Elder Benson Conference Talk/Report (1967)

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

After 18 hours of clarification (and hopefully a second, more careful read of the talk), why haven't you disabused yourself of the notion that Elder Benson asserted that "MLK's underlying message was just a communist plot?" All he said was that it was being co-opted and misused by a threatening contingency for its own interests.

"There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba.
This shocking statement can be confirmed by an objective study of Communist literature and activities and by knowledgeable Negroes and others who have worked within the Communist movement."

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So the prophet of the church and top leadership were/are aware of what is getting presented at a conference to millions of people.  Also, to ensure other leaders/speakers don't just talk as men and are speaking in accordance with what the prophet of the church approves/wants.  

I don't know how conference talks work, but are you saying they don't get reviewed/vetted/approved by top leadership?  They just assign a topic and let the speaker go with it?

By the time a man reaches the level of General Authority (or a woman or man the level of general auxiliary leader) they have proven themselves worthy of implicit trust such that they don't need to be micromanaged. 

So, no, under routine circumstances, general conference speakers are not assigned their subjects in advance, much less having their talks "vetted." 

Sorry if that shocks your sensibilities, but maybe that's just one thing that separates the Church of Jesus Christ from earthly organizations or other churches. 

Mormon history scholar Richard Bushman called this "the routinization of charisma," meaning Church members expect called leaders in the Church to seek and receive divine guidance to the point that they generally can be expected to do the right thing. And no, this is not to say they are infallible, only that they are generally trustworthy. There is a substantial distinction. 

[Ouagadougou]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Ok just curious if you were aware of the violence surrounding the Civil Rights movement.? For example, Did you know the 82nd and 101st Airborne were called out to the 1968 Detroit riot. Over 2000 buildings were burned down etc During the Watts riots we could see L.A. burning from 40 miles away. Do you know who the Weathermen were? The Black Panthers? Did you know the Anti War movement and the Civil Rights movement were running simultaneous in the 60s? This stuff was on the TV every single night from the assassination of President Kennedy onward. Were you aware that in the summer of 1967 there were 159 race riots in the US alone? Hundreds died, thousands were wounded, The National Guard was killing students as well as rioters And you don't think the Cold War caused Russia to send agents to America to help foment unrest? Man I wished I could go through life that naive.

Just four years before Elder Benson's talk was given, MLK gave one of the greatest speeches of the century, IMO.  

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm

"And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

MLK's words/ideas during this time period are much more inspiring for me (from God) than anything the church taught on race 50 years and more (from its origins until after 1978) ago.  So, MLK was light years ahead of the church's position as it pertains to race/equality in the 1960's.  If you like, I can provide numerous quotes/references from church leaders concerning their views on race from the time of Brigham Young until 1978.  But I guess every prophet from Brigham Young until 1978 was just speaking as a man...

[Ouagadougou]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By the time a man reaches the level of General Authority (or a woman or man the level of general auxiliary leader) they have proven themselves worthy of implicit trust such that they don't need to be micromanaged. 

So, no, under routine circumstances, general conference speakers are not assigned their subjects in advance, much less having their talks "vetted." 

Sorry if that shocks your sensibilities, but maybe that's just one thing that separates the Church of Jesus Christ from earthly organizations or other churches. 

Mormon history scholar Richard Bushman called this "the routinization of charisma," meaning Church members expect called leaders in the Church to seek and receive divine guidance to the point that they generally can be expected to do the right thing. And no, this is not to say they are infallible, only that they are generally trustworthy. There is a substantial distinction. 

I didn't know that...thanks for sharing!  

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

In retrospect, you think MLK's Civil Rights Movement was what he stated below in this talk?

"There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba."

I think this talk is deplorable...but that's my own opinion.  😀

No I don't think this is even talking about MLK's movement in particular, but rather manipulations to control that movement:

"Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights; it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming."

In light of what Lynden B. Johnson said:

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference."

It is obvious that some manipulation was being planned for, especially after he said this:

"I'll have those n****** voting Democratic for 200 years."

And in our day and age it seems to have become a true statement.

I can't verify (so don't ask for a CFR), but I have no doubt that these manipulations included infiltration of followers of MLK's movement in order for it to be manipulated and used similarly to how agrarian reform was previously used. Just as now, groups like Black Lives Matter have been manipulated by leftist leaning people and companies, like George Soros' $30,000,000.00 in seed money to form the group, and Google's contribution of $2,350,000.00 as was exposed from The Washington Times, and Essence Magazine respectively.

I have seen BLM create hatred and trigger violence, although I haven't seen it overthrow the government yet.

This part below let's me know it isn't talking about MLK as being a Communist leader, but rather unseen participants manipulating the direction it was going:

"1. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder. Not one in a thousand Americans—black or white—really understands the full implications of today's civil rights agitation. The planning, direction, and leadership come from the Communists, and most of those are white men who fully intend to destroy America by spilling Negro blood, rather than their own."

It's a wake up call that we still need to this day. Not some accusation against MLK.

 

[PeterPear]

20 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was asking if his talk was vetted; I do not know how how that process works, but I would hope talks get vetted in some manner. 

AMAZING! Absolutely amazing! Members of the LDS Church complaining about Pres. Benson in answer to a question by an admitted less-active member of the Church.

"Well, Pres. Benson was wrong!"

"Pres. Benson was fallible!"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Was a wonderful person!" (even when Pres. Benson never referred to him by name).

Oh boo hoo! Let's all be embarrased by Pres. Benson because of the mocking pointing fingers in the Great and Spacious Building! Let's all run to our safe space! WAA! Waaa!

Have any of you CRY BABIES considered looking up the point of view of the Communist Party? Apparently not.

Ever heard of Peoples World, a publication by the Communist Party? This 2014 article brags about the Communists involved in the Civil Rights movement.

http://www.peoplesworld.org/article/communists-and-the-long-struggle-for-african-american-equality/

Use your freaking brains before you rip on a President of the Church! Seriously, I wouldn't want any of you covering my back! You sell outs!

Edited November 27, 2016 by PeterPear

[rodheadlee]

54 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Just four years before Elder Benson's talk was given, MLK gave one of the greatest speeches of the century, IMO.  

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm

"And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

MLK's words/ideas during this time period are much more inspiring for me (from God) than anything the church taught on race 50 years and more (from its origins until after 1978) ago.  So, MLK was light years ahead of the church's position as it pertains to race/equality in the 1960's.  If you like, I can provide numerous quotes/references from church leaders concerning their views on race from the time of Brigham Young until 1978.  But I guess every prophet from Brigham Young until 1978 was just speaking as a man...

Yeah, I heard the speech live. What you are missing is this had to happen first, before the priesthood was given to blacks.Think about it.

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/26/2016 at 4:06 PM, CV75 said:

I think you’d have to poll those who heard the talk when it was given to get a most accurate sense of what was meant by, “Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights; it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming.” I think he meant to describe how a good thing was getting coopted to further evil and designing purposes of conspiring men – enough to warrant a warning from the watchtower. We’ve heard the same today from the pulpit for a couple of decades now about the Internet (a good thing) and pornography (its abuse), for example.

 

Yes, I think we need to use the Spirit to discern whether a General Conference speaker’s message is of God or not, to have charity and patience when we’re not sure, and faith in the Lord and the bigger picture when we are personally bothered or disturbed.

 

I think someone who thinks a General Conference speaker’s talk is not from God needs to assess that impression in context of his overall impression of his experience with the Restored Gospel and act on his faith according to a personal relationship with God. Hopefully he has had a friend, a responsibility and has been nurturing himself with the good word of God all along.

 

Being one of those who heard the talk, I can witness that what you describe is correct. Those were tumultuous, fearful, and violent times. There were destructive elements including communist radicals who used the movement for their own purposes - much like the professional rioters who use peaceful protests for their own agendas today. Nothing is new under the sun. No heartburn for me with this talk.

Did you just come upon this by chance?

Edited November 28, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Why do you assume his talk was vetted?

They don't vet them now from what has been reported, there were some apostles that didn't keep to their talks or didn't prepare a set speech in the past so no vetting there either (think Legrand Richards if you are young and having a hard time imagining it)

 

I saw that talk. I loved Legrand Richards. One of a kind. They don't make 'em like this any more, unfortunately. I remember listening to an anti-Mormon program on a Seattle religious radio station. I believe the guest was one of Ed Decker's cohorts. He was telling the audience of the time he saw the great Mormon apostle Legrand Richards quote a Bible scripture in the Tabernacle at General Conference and then realizing the scripture contradicted Mormon doctrine, abruptly ended his talk and sat down in embarrassment and shame. My thoughts.... nope. Liar liar pants on fire. Never happened. Not Legrand Richards. Uhuh.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

"There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba.
This shocking statement can be confirmed by an objective study of Communist literature and activities and by knowledgeable Negroes and others who have worked within the Communist movement."

When do you think the movement began? When were civil rights laws first passed in the USA? When was 1967? What do you think "is used" refers to?

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

AND by the way I was a communist in 1967.

He was right.

I knew there was something familiar about you.

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I have underlined the important part.

Also, were you alive and an adult during that time? I remember race riots and looting during that time - somewhat similar to what is happening today.

Well, those days were worse by a factor of 10 or more. There was some serious stuff going on. Our Church authorities were doing their best to keep the members reassured and focused.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Of course not.  In hind sight it is just embarrassing and shows just how far off the mark some leaders can go.

On the other hand, it also shows them to be in touch with the spirit of the times and to speak the words of warning and comfort the Church needs to hear....having been there myself.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Has Elder Benson's contention ever been disproven? That is, has it been definitively shown that communist revolutionaries did not try to co-opt the civil rights movement to serve their own political agenda?  

Most people alive today are too young to have lived through the Cold War and don't understand the tensions that were pervasive back then. I'm old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis. I was too young to understand what was going on, but the doomsday sense that was in the air is vivid in my memory. Our school lunchroom, in the basement of our building, was a designated nuclear fallout shelter. I still remember the yellow civil defense sign in the stairway going down to it    

And what gives you the idea that General Conference talks were "vetted" by the Church president? That doesn't happen today; what makes you think it happened back then? 

I grew up in Los Alamos, New Mexico. We were in the top 5 primary targets for Russian nuclear attack should the unthinkable ever happen. We had daily 5pm tests of the air raid sirens, designated bomb shelters we were assigned to, and periodic practice evacuations of the entire city. My friend Larry and I even volunteered to be by sky watchers to keep an eye out for Russian bombers. We thought this was a jolly adventure, but the fears and preparations were very real. So were the Soviet spies in the laboratory where our parents worked. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I agree.  I am in no way trying to make fun of Elder Benson; rather, I want to understand how others continue to trust church leaders when they are so far off the mark.  

He was not off the mark. I was there.

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Being one of those who heard the talk, I can witness that what you describe is correct. Those were tumultuous, fearful, and violent times. There were destructive elements including communist radicals who used the movement for their own purposes - much like the professional rioters who use peaceful protests for their own agendas today. Nothing is new under the sun. No heartburn for me with this talk.

Did you just come upon this by chance?

I think I came upon my observation by reading the talk with an open mind, even though it's 50 years later. I was a 10 year-old non-member when the talk was given (converted to the Church in my college years), so I was completely out of the loop about prophetic guidance at the time. Since then I've lived in enough places overseas where the kind of thing Elder Benson describes clearly took place (if not by communists by the extreme opposite faction--and typically both at the same time!), which affected the lives and well-being of members of the Church. So no surprise to me that he would teach about it, no more than it surprises me that Elder Bednar would teach about virtual reality (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/06/things-as-they-really-are?lang=eng).

But I do remember the Civil Rights Act being passed (we covered current events in grade school--kudos to the NYC public school system, and I had a summer subscription to "My Weekly Reader," kudos to my parents), and that was certainly a good thing.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Of course not.  In hind sight it is just embarrassing and shows just how far off the mark some leaders can go.

Exactly how was he off the mark?

[Ouagadougou]

56 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah, I heard the speech live. What you are missing is this had to happen first, before the priesthood was given to blacks.Think about it.

And what role did the church play in helping African Americans during this time as it relates to Civil Rights?  The played no role whatsoever.  Some members of the church were excommunicated for advocating/supporting blacks receiving the priesthood (even in the 1970's).  The church and its leadership were on the wrong side of history, IMO.  

 

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/4237266/lds_scoutmaster_byron_marchant/

[Ouagadougou]

45 minutes ago, CV75 said:

When do you think the movement began? When were civil rights laws first passed in the USA? When was 1967? What do you think "is used" refers to?

- I think it began in the early 1950's (1953 or 1954) for African Americans.  

- 1968

- 1967

- practice of using

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, PeterPear said:

AMAZING! Absolutely amazing! Members of the LDS Church complaining about Pres. Benson in answer to a question by an admitted less-active member of the Church.

"Well, Pres. Benson was wrong!"

"Pres. Benson was fallible!"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Was a wonderful person!" (even when Pres. Benson never referred to him by name).

Oh boo hoo! Let's all be embarrased by Pres. Benson because of the mocking pointing fingers in the Great and Spacious Building! Let's all run to our safe space! WAA! Waaa!

Have any of you CRY BABIES considered looking up the point of view of the Communist Party? Apparently not.

Ever heard of Peoples World, a publication by the Communist Party? This 2014 article brags about the Communists involved in the Civil Rights movement.

http://www.peoplesworld.org/article/communists-and-the-long-struggle-for-african-american-equality/

Use your freaking brains before you rip on a President of the Church! Seriously, I wouldn't want any of you covering my back! You sell outs!

I am in no way a communist 😃.  Further, I don't see why my church activity has to do with this discussion.  Actually, I started going to church once a month now, so technically, I might fall into the active category 😇

So...if Elder Benson (at the time) was wrong, then it means he gave advice/guidance that the members shouldn't have heeded.  

I am embarrassed by the way the Church treated African Americans for so many years; I am ashamed of it, as all members should be ashamed, IMO.  

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

 Members of the LDS Church complaining about Pres. Benson....

You are aware that not everyone posting in this forum or on this thread are members, right?

[Marmonboy]

Be ashamed if you must. But stop being guilty of presentism by enforcing modern standards on the past. Like it or not, there were Communists within the civil rights movement and its close ally, the antiwar movement.

[mnn727]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, those days were worse by a factor of 10 or more. 

Not to me they weren't. There is almost no difference between the Black Panthers and the BLM folks except for who is funding them.

Edited November 28, 2016 by mnn727

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Not to me they weren't. There is almost no difference between the Black Panthers and the BLM folks except for who is funding them.

Why?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why?

Can't edit.  How are you comparing them, your measures that come out the same?

Also, how familiar were/are you with the Black Panthers as well as BLM?  How much have you studied them?  From where have you gotten your info on them?