Killing Joseph Smith To Save Mormonism

[bcuzbcuz]

Well . . . I wasn't the guy facing the flaming sword, was I?

 

A backsliding Emma, after giving her consent:  does she have the right to withdraw it?

Does she have a right to withdraw her consent?????

"Oh, and she never gives out

And she never gives in

She just changes her mind"

(Thank you, Billy Joel)

[bcuzbcuz]

Emma was kept in the dark in the early 40s. I believe that she was told in 43 and was present to Joseph being sealed to 4 women. And although she consented, she quickly changed her mind and then became very protective of her marriage and wanted some ensuring in case the marriage failed.

 

"Emma was kept in the dark".

That's my problem exactly. The wife to the prophet, "kept in the dark" about his marriages and sealings to other women.

My wife says that if I was to do the same to her, I could make whatever claims I wanted but she would be out the door in seconds. Good-bye.

Now, of course, that's a modern day response but it doesn't give lie to how a woman would respond to such betrayal.

And would I want another response from the woman I love? Would I want to be married to a woman, who, upon my telling her I'd been unfaithful for many years, to many women, responded with, "Well, that's allright, dearie. Are we still going to have a Bar-B-Q this evening?"

[JLHPROF]

So we have Emma's own words vs. those said about her...

Guess we'll have to wait to find out who's lying and who's not.

 

Oh, come on.  If the Patridge sisters both claim that Emma was present at their sealing to Joseph (and presumably fulfilled the law of Sarah) why would they lie?  We know why Emma would lie?  She hated polygamy and when Joseph died would have done anything to bury it with him.

So she claimed ignorance of the whole thing when the historical records show that to be impossible.  From the tearing of the revelation to the kicking out of her home of Eliza Snow, the Patridges, to the fight with Joseph over Flora Woodworths jewlery.  From the earful she gave Hyrum to the direction to her in D&C 132 to  her participation in the endowment and second endowments she 100% knew of polygamy and Joseph's practice of it.

 

How may wives she knew about is a mystery that only she could answer?  But she 100% knew that Joseph had other wives besides her.

[JLHPROF]

"Emma was kept in the dark".

That's my problem exactly. The wife to the prophet, "kept in the dark" about his marriages and sealings to other women.

My wife says that if I was to do the same to her, I could make whatever claims I wanted but she would be out the door in seconds. Good-bye.

Now, of course, that's a modern day response but it doesn't give lie to how a woman would respond to such betrayal.

And would I want another response from the woman I love? Would I want to be married to a woman, who, upon my telling her I'd been unfaithful for many years, to many women, responded with, "Well, that's allright, dearie. Are we still going to have a Bar-B-Q this evening?"

 

You don't have to agree with it.  I don't think anyone thinks you have to.

But we KNOW why it happened and it wasn't a result of Joseph "sneaking around".

 

1. Plural marriage was revealed and commanded by God as a law of the priesthood.

2. D&C 132 Joseph and Emma are given instructions concerning the living of it and warned to obey.

3. Emma gave halfhearted consent for approximately 4-5 women to be sealed to Joseph, depending on which records.

4. Emma's belief/faith in the law wavered and she fought back in many ways.

5. Joseph was exempt from needing her permission once she refused to obey the law (as per D&C 132).

6. Joseph continued to progress in gospel law without Emma's participation despite his efforts to include her from time to time.

7. Joseph was under no obligation to cast any more pearls in that particular direction so he kept them quiet.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Oh, come on.  If the Patridge sisters both claim that Emma was present at their sealing to Joseph (and presumably fulfilled the law of Sarah) why would they lie?  We know why Emma would lie?  She hated polygamy and when Joseph died would have done anything to bury it with him.

So she claimed ignorance of the whole thing when the historical records show that to be impossible.  From the tearing of the revelation to the kicking out of her home of Eliza Snow, the Patridges, to the fight with Joseph over Flora Woodworths jewlery.  From the earful she gave Hyrum to the direction to her in D&C 132 to  her participation in the endowment and second endowments she 100% knew of polygamy and Joseph's practice of it.

 

How may wives she knew about is a mystery that only she could answer?  But she 100% knew that Joseph had other wives besides her.

People say things all the time, doesn't mean they are true...

The FACT is, is that it is their word vs. her word. The is no impartial evidence either way to prove who was lying.

 

I wish the whole polygamy issue would die. We (churches of the Restoration) all have much more in common then not, and this single issue has divided us for too long.

[JLHPROF]

People say things all the time, doesn't mean they are true...

The FACT is, is that it is their word vs. her word. The is no impartial evidence either way to prove who was lying.

 

I wish the whole polygamy issue would die. We (churches of the Restoration) all have much more in common then not, and this single issue has divided us for too long.

 

It is not "her word vs. their word".  It is "her word vs. historical facts".  Emma knew (perhaps not the extent) but Emma definitely knew.

[Stargazer]

People say things all the time, doesn't mean they are true...

The FACT is, is that it is their word vs. her word. The is no impartial evidence either way to prove who was lying.

 

I wish the whole polygamy issue would die. We (churches of the Restoration) all have much more in common then not, and this single issue has divided us for too long.

The weight of the evidence is that Joseph was commanded to, and engaged in plural marriage. That is the fact.

This single issue dividing us would no longer divide us if you non-Mormon Restorationists would simply admit that you were wrong about plural marriage, and wrong about Joseph teaching and practicing it. I will not hold my breath on this, however.

But the issue cannot die when the matter pertains to exaltation. DC 132 is very clear that those who refuse to accept that the principle of plural marriage came from God are not suitable for the highest kingdom of God.

[why me]

"Emma was kept in the dark".

That's my problem exactly. The wife to the prophet, "kept in the dark" about his marriages and sealings to other women.

My wife says that if I was to do the same to her, I could make whatever claims I wanted but she would be out the door in seconds. Good-bye.

, of course, that's a modern day response but it doesn't give lie to how a woman would respond to such betrayal.

And would I want another response from the woman I love? Would I want to be married to a woman, who, upon my telling her I'd been unfaithful for many years, to many women, responded with, "Well, that's allright, dearie. Are we still going to have a Bar-B-Q this evening?"

 

We are forgetting a couple of facts in your statement. First, Emma knew that her husband was a prophet. But she could not handle the polygamy issue. We see this with fanny when emma was jealous and sent her packing. Joseph waited several years before practiciing polygamy again. This time he taught the principle to certain people who were requested to take plural wives and be plural wives. Joseph feeling the pressure of a heavenly personage begins it again. Granted he may have made a wrong deIcision about not telling his wife in the beginning but he was between a rock and a hard place: to preserve his marriage and obey the heavenly messenger. I would not want to be in his shoes. Emma believed her husband to be a prophet and struggled with polygamy knowing that if her husband was a prophet she should submit to the principle. She even asked for a blessing from joseph before he went to carthage and joseph told her to write the blessing in her own words and he would sign it. Here is what she wrote:

 

Emma asked Joseph for a blessing not long before he went to Carthage. Joseph told her to write the best blessing she could, and he would sign it upon his return. Wrote Emma:

I desire with all my heart to honor and respect my husband as my head, ever to live in his confidence and by acting in unison with him retain the place which God has given me by his side...I desire the spirit of God to know and understand myself, I desire a fruitful, active mind, that I may be able to comprehend the designs of God, when revealed through his servants without doubting

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith/What_was_her_reaction

 

Joseph never returned but she kept the blessing. Why? Maybe all the ex members who left because of this issue should write the same blessing for themselves so to remain strong.

 

In what she wrote for her own blessing we see a woman who was struggling not with her husband being a prophet but with the revelation about polygamy. We need to keep that in mind when we decide to leave the church over joseph's polygamy. Maybe we should ask ourselves: what would emma do?

 

Emma was not the only person joseph was shy to tell. He didn't tell his brother hyrum either because he was afraid of his reaction. And hyrum's reaction when joseph told him was not good. In fact, hyrum told him that this revelation will destroy the church and get joseph killed. But what was joseph to do? He knew the dangers of polygamy but could not igore the commandment from god.

Edited July 31, 2014 by why me

[bcuzbcuz]

It is not "her word vs. their word".  It is "her word vs. historical facts".  Emma knew (perhaps not the extent) but Emma definitely knew.

I'm old enough to remember the Iran-Contra scandal during Reagan's administration. Apart from all the politicing involved, when the scope of the lawbreaking came forward, the question that was most pertinent was: " What did the president know and when did he know it?

Or as it is sometimes referenced, "What did Reagan forget and when did he forget it?"

If it is difficult to ascertain the true intent of actions in a present day event, how much more difficult must it be in a poorly documented event from more than 170 years ago.

Emma said she didn't know. Other people, with their own irons in the fire, said that she did know and participated.

I haven't seen any evidence that nails the facts down with assuredness. I think it is best to categorize it as "We don't know what Emma knew."

[Storm Rider]

How many of the prophets you mention that did bad things were really of God, maybe we or the writers of history just believed it like we do now with our prophets.

 

They were significant enough to be mentioned in the Bible.  Is the Bible the word of God or should it be ignored because it has things in it that are pleasant or that don't meet the standard we demand of what we think is important?

[Storm Rider]

Good points. This seems to deal with expectations. I would expect a man of God to live to a higher standard than others. Your response demonstrates that those expectations may not match up to reality.

I can remember laughing with glee at the tribulations of Jimmy Swaggart, and Billy Hargis. Why? Because for myself and many, many others, a self declared man of God shouldn't be caught with his pants down. Their professed "religiousness" didn't match up to how they really lived.

The further back in time one goes, the less I am engaged in whether my expectations match up to godly living. I don't get very upset about whether Jonah actually spent some time in the mouth of a whale, or not. However, if the current president of the church was involved in a sex scandal, or caught cheating on his taxes, I would be shocked, upset and outraged. It would effect my view of the church. I expect him and other leaders of the church to live to a higher standard.

I can understand why some have a perspective of Joseph Smith's life that allows them to be less harsh in their judgements. "It was a long time ago, so I can forgive Joseph." Me? I'm equally outraged today as if he was living today. Why? It comes back to expectations.

I was raised on hearing the stories of Joseph's first vision, of his translation of the Book of Mormon, of how he lived and died. He was the focal point of God's plan. I still have a high standard of expectations for someone given such responsibility. Small lies seem forgivable. Lying to his wife about marrying other women....not so much.

 

I would be careful with that standard by which you judge others; it tends to come back to become the exact standard that you will be judged.

 

Presentism is seldom a positive way to judge history.

[bcuzbcuz]

We are forgetting a couple of facts in your statement. First, Emma knew that her husband was a prophet. But she could not handle the polygamy issue. We see this with fanny when emma was jealous and sent her packing. Joseph waited several years before practiciing polygamy again. This time he taught the principle to certain people who were requested to take plural wives and be plural wives. Joseph feeling the pressure of a heavenly personage begins it again. Granted he may have made a wrong deIcision about not telling his wife in the beginning but he was between a rock and a hard place: to preserve his marriage and obey the heavenly messenger. I would not want to be in his shoes. Emma believed her husband to be a prophet and struggled with polygamy knowing that if her husband was a prophet she should submit to the principle. She even asked for a blessing from joseph before he went to carthage and joseph told her to write the blessing in her own words and he would sign it. Here is what she wrote:

 

Emma asked Joseph for a blessing not long before he went to Carthage. Joseph told her to write the best blessing she could, and he would sign it upon his return. Wrote Emma:

I desire with all my heart to honor and respect my husband as my head, ever to live in his confidence and by acting in unison with him retain the place which God has given me by his side...I desire the spirit of God to know and understand myself, I desire a fruitful, active mind, that I may be able to comprehend the designs of God, when revealed through his servants without doubting

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith/What_was_her_reaction

 

Joseph never returned but she kept the blessing. Why? Maybe all the ex members who left because of this issue should write the same blessing for themselves so to remain strong.

 

In what she wrote for her own blessing we see a woman who was struggling not with her husband being a prophet but with the revelation about polygamy. We need to keep that in mind when we decide to leave the church over joseph's polygamy. Maybe we should ask ourselves: what would emma do?

 

Emma was not the only person joseph was shy to tell. He didn't tell his brother hyrum either because he was afraid of his reaction. And hyrum's reaction when joseph told him was not good. In fact, hyrum told him that this revelation will destroy the church and get joseph killed. But what was joseph to do? He knew the dangers of polygamy but could not igore the commandment from god.

What would your reaction be if, upon asking for a patriarchal blessing, the patriarch says, "Write the best blessing you can and I'll sign it."

Passing the buck, comes to mind. Missing the intent, seems relevant as well. Can't be bothered? Settling an argument with, "Yeah, whatever."

[why me]

What would your reaction be if, upon asking for a patriarchal blessing, the patriarch says, "Write the best blessing you can and I'll sign it."

Passing the buck, comes to mind. Missing the intent, seems relevant as well. Can't be bothered? Settling an argument with, "Yeah, whatever."

So, from my nice post to you I get another negative? What Joseph showed to emma is the deepest respect for her own spirituality in the blessing that she herself needed. And she wrote it hoping for his return so that he could give it to her. But he never returned but she kept that blessing with her. This is the blessing that she needed. And it was a wonderful blessing. My reaction would be simple: the GA trusted me enough to know what my needs are and to write them on paper for my personal blessing and then these needs would be asked for and hopefully granted by god I would fee good. But you only see passing the buck? And what argument? He is going to prison and emma is worried about his life. You really need to come out of your negativity and see the beauty of the blessing that she wrote. Maybe she also wrote for you and for me? And for anyone who has doubted?

 

Maybe we all should kneel tonight with this blessing in hand and say it out loud to god because it is so beautiful and meaningful. It also shows just how spiritual emma was and the trust that she had in her husband as prophet.

Edited July 31, 2014 by why me

[USU78]

Thomas Ford did in fact give Joseph Smith good advice about how he could better get along with his neighbors.  Joseph Smith chose to disregard that advice.  Of course that doesn't justify how some of Joseph Smith's enemies reacted.

 

Ford wasn't a fan of Joseph Smith, but he did genuinly want peace in Illinois.  His harshest criticisms are targeted towards the mob.  Lumping him in with them is inaccurate and unfair.

 

When did Ford write this up?  Yes, that's right.  When?  Let me give you a hint:  in the period between the expulsion and Utah exodus and the Utah Mormon War of 1857-58.  Public opinion was squarely with the Saints when he wrote and published.  Of course he would criticize the mobs.  He could not safely do otherwise and maintain his legacy, such as it was.

 

Fact remains: he offers protection to JSJr and Hyrum if they'll voluntarily go to Carthage.  They do.  He doesn't.

 

So I return to my earlier question:  do you defend Ford on the basis of a claim he thought he had more control over events and people than he actually did?  That he, perhaps, was deceived by the Carthaginians?

 

If so, then we can agree to disagree.  If you believe something else, I'd love to hear it fleshed out and not by quoting extensively by his self-serving apologia for his administration.

[USU78]

Does she have a right to withdraw her consent?????

"Oh, and she never gives out

And she never gives in

She just changes her mind"

(Thank you, Billy Joel)

 

Really?  This appeal to that authority?