Statistics And Church Growth

[rockpond]

If the church's goal is growth then it should continue to do what it's doing. If its goal is helping its members achieve exaltation, then changes need to be made in the missionary program.

Actually, what we are currently doing is proving to be less and less effective at increasing growth.

[omni]

Actually, what we are currently doing is proving to be less and less effective at increasing growth.

Correct, but it's still growing numerically. However if the goal is exaltation then I would estimate that for every convert who endures to the end three or four fall away, essentially losing their exaltation.

[rockpond]

Correct, but it's still growing numerically. However if the goal is exaltation then I would estimate that for every convert who endures to the end three or four fall away, essentially losing their exaltation.

Well, it's growing numerically but if we continue the current trend we won't even be growing numerically within another 10-15 years.

But I agree with your sentiment about exaltation.

[Bikeemikey]

I don't know if they have publicly stated that but I can't think of any other way to handle it.  Can you imagine if someone returned to activity in the church, for example, in their 80's only to discover that the church removed their records since they had passed the median age of death (or something like that)?  Not a conversation that any ward clerk wants to have with a newly reactivated senior citizen.

Someone stated on this forum that the church counts people until they are 115 unless they know of a death record.

Any takers on the accuracy of this?

[omni]

Someone stated on this forum that the church counts people until they are 115 unless they know of a death record.

Any takers on the accuracy of this?

I believe it's actually 110. You won't find an official source from the church for it, but it's pretty well known among the blogosphere.

[Bikeemikey]

I believe it's actually 110. You won't find an official source from the church for it, but it's pretty well known among the blogosphere.

Thanks.

[Calm]

I believe it's actually 110. You won't find an official source from the church for it, but it's pretty well known among the blogosphere.

That is my understanding as well. I will ask my husband if as the membership clerk he got any instructions on that if I remember. I believe the same age is used for assuming temple proxy ordinances are okay to be performed for individuals no longer in contact with the family unless other circumstances apply such as they have been declared dead or missing at sea (as occurred with a family member of my husband's). Edited April 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Anteojito]

What percentage of members do we think resign and/or are excommunicated each year? Half a percent? More? Less?

Looking at our stats, it seems a mathematical impossibility that the church is removing their numbers from the total membership count.

Well according to Elder Jensen, the church is in a period of apostasy like that one in Kirkland but I think that most people who leave the church for good don't get their names removed either because they want to keep peace with a family member or that just don't care about it. For my wife and I it was important to have our names remove. We did not want some new Bishop thinking it was his duty/right to reactivate us. We did not want anyone in the church to think that they had any authority over us.

 

I think it makes sense for the church to maintain records of people who are excommunicated. I think for the most part people who are excommunicated want to come back to the church at some point.

[Bikeemikey]

That is my understanding as well. I will ask my husband if as the membership clerk he got any instructions on that if I remember. I believe the same age is used for assuming temple proxy ordinances are okay to be performed for individuals no longer in contact with the family unless other circumstances apply such as they have been declared dead or missing at sea (as occurred with a family member of my husband's).

 

Thanks interesting, I hadn't thought about the issue as relating to temple work.

[Bikeemikey]

Well according to Elder Jensen, the church is in a period of apostasy like that one in Kirkland but I think that most people who leave the church for good don't get their names removed either because they want to keep peace with a family member or that just don't care about it. For my wife and I it was important to have our names remove. We did not want some new Bishop thinking it was his duty/right to reactivate us. We did not want anyone in the church to think that they had any authority over us.

 

I think it makes sense for the church to maintain records of people who are excommunicated. I think for the most part people who are excommunicated want to come back to the church at some point.

 

They have to keep some records... otherwise the local kiddie fiddler would just remove his name from the Church records, relocate, and then no one would know he was an abuser... this is just one extreme example of the hundreds of legitimate reasons to keep some records even for exed or now formally unaffiliated members.

 

If you get exed you have to be rebaptised right?

 

If you have your name removed from the roles of the church do you have to do likewise?

[Anteojito]

They have to keep some records... otherwise the local kiddie fiddler would just remove his name from the Church records, relocate, and then no one would know he was an abuser... this is just one extreme example of the hundreds of legitimate reasons to keep some records even for exed or now formally unaffiliated members.

 

If you get exed you have to be rebaptised right?

 

If you have your name removed from the roles of the church do you have to do likewise?

After I had my name removed, I got a form letter from the church telling me that I was no longer a member and that my priesthood and temples blessings were revoked or something like that. If I should somehow want to come back I would have to be re-baptized. Fat chance of that happening though 

[Bikeemikey]

After I had my name removed, I got a form letter from the church telling me that I was no longer a member and that my priesthood and temples blessings were revoked or something like that. If I should somehow want to come back I would have to be re-baptized. Fat chance of that happening though 

 

I was under the impression that exed members had their temple work restored to them along with sealings etc... exed members have to be rebaptised not not repeat personal temple work... any idea on if this is accurate...

 

Any chance there is a copy of such a letter around, id be interested in seeing one.

 

The idea that a voluntary separation from the church would dissolve the priesthood ordinances one has received seems a little strange to me. Im curious why the church takes that stance, perhaps they have found that members who request name removal are actually looking for this.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Calm]

"I was under the impression that exed members had their temple work restored to them along with sealings etc... exed members have to be rebaptised not not repeat personal temple work... any idea on if this is accurate..."

The only I remember a friend having to do was be rebaptized.

[Anteojito]

I was under the impression that exed members had their temple work restored to them along with sealings etc... exed members have to be rebaptised not not repeat personal temple work... any idea on if this is accurate...

 

Any chance there is a copy of such a letter around, id be interested in seeing one.

 

The idea that a voluntary separation from the church would dissolve the priesthood ordinances one has received seems a little strange to me. Im curious why the church takes that stance, perhaps they have found that members who request name removal are actually looking for this.

i'll look around and see if I still have it. I threw out most of my church related stuff a long time ago.

[Duncan]

I have a friend who had his name removed years ago. he came back and wasn't rebaptized, he had to have an interview with the Stake President though and it seems they re activated his account so to speak. He is now serving as a Bishop and he is my dentist, not a good dentist but a dentist nonetheless

Edited April 13, 2014 by Duncan

[Bikeemikey]

"I was under the impression that exed members had their temple work restored to them along with sealings etc... exed members have to be rebaptised not not repeat personal temple work... any idea on if this is accurate..."

The only I remember a friend having to do was be rebaptized.

That is consistent with the information that's been shared with me.

Do you know if the church still has the three strikes policy with excommunication?

[readstoomuch]

We had a family friend who was rebaptized after having been excommunicated. I have also heard of people having hands placed on their heads and having their blessings restored. So, I am not sure the method. Thankful that some find their way back and it works for them. It did for our friend. I don`t know of limits for being reinstated. My impression is that it is more strict for transgression than having name removed at their request.

Anteojito,

Do you really think that most people who have been excommunicated want to come back eventually? Is that what you said? Doesn`t sound like you see that for yourself though.

[Anteojito]

We had a family friend who was rebaptized after having been excommunicated. I have also heard of people having hands placed on their heads and having their blessings restored. So, I am not sure the method. Thankful that some find their way back and it works for them. It did for our friend. I don`t know of limits for being reinstated. My impression is that it is more strict for transgression than having name removed at their request.

Anteojito,

Do you really think that most people who have been excommunicated want to come back eventually? Is that what you said? Doesn`t sound like you see that for yourself though.

I wasn't excommunicated, I had my name removed. I was keeping the commandments and covenants to the best of my abilities all the way up until I decided to leave. I was not looking for a reason to leave. I sacrificed a lot when I joined the church (my family for one). I wanted it to be true with all my heart.

[readstoomuch]

I wasn`t saying you were excommunicated Ante. I was trying to understand what you were saying in another post. It sounds like you are saying that there is a reason to keep the excommunicated records, because they want to come back. People who had their name removed do not feel the same way.

[Avatar4321]

I wasn't excommunicated, I had my name removed. I was keeping the commandments and covenants to the best of my abilities all the way up until I decided to leave. I was not looking for a reason to leave. I sacrificed a lot when I joined the church (my family for one). I wanted it to be true with all my heart.

 

Good news. it is true.

[Anteojito]

I wasn`t saying you were excommunicated Ante. I was trying to understand what you were saying in another post. It sounds like you are saying that there is a reason to keep the excommunicated records, because they want to come back. People who had their name removed do not feel the same way.

That is my take on it anyway.

[Anteojito]

Good news. it is true.

Of course you are free to believe what you want,

[Calm]

That is consistent with the information that's been shared with me.

Do you know if the church still has the three strikes policy with excommunication?

Last time I read something about it they did.  I think that was about two years ago with the latest Vol 1 edition of the Handbook.  (with the caveat that I must attached to everything I can't doublecheck these days…my memory isn't as reliable as it once was, if it is something important please check with someone who will know for sure).

Edited April 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Thanks interesting, I hadn't thought about the issue as relating to temple work.

So my husband says he doesn't know of any process flagging possibly out of date wardmembers when they theoretically hit 110, never had the opportunity to find out either. Says if you are willing to wait when he's 109, that he will intentionally go off the grid and go missing to see what happens in a year.

Edited April 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

Stargazer, you should write a book about how to be a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", not, how to be a "Mormon".

Oh, good catch!

Except that he did say that you could call yourself a Mormon, if you wanted. :-D