlds were. I told you that the doctrine of election and reprobation is a true doctrine. It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people, and receive the fulness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God. The Lord had his eye upon him, and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham, and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the

290    

birth of that man. He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation, as much so as Pharaoh was foreordained to be a wicked man, or as was Jesus to be the Savior of the world because he was the oldest son in the family.

 

http://jod.mrm.org/7/282

 

Taken in context, BY was probably using hyperbole to make his point about the importance of JS. Also, it is my understanding that this talk was taking from someone's notes or shorthand and not from his own pen. It was reported by JD Watt and who knows if he got it right. I don't think that brigham had a chance to see what JD Watt was printing or recording nor publishing. See my point?

 

Edited July 16, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Why me: I remember hearing my parents talking about how they learned about JS's polygamy in institute. It seems like it must have changed.

Yes, it did. It came around the late 80s. I believe that it was a decsion to stress the modern day gospel for the here and now and not bring up too many things from the past. The ensign also changed course. I remember when the question and answer section dealt with many of the things that critics or exmembers claim are hidden. Not much was hidden back in the 70s and before that decade. I have a feeling that it was the correlation committee of the late 80s who made the mistake in moving away from such topics. I would assume that they did not consider the internet at all since it was in its infancy. But now they are back on track and all should be okay in a decade or so.

[ERayR]

I was just reading another article about someone leaving the Church with the feeling that they had been "lied to."  In this case, it was over the issue of polygamy -- that they had attended countless hours of primary, young men's, seminar and even served a mission and had never known about JS' polygamy.  Over the last few years, the Church has made great strides to become more transparent about so-called "difficult issues" as evidenced by the most recent article on the BoA translation process.  However, we have yet to address JS' polygamy and I'm not sure that we really can given that we've pretty much deified JS.  For some members, the slide to apostasy starts on the slippery slope of JS' polygamy (yes, I thought that was poetic as well).

 

Fortunately, Mormonnewb to the rescue.  My solution: We acknowledge JS as a fallen prophet starting in the Nauvoo period.  Stop flailing about and clawing your eyes out and hear me out:

 

For one, trying to justify JS' polygamy is simply too difficult (which might explain why the Church doesn't even talk about it).  After all, even JS tried to keep it hidden.  Also, why would HF require the saints to engage in a practice that would later almost destroy the Church?  Doesn't it just seem more likely that JS, like almost every other man who has ever had such power over a community, got carried away with that power?

 

Second, if JS was a fallen prophet, he would be in very good company.  In fact, he would be perfectly in line with the Biblical mold of a prophet -- faithful servant plucked from obscurity but eventually, he proved HUMAN.  In fact, when I was investigating the Church, this was the greatest evidence to me of JS' prophetic mantel -- that he messed it up at some point.  That puts him in company with the likes of Noah and Moses and in no way diminishes his earlier works, just as Noah's drunkenness and Moses' temper didn't negate them as prophets.  The ancient Jews didn't throw out the Ten Commandments just because Moses was prohibited from reaching the promised land, so why should the BoM and restoration be affected by JS' fall?

 

Third, and this might be most important, acknowledging JS' fall would bolster the current prophets' claims that they are in line with the Lord's will.  I often hear that the Lord will remove a prophet should he ever lead the Church astray.  However, since this has never happened in our current paradigm, it seems like a hollow statement.  It's the Mormon equivalent of "If I'm lying, may the Lord strike me dead.  (Pause)  I'm still alive so I must be telling the truth."  On the other hand, if the narrative was that Lord will remove a prophet if he ever leads the Church astray like He removed Joseph, well that puts some teeth in the concept of a "heavenly veto" for Church leadership.

 

Who's with me on this one? (Ducking for cover)

 

Or we can just disband the Church and merge with the Baptists.

[ERayR]

LOL!  The article you linked to had ONE reference to ONE of JS' plural wives (and I have to use the Find function on my browser to get to that).

 

Boo hoo.  Work your fingers to the bone and all you get is bony fingers.

[mormonnewb]

Or we can just disband the Church and merge with the Baptists.

Not sure they would take us

[ERayR]

Not sure they would take us

 

All the dissension anf petty complaining, I wouldn't blame them.

[JLHPROF]

 

Actually here is the full context:

 

 

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.

 

http://jod.mrm.org/7/282

 

 

This was taught/quoted in the Ensign - https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/06/joseph-smith-among-the-prophets?lang=eng

 

There is also:

 

"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation." Brigham Young - Essential Brigham Young pg 99 Oct 8, 1854

 

and

 

"If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them when they shall have been officiated for, and bring them up." Discourses of BY - 211

 

and

 

"I bear this testimony this day, that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator—an Apostle holding the keys of this last dispensation and of the kingdom of God, under Peter, James, and John. And not only that he was a Prophet and Apostle of Jesus Christ, and lived and died one, but that he now lives in the spirit world, and holds those same keys to usward and to this whole generation. Also that he will hold those keys to all eternity; and no power in heaven or on the earth will ever take them from him; for he will continue holding those keys through all eternity, and will stand—yes, again in the flesh upon this earth, as the head of the Latter-day Saints under Jesus Christ, and under Peter, James, and John. He will hold the keys to judge the generation to whom he was sent, and will judge my brethren that preside over me; and will judge me, together with the Apostles ordained by the word of the Lord through him and under his administration.

When this is done, those Apostles will judge this generation and the Latter-day Saints; and they will judge them with that judgment which Jesus Christ will give unto them; and they will have the same spirit and the same mind as Jesus Christ, and their judgment will be his judgment, for they will be one.

...We will be judged by brother Joseph; and he will be judged by Peter, James, and John, and their associates. Brother Brigham, who now presides over us, will hold the keys under brother Joseph; and he and his brethren, who hold the keys with him, or under his direction, will judge the people; for they will hold those keys to all eternity, worlds without end. By those keys they will have to judge this generation; and Peter, James, and John, will hold the keys to preside over, and judge, and direct brother Joseph to all eternity; and Jesus Christ will hold the keys over them and over us, under his Father, to whom be all the glory."  - Parley P. Pratt JOD 5:195-96

Edited July 16, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Madmardigan]

I was in the MTC in 2000 and I remember there was a scripture bookmark that had dates of significance in JS's life. These dates included his sealings to plural wives. The info is there if people look.

[halconero]

This about sums up my feelings on Brother Joseph:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBSLBl-64fk

Edited July 16, 2014 by halconero

[Hamba Tuhan]

This about sums up my feelings on Brother Joseph:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBSLBl-64fk

 

Same.

 

And further from Brigham Young:

 

 

I do not want to think where the 'Mormons' have been, and how they have been treated, but I want to think of matters that will make my heart light, like the roe on the mountains—to reflect that the Lord Almighty has given me my birth on the land where He raised up a Prophet, and revealed the everlasting Gospel through him, and that I had the privilege of hearing it—of knowing and understanding it—of embracing and enjoying it. I feel like shouting hallelujah, all the time, when I think that I ever knew Joseph Smith, the Prophet whom the Lord raised up and ordained, and to whom He gave keys and power to build up the kingdom of God on earth and sustain it. These keys are committed to this people, and we have power to continue the work that Joseph commenced, until everything is prepared for the coming of the Son of Man.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[AndyDnom]

I'm pretty sure the church will issue an essay on JS Polygamy. Only a matter of time on that.

 

This has been announced. The essay is called "Nauvoo Polygamy" it just doesn't have a release date announced yet.

[Bowtiemenace]

Interesting why me. That actually answers like almost all the concerns I have left. Was it this way with most other instances where people feel lied to now? I'd love your insight on the deception issue in other areas. What about glass looking, peep stone stuff, supposed first vision evolution etc?

[Kenngo1969]

So, since Joseph reportedly first learned of the principles discussed in Doctrine and Covenants 132 as early as 1831, we should start throwing things out after that?  OK.    What're we left with?  How's this gonna work?  Joseph's allegedly a fallen prophet, but everyone after him is OK?  What do we make of the well-attested experience after Joseph's death, when various people were staking (rather dubious, in my book) claims to Joseph's prophetic mantle, and Brigham Young actually appeared to adopt (in vision, essentially) Joseph's appearance and mannerisms?  (Personally, I think that's how the Lord convinced many Church members who He wanted them to follow, but that now becomes impossible under your theory ...)  Why would that happen when, if what you posit is true, the Lord actually was ready to throw Joseph "under the wagon," so to speak?  And, although you've indicated that plural marriage isn't your only problem with Joseph, if it is at least one of them, how do you reconcile your theory with the fact that Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff also practiced/sanctioned plural marriage?  At what point did we get "back on track" after Joseph went off the rails?

 

I'd be the last to suggest that I don't have any questions about what Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets taught, but this theory of yours seems to raise more questions than it answers.  Good theories don't generally do that.  (No offense).

[teddyaware]

So, since Joseph reportedly first learned of the principles discussed in Doctrine and Covenants 132 as early as 1831, we should start throwing things out after that?  OK.    What're we left with?  How's this gonna work?  Joseph's allegedly a fallen prophet, but everyone after him is OK?  What do we make of the well-attested experience after Joseph's death, when various people were staking (rather dubious, in my book) claims to Joseph's prophetic mantle, and Brigham Young actually appeared to adopt (in vision, essentially) Joseph's appearance and mannerisms?  (Personally, I think that's how the Lord convinced many Church members who He wanted them to follow, but that now becomes impossible under your theory ...)  Why would that happen when, if what you posit is true, the Lord actually was ready to throw Joseph "under the wagon," so to speak?  And, although you've indicated that plural marriage isn't your only problem with Joseph, if it is at least one of them, how do you reconcile your theory with the fact that Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff also practiced/sanctioned plural marriage?  At what point did we get "back on track" after Joseph went off the rails?

 

I'd be the last to suggest that I don't have any questions about what Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets taught, but this theory of yours seems to raise more questions than it answers.  Good theories don't generally do that.  (No offense).

Newb's deep understanding of the Lord's latter-day work shines through once again!

[mormonnewb]

So, since Joseph reportedly first learned of the principles discussed in Doctrine and Covenants 132 as early as 1831, we should start throwing things out after that?  OK.    What're we left with?  How's this gonna work?  

RESPONSE: We don't have to throw out everything, just those things that are not consistent with modern revelation, which is what we do anyway (e.g., Adam-God, blood atonement, etc.).

Joseph's allegedly a fallen prophet, but everyone after him is OK?

RESPONSE: Yes! What would happen in the Church now if HF chose to remove a prophet who was leading us astray? I presume the next guy would take his place and the restoration would continue.

What do we make of the well-attested experience after Joseph's death, when various people were staking (rather dubious, in my book) claims to Joseph's prophetic mantle, and Brigham Young actually appeared to adopt (in vision, essentially) Joseph's appearance and mannerisms?  (Personally, I think that's how the Lord convinced many Church members who He wanted them to follow, but that now becomes impossible under your theory ...)  Why would that happen when, if what you posit is true, the Lord actually was ready to throw Joseph "under the wagon," so to speak?  And, although you've indicated that plural marriage isn't your only problem with Joseph, if it is at least one of them, how do you reconcile your theory with the fact that Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff also practiced/sanctioned plural marriage?  At what point did we get "back on track" after Joseph went off the rails?

RESPONSE: Now, that's a fair point. However, I don't think that HF would credit one man's mistakes to his successor, particularly if the successor became bound by those past mistakes. For example, let's suppose the Church entered into a 25-year naming rights agreement whereby the large arena in SLC would be called "The Mormondome." Let's further suppose that this caused The Lord to remove that prophet. What would HF do with his successor, who was contractually bound by this agreement? Require him to break the contract and cost the Church millions of dollars? Perhaps. But maybe HF would simply instruct the new prophet to abide by that agreement but to not make the situation worse by entering into more naming rights agreements. Maybe that was the case with polygamy. Commitments had been made under JS, but at least BY didnt expand the doctrine to allow for polyandry.

 

I'd be the last to suggest that I don't have any questions about what Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets taught, but this theory of yours seems to raise more questions than it answers.  Good theories don't generally do that.  (No offense).

RESPONSE: No offense taken. As theories go, mine is far from elegant. Although the theory isn't nearly as dreadful as my naming of the thread. That is certainly one that I wish I could take back.

[Kenngo1969]

The modern Church isn't as ready as you are to throw Joseph Smith under the wagon (or under the bus), either.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/joseph-smiths-first-prayer?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/praise-to-the-man?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/joseph-smith-prophet-of-the-restoration?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/the-prophet-joseph-smith-teacher-by-example?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-prophet-joseph-smith?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/04/joseph-smith-the-mighty-prophet-of-the-restoration?lang=eng

 

http://scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdf

 

Good luck convincing us all!!!

Edited July 16, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[MorningStar]

I don't understand how people don't know that.  It's in the D&C.  I learned it in Primary and Seminary too when we were studing the D&C.  *sigh*

[rodheadlee]

Mormonnewb said he hasn't read the D&C yet, I believe him.

[Tacenda]

I don't understand how people don't know that. It's in the D&C. I learned it in Primary and Seminary too when we were studing the D&C. *sigh*

PRIMARY? Where and how was it taught? If you don't mind me asking. I'm in my early 50's, never heard about it until I read it on the web in my late 40's.

[Storm Rider]

Often times when I read some of the comments on the Board and just look at society in general I remember George Orwell's old statement, "War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength."  We as a people seem much more willing to buy the snake oil or stick our head in the sand and then demand why we don't know there is light in the world.

 

I admit that I was a reader, but I was not a bookworm by any stretch of the imagination.  Prior to serving my mission I had read the Standard Works several times; they were important to me and had become good friends.  I certainly was not unique, but I recognize that I had put forth efforts in areas that many had not.  What I refuse to accept is that knowledge was mysteriously hidden from the public.  The fact that Joseph had instituted polygamy was a known fact; it is impossible to say it otherwise IF one had read the Doctrine & Covenants.

 

Who is to blame for ignorance?  Go to a mirror, look honestly at it, and take responsibility for the only individual in the entire world that is to blame.  There is no one else; it is not your parents; not your seminary teacher, not your Sunday School teacher, not the prophet, not the Church, not the Holy Spirit, and not God.  

 

Those who are the most ignorant want to demand the most strength.  I do not need to be in a picket line or to protest anything, but I know when these midgets of self-appointed czars have no clothes.  

 

I have a sister who is over 60 and she just recently read the Book of Mormon for the first time.  When she shared that with me I was happy for her, but I was also very dismayed.  Why does anyone expect to know God in any depth without spending time with him in study, contemplation, and prayer?  

 

Peace is not war, freedom is not allowing ourselves to be enslaved by mass media or any other spin meisters, and ignorance should be forced to acknowledge its utter weakness.