Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses Are Converting More Than The LDS

[Islander]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:21 PM, David Waltz said:

I am former JW (4th generation), and one thing I am quite sure of is the accuracy of statistical reporting by the WTBTS. Their statistics are meticulously compiled, and from my experience (which includes information from a personal friend of mine who worked at the HQ in NY for 4 years), I seriously doubt that they 'fudge' any of the numbers they provide each year. 

As for your statement that, "They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism", this is not true, only those folk who are able to understand and make their assent to dozens of questions prior to baptism, and then are baptized, are counted as "new members". 

Further, only those baptized members who are actively engaged in the preaching work are counted as members. When I was a member, members who were inactive for 3 consecutive months were dropped from the active members list. 

 

Grace and peace,

David

Slow down and read my post. I said: " "They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism" meaning, when they understand, accept and embrace the faith. But they were BORN there. They are not true "converts".

They do NOT drop people from the membership after three month. No church in America does that. My brother in-law is a more or less "inactive member"  and has been for years, but a member nevertheless. They may attend 2-3 times a year. They have not been dropped. If one thing I know fairly well is mathematics and statistics, on account of my field of study. Comparing year-over-year their stats, it seems like nobody died, when you look at the total numbers by categories. A typical slide of hands when fudging numbers.

In sum, I cited a well-known, published researcher as a good source of information. Feel free to disagree.

Best of luck

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm still skeptical that the new ministering system works any better than home and visiting teaching used to.

When I lived in England back at the turn of the 60/70s I heard some interesting stories about that. Apparently there was a mission president sometime in the 50s who got a lot of young men in southern England interested in attending a basketball program he started in the mission area, and after things were up and running, made baptism a condition of continued participation. I don't know if he required being taught the gospel an additional condition. But anyway, the legacy of this was having a large number of people who were on the records being basically nulls. Finally, someone carried through a project involving find all those basketball baptisms to determine if any had ever actually been believers. Most barely remembered being baptized and had no interest in the Church. And their names were quietly dropped from the records. I don't know if this actually removed the names from the records of the church, but at least the branches didn't have to try to fellowship them any longer.

During the time of my mission in Germany, from 1972-74, we were at a low ebb in terms of baptisms. In fact, the lowest on record. It was better both before and after I was there -- I don't think I personally jinxed it, but who knows? But based on what I learned later, a good portion of the few converts during that time later turned out to be a good corps of future leaders. I believe that was because we were teaching and baptizing people who were actual converts to the gospel as opposed to converts to the missionaries.

Anyway, in connection with pressure, our mission president required us to report our activity, and judged it according to a number of metrics, including how many lessons were taught, how many copies of the Book of Mormon were being distributed (I once took a few copies and reverse-shoplifted them into a book store, marked "Kostenlos" ("Free")), how many door approaches were made, and how many were spoken to at street meetings. He did not push baptisms. Now, some might think that's why were there were relatively few, but without changing techniques in his third year, baptisms bounced back. Also, it didn't help that in his second year the Church radically changed the proselyting lessons from the old-timey "Six Discussions" (that I was taught as an investigator) to a totally new system. Learning the new system with its color-coded lessons was, in my personal opinion, a disaster. We worked on them for weeks, and it really cut into our contacting time. And I don't recall ever teaching a single investigator using them, either. I was in the last nine months of my mission in any case. The thing is, it actually seemed like literally no-one was interested. Members had no referrals, every single door contact was "Not interested," and while there were a couple of SLC visitor center self-referrals, those didn't pan out, either. 

That third year "bounce back" might have been due to a couple of factors. The first being that a member of the Q12 visited our mission and as one of my former companions reported to me, basically re-dedicated the mission for the preaching of the Gospel. The second was probably a new crop of missionaries who had been taught the new investigator lessons from the ground up, and were more prepared to teach than we had been. Or, it might have been because the people themselves had become more ready due to world and national events. 

We were only working in the larger towns (and not all of those, either), and there were smaller towns and villages that we never did any contacting in. I have since wondered if we had expanded our reach maybe we might have found some real "stars" out there? But we would have needed about three or four times the missionaries to have done that.

That's the thing, you know? One-by-one contacting has its limitations. And members, even if willing to talk to those in their own circles, are still limited by the size of their circles. 

I myself was a convert due to a member being willing to "open his mouth" and bring up the church to someone he had just met. It was entirely in context and unforced. And it worked, probably because I was ready.

I'll bet that had an invigorating effect!

At least in my ward, we are not getting a lot of testimony-free new converts -- largely because we're not getting a lot of converts. But even so, those with testimonies are not necessarily "valiant", if you know what I mean. We have one young man who was baptized in the past year who has just received the Melchizedek priesthood. And another who, along with his wife, hasn't been attending enough to even receive the Aaronic priesthood -- these two are relatives of strong members from another stake, and are clearly believing but not enough to continue strong.

In my observation, England is not a hotbed of new converts, or even of testimony-free "social baptisms". But my old ward in Washington state wasn't either.

Are you thinking of those "Chick tracts"? I had seen a few of those in the distant past. 

Here's a link to one I found on their "official" website: https://chick.com/products/tract?stk=22&ue=d

I guess it's intended for Christians, to encourage them to talk to non-Christians about Christ. It portrays a situation where a man is scheduled to die of a coronary in a couple of weeks, and how a squad of angels and a squad of devils are trying to organize things in order to, respectively, get him to accept Christ before he dies, and prevent him from doing so. It's kind of entertaining, in a way. And maybe it does encourage someone to share Christ with others. I don't know.

But Chick is going by the premise that a man is "saved" if only he makes a verbal commitment to Christ, baptism being completely optional. And, spoiler alert, while he was finally talked to by someone about "converting", he puts it off to the next day, and he dies in the night. So, off to Hell he goes, I guess. Chick never checked 1 Cor 15:29, I guess.

Here in England we get a lot of missionaries from many more countries than we see in the US. We get a lot of missionaries from the UK, too, which when I was living here in 1969-71 was very unusual. But in our ward over the past few years, we've gotten missionaries from as far away as Papua New Guinea! In fact, both the missionaries in the companionship were from PNG. As a matter of trivia, PNG is nearly as far away from England as it's possible to get, being very close to England's antipode. A couple of days ago when I was serving as an ordinance worker in the temple, we had a couple of new full-time missionaries from being trained as temporary ordinance workers who were from Guinea-Bissau in West Africa!

It hasn't seemed to me that any of our recent full-time missionaries were hampered in any way, but perhaps some were but I just hadn't noticed.

I think the new service missionary calling is intended to allow those with mental or emotional problems to serve, so that it might accommodate those who can't quite hack full-time service. It might also be good alternative for folks like my wife and I who aren't mentally or emotionally hampered, but whose physical conditions aren't conducive to sending us out to the far reaches of the world.

Well, at least I'm claiming to not be hampered emotionally or mentally. Only Morningstar and Bernard Gui have met me in real life, and I've sworn them to secrecy.  

Having the shotgun pointed at was an ADHD moment. I actually strangely enjoyed it. It kicked through the brain static.

I wasn’t thinking Jack Chick. I was thinking the stuff they gave their membership that suggested that if you say the right things and ask the right leading questions you will save someone. It was ridiculously unrealistic. There were lots of these. The tract I got for Muslims to convert Christians with was better and it wasn’t that good and basically started with blasphemy to the Christian. Probably not the best approach but it least it might have some shock value.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Are the legions of Lucifer really as well-organized as all that? The world wonders. Sounds like a Chick tract.

I will confess to not being entirely certain what you mean by this.

I doubt it. The tactic is sound but Screwtape overgeneralizes. The reality is you use that technique on the individual level and warn cruel people against being sentimental and lecherous people of being Puritanical and then they will turn on each other.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Poor undeveloped nations generally wouldn’t diagnose these issues if they were there.

This is probably true for mental health issues known to have purely biological causes, but there’s an entire academic literature on how culturally determined and culturally bound everything else is. Historians can trace, for example, the spread of Western disorders into the professional literature of other societies. Once that happens, those same maladies begin to appear despite no historical precedent. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Duplicate.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

Duplicate. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I just saw in the news that Indonesia is passing some restrictive legislation, including criminalizing "apostasy" from Islam. How do you think this is going to affect your missionary work? Which religion do the majority of conversions come from?

I haven’t lived in Indonesia since 1997. I’m not sure what you’re reporting, but freedom of religious choice is guaranteed in the Indonesian Constitution.* Most Church members when I lived there were former Muslims, followed by former Buddhists (ethnic Chinese).

Regarding conversions here, our most recent convert was an atheist. Of the two people we’ve had in our home to meet with missionaries this week (one twice), one was raised JW but stopped affiliating 10 years ago, and the other is a Muslim whose father is an inactive Saint. 

-----

ETA: *I've had time tonight to try to find out more. I'm still not certain, but this site claims that the amendment 'criminalizes any person who intends to change another’s religion or become irreligious by means of public incitement or threats', ostensibly to protect against forced conversions.

I've tried to find the actual amendments online so that I can read them for myself, but no luck so far.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is probably true for mental health issues known to have purely biological causes, but there’s an entire academic literature on how culturally determined and culturally bound everything else is. Historians can trace, for example, the spread of Western disorders into the professional literature of other societies. Once that happens, those same maladies begin to appear despite no historical precedent. 

That is a very fringe movement. It is hardly an “entire academic literature”.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is a very fringe movement. It is hardly an “entire academic literature”.

Not so. Part of my master's program in history in the US included studying dozens of such historical accounts. Historians have been onto this phenomenon for a very long time, and now psychology is finally catching up, grudgingly acknowledging that most research has been conducted (and still is) in WEIRD societies, and that such societies are actually on the extreme (fringe) of human experience, especially when viewed from within the global historical context. In many cases, psychological studies conducted in America simply do not work in other populations, contributing to what has been called psychology's 'replication crisis'.

We are accustomed to analysing the more outward impacts of Western colonialism, but the colonisation of the mind is just as real and very much ongoing, with novel Euro-American ways of thinking and being steamrolling and homogenising everything in their path. As one author put it, 'American-style depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and anorexia have begun to spread around the world like contagions, and the virus is us'.

Bur seriously, just how many South Sudanese young women do you reckon are walking around with undiagnosed cases of anorexia?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not so. Part of my master's program in history in the US included studying dozens of such historical accounts. Historians have been onto this phenomenon for a very long time, and now psychology is finally catching up, grudgingly acknowledging that most research has been conducted (and still is) in WEIRD societies, and that such societies are actually on the extreme (fringe) of human experience, especially when viewed from within the global historical context. In many cases, psychological studies conducted in America simply do not work in other populations, contributing to what has been called psychology's 'replication crisis'.

We are accustomed to analysing the more outward impacts of Western colonialism, but the colonisation of the mind is just as real and very much ongoing, with novel Euro-American ways of thinking and being steamrolling and homogenising everything in their path. As one author put it, 'American-style depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and anorexia have begun to spread around the world like contagions, and the virus is us'.

Bur seriously, just how many South Sudanese young women do you reckon are walking around with undiagnosed cases of anorexia?

The replication crisis is a pervasive problem. It is not specific to psychology.

[David Waltz]

Hello Islander,

You wrote:

>>Slow down and read my post. I said: " "They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism" meaning, when they understand, accept and embrace the faith. But they were BORN there. They are not true "converts".>>

Your original post only included, “They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism.”

Without the added information included in your last post, I read your original sentence as saying that the children of newly baptized congregant members were also counted as new members.

Your original sentence said nothing about whether or not the children of congregant parents when baptized are “true ‘converts’.”

You also wrote:

>>They do NOT drop people from the membership after three month. No church in America does that. My brother in-law is a more or less "inactive member"  and has been for years, but a member nevertheless.>>

Folk in your “inactive member” classification are NOT counted as Jehovah’s Witnesses by the WTBTS. Note the following:

“We count as Jehovah’s Witnesses only those who are actively preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom each month. (Matthew 24:14) This includes those who have been baptized as Witnesses as well as those who, though not yet baptized, qualify to share in the preaching work.” [How Many Jehovah’s Witnesses Are There Worldwide - LINK]

>>They may attend 2-3 times a year. They have not been dropped.>>

Once again, only those folk, “who are actively preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom each month”, are counted as Jehovah's Witnesses. [It seems that I have to adjust my 3 month inactive assessment/understanding.]

>>If one thing I know fairly well is mathematics and statistics, on account of my field of study. Comparing year-over-year their stats, it seems like nobody died, when you look at the total numbers by categories. A typical slide of hands when fudging numbers.>>

Interesting assessment. When I crunch the numbers provided by the WTBTS it shows thousands of loses, due to death, disfellowshipping, and inactivity.

>>In sum, I cited a well-known, published researcher as a good source of information. Feel free to disagree.>>

I will side with a different “published researcher”, Dr. James Penton, emeritus professor of history at the University of Lethbridge (Alberta, Canada).

 

Grace and peace,

David

[3DOP]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:45 PM, Islander said:

Slow down and read my post. I said: " "They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism" meaning, when they understand, accept and embrace the faith. But they were BORN there. They are not true "converts".

They do NOT drop people from the membership after three month. No church in America does that. My brother in-law is a more or less "inactive member"  and has been for years, but a member nevertheless. They may attend 2-3 times a year. They have not been dropped. If one thing I know fairly well is mathematics and statistics, on account of my field of study. Comparing year-over-year their stats, it seems like nobody died, when you look at the total numbers by categories. A typical slide of hands when fudging numbers.

In sum, I cited a well-known, published researcher as a good source of information. Feel free to disagree.

Best of luck

Thanks, I do feel very free to disagree.

You have a brother-in-law that goes to the Kingdom Hall once or twice a year, and have spoken to him? Oh wow. Forgive us for doubting that he has some kind of secret information on Jehovah's Witnesses cheating their numbers.  

But besides that "expertise" on the subject, you know math (!), and therefore are suspicious of a "typical slide of hands".

There are probably a lot of reasons for why you should not be a Jehovah's Witness. I hope you can find one that doesn't accuse them of "hand sliding" and whatever else your brother-in-law who doesn't go to the Kingdom Hall tells you. 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:18 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I haven’t lived in Indonesia since 1997. I’m not sure what you’re reporting, but freedom of religious choice is guaranteed in the Indonesian Constitution.* Most Church members when I lived there were former Muslims, followed by former Buddhists (ethnic Chinese).

Regarding conversions here, our most recent convert was an atheist. Of the two people we’ve had in our home to meet with missionaries this week (one twice), one was raised JW but stopped affiliating 10 years ago, and the other is a Muslim whose father is an inactive Saint. 

-----

ETA: *I've had time tonight to try to find out more. I'm still not certain, but this site claims that the amendment 'criminalizes any person who intends to change another’s religion or become irreligious by means of public incitement or threats', ostensibly to protect against forced conversions.

I've tried to find the actual amendments online so that I can read them for myself, but no luck so far.

Hi,

Sorry -- for some reason I thought you were living in Indonesia, so I was looking for first-hand accounts of how the new law would affect proselytization (it was just passed a couple of days ago). The law looks broad enough that someone could use it against missionaries of any faith.

Most people are focusing on the anti-sex portions of the law, so it's harder to come by quick information on the apostasy/blasphemy parts.

This is from Human Rights Watch:

Quote

Anyone who attempts to persuade a person to be a non-believer in a religion or belief can be prosecuted and jailed, a serious setback to protecting freedom of religion and belief in Indonesia.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is from Human Rights Watch:

Yeah, I saw that. I’d really like to read the language for myself. 

[2BizE]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:17 AM, Navidad said:

 

I would like to answer both of these at once with a kind, firm, yet resounding yes to your two questions. There have been, and are today millions of non-LDS Christians in the world who fervently, sincerely, and  passionately believe they are led by authoritative apostles and prophets. Such groups have existed for millennia, most likely continuously since the early church.

If we include those who claim authority under continuous apostolic and prophetic authority, those numbers go into the billions. The LDS church is but one of many who claim "authoritative priesthood offices" in their hierarchy and leadership. Let me repeat that - one of many! Certainly you must be aware of that. You don't have to agree that they have authoritative leadership any more than they agree that you do. But agreeing or not, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they exist and have existed with as deep a commitment to their faith as you have to yours or I have to mine.

We have been talking about conversions and rapidly growing groups. Certainly among the fasting growing Christian groups in the world today are the basically independent or loosely affiliated folks who align with various New Apostolic Reformation movements - those whose faith is founded on continual revelation direct from God through his apostles and prophets on the earth today. I have a Oneness friend who just returned home from the huge Oneness convention in LA. USC has a study center to research such movements and their growth, just as ASU has to study religion and conflict.

Here in Mexico, the idea of being "under the spiritual covering" of such apostles and prophets is widespread. It has been estimated that such independent movements today collectively form the second largest Christian community (to Catholics) in the world. Many of these groups do not only claim Eph 4:11, but also the restoration of all spiritual gifts as well. Some of them, like some of you claim exclusivity in onlyness as well as in oneness. This ignores the millions and millions of faithful and observant others who do and have in the past made such claims with equal fervor and commitment.

Way back in I Kings, Elijah, at the mouth of a cave complained that he was the only prophet left truly serving God (19:10). Several verses later, God reminded him that he had 7,000 faithful still left in Israel. God has many many many faithful left in the world, both in and outside any one particular organization. Some hold tightly to a belief in modern day prophets and apostles, complete with authority. Others believe differently about such hierarchical leadership in today's church. It is not for me to even attempt to say who is right and who is wrong. I just don't think anyone is the only, anymore than was Elijah when in the cave or under the broom tree.

I wish my LDS friends would get to know more of those in other Apostolic movements. I wish my Apostolic friends would get to know more of those in the LDS restorational movement. I think then all would be surprised how many there are who bend the knee to the Savior in spirit, truth, and with authority.

Thank you Navidad for your wisdom. We Mormons often do not search for spiritual knowledge and wisdom outside of our bubble. Thank you for sharing that there are many Christian churches similarly organized to the LDS church but originated much earlier.  The LDS faith originated out of the 2nd enlightenment period with the influence of the Stone/Campbell restoration movement.  Both the JWs and Sabbath Day Adventist’s also originated out of this period and are both restorations of previous beliefs.  Data have shown over the years how these two churches are growing at a faster rate than the LDS church.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

We Mormons often do not search for spiritual knowledge and wisdom outside of our bubble.

'We Mormons'???

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, 2BizE said:

We Mormons [sic] often do not search for spiritual knowledge and wisdom outside of our bubble. ...

Certainly, I have absolutely no beef with Navidad, I respect him tremendously, and I value his presence here.  However, and on whatever subject, we may disagree, I say Vive le difference!  That said, I was under the impression that it is a fundamental tenet of the faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole."  Now, you may say that there is a difference between what we profess and how we act, but, still ...

[manol]

9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Certainly, I have absolutely no beef with Navidad, I respect him tremendously, and I value his presence here.  However, and on whatever subject, we may disagree, I say Vive le difference!  That said, I was under the impression that it is a fundamental tenet of the faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole."  Now, you may say that there is a difference between what we profess and how we act, but, still ...

You sir are starting to sound like a true Mormon.

“We should gather all the good and true principles of the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.” - Joseph Smith

Edited December 12, 2022 by manol

[Hamba Tuhan]

39 minutes ago, manol said:

“We should gather all the good and true principles of the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.” - Joseph Smith

This is a principle I have been taught consistently within the Church.

[RevTestament]

On 12/4/2022 at 12:14 PM, gav said:

I don't think any "ark steadying" is advisable just yet... or ever, we know where that ends. 

Where? With the translation/resurrection of the Church?

[RevTestament]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:57 PM, Navidad said:

I think apocalyptic prophecy can be best evaluated in its historical setting and with less and less certainty as it relates to "end times." What we think of as prophecy is often modern minds interpreting Scripture in light of intervening history. For example in Daniel 2, we see the statue with its kingdoms. The kingdoms are not identified in the text (except for that of Nebuchadnezzar (the first) - especially the last one. The kingdoms were much later identified by scholars or interested interpreters looking back on the important kingdoms subsequent to the Babylonians (Medes Persians, Romans, Greeks) after the fact. That isn't prophecy, it is looking back on history and identifying  kingdoms based on their historical significance.

The kingdom identified as the one lasting forever has never been identified with any certainty. In fact, the precursors to the Anabaptists who were the precursors to the Amish, Brethren, Mennonites and German Baptists and the original Restorationists were the Zwickau Prophets of the late 15th century who sought to establish their own Zion as the final of the Daniel 2 kingdoms. They were millennarians, who as have many other groups sought to identify a home (a gathering place) from millennial prophecy (not history). We now look back on the futility of all that.

The statements you bolded from Daniel 12 most likely refer to the time of the actual captivity of the Jews. Of course again, that interpretation comes from an understanding of that captivity as history, not prophecy, especially when looked at from the perspective of the Essenes and other similar communities of around the time of Christ who have offered us their own interpretations.

Trying to attach dates, times, places and events to Biblical prophetic literature has never been anything less than a challenge. I clearly remember my father sitting in our car all day on June 6 or 7, 1967 (I forget the exact date) as he was sure that the Arab-Israeli war and the great northeast blackout were connected with Biblical prophecies in Ezekiel of God, Magog, and Armageddon. The only working radio was in the car. My dad was a huge fan of 1940s-1960s Fundamentalist Pre-Millennial - Pre-Trib rapture doctrines. He was certain, based on Ezekiel that chaos had to come to the Middle East prior to end-time events. My dad is now long gone. Here it is sixty years later. While I believe there is no harm in speculation, it is also my belief that we can have nothing more than provisional certitude about any of this. That is enough for me. Best wishes, and take care.

"The kingdom identified as the one lasting forever has never been identified with any certainty." My Church has adopted their own view on this, but you will note that it comes in a day after the steel legs - of course the Roman Empire was split in two basically at the time of Constantine - ie the two legs. Then the toes fit nicely into the 10 kingdoms that conquered the western half of the empire, and became the modern European nations. Many of them are still around in their original form: the Visigoths of Spain, the Suevi of Portugal, the Franks of France, the Saxons of England, the Bergundians of Bergundy, etc. This of course leads to the conclusion that this kingdom came after the early Church. I don't view it as an earthly Church, however, because no earthly Church is going to last forever. For me it is a heavenly kingdom made without hands.  Daniel 12 actually takes us to these days, and not the time of Christ, because Daniel 11 has been misinterpreted so as to try to force that conclusion - which of course makes the vision fail. Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, and one, which you note, has been interpreted many times in different ways, however it is not futile to seek after understanding if God has revealed things once sealed.

On 12/6/2022 at 6:48 PM, Navidad said:

And perchance the LDS folks don't realize that this (restoration) has already happened in the late 15th and early 16th century!

Do the Anabaptist  sects have a view towards Rev 12 where the Church is forced into the wilderness for 1260 days, or 42 months, or a time, times and a half? You may have noted that 42 x 30 = 1260, and a time, times and a half is a preservation of the Hebrew timing of things preserved from Daniel 7, and means 3.5 years or 42 months?

On 12/7/2022 at 9:17 AM, Navidad said:

I wish my LDS friends would get to know more of those in other Apostolic movements. I wish my Apostolic friends would get to know more of those in the LDS restorational movement. I think then all would be surprised how many there are who bend the knee to the Savior in spirit, truth, and with authority.

There are not a lot of spirits who have a true taste of curiosity, and willingness to search after truth. I find you to be one of those. I share your desire, but in actuality most are quite closed minded. Despite my own church's tenet taken after Paul to search after truth found at the end of the last article of faith: "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things," I myself am sometimes ambivalent about encouraging people to search for truth, because I think many people are not grounded enough, and get led astray. Nevertheless, that is the only way to find truth, and Joseph Smith himself encouraged it - although with a mind towards seeking it through God. I think that is the secret, because men are lost, and are constantly falling away. Nevertheless, there will come a day when the Church will stop schisming, and there will only be one Church, but it is some centuries away. 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

"The kingdom identified as the one lasting forever has never been identified with any certainty." My Church has adopted their own view on this, but you will note that it comes in a day after the steel legs - of course the Roman Empire was split in two basically at the time of Constantine - ie the two legs. Then the toes fit nicely into the 10 kingdoms that conquered the western half of the empire, and became the modern European nations. Many of them are still around in their original form: the Visigoths of Spain, the Suevi of Portugal, the Franks of France, the Saxons of England, the Bergundians of Bergundy, etc. This of course leads to the conclusion that this kingdom came after the early Church. I don't view it as an earthly Church, however, because no earthly Church is going to last forever. For me it is a heavenly kingdom made without hands.  Daniel 12 actually takes us to these days, and not the time of Christ, because Daniel 11 has been misinterpreted so as to try to force that conclusion - which of course makes the vision fail. Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, and one, which you note, has been interpreted many times in different ways, however it is not futile to seek after understanding if God has revealed things once sealed.

Do the Anabaptist  sects have a view towards Rev 12 where the Church is forced into the wilderness for 1260 days, or 42 months, or a time, times and a half? You may have noted that 42 x 30 = 1260, and a time, times and a half is a preservation of the Hebrew timing of things preserved from Daniel 7, and means 3.5 years or 42 months?

There are not a lot of spirits who have a true taste of curiosity, and willingness to search after truth. I find you to be one of those. I share your desire, but in actuality most are quite closed minded. Despite my own church's tenet taken after Paul to search after truth found at the end of the last article of faith: "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things," I myself am sometimes ambivalent about encouraging people to search for truth, because I think many people are not grounded enough, and get led astray. Nevertheless, that is the only way to find truth, and Joseph Smith himself encouraged it - although with a mind towards seeking it through God. I think that is the secret, because men are lost, and are constantly falling away. Nevertheless, there will come a day when the Church will stop schisming, and there will only be one Church, but it is some centuries away. 

As always, thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. Your interpretation of the statue in Daniel is certainly a viable possibility. It is however an interpretation of a dream had by a King who certainly had his ups and downs. Interpreting his dream as a prophecy from God about future churches and kingdoms is itself highly speculative. It has often been interpreted that way, and often in other ways as well. I am not a numerologist; nor do I attach any meaning at all to Biblical numerology -not prophetic, not salvific, nor as indication of any ecclesiology. You could just as easily add up to the numbers, as the Essenes did to correlate them to the captivity of the Jews or the Second Temple period, or, or, or or! To answer your question more directly yes, there were early Anabaptists who did their best to interpret numbers - a discipline that has become known as numerology. Many Fundamentalists in the 1940s and 1950s did the same thing. I don't know of as many groups who do so today, but there are certainly numerical literalists out there.

I believe it is very important for folks to be both grounded and incessantly curious, and inevitably uncertain. I do believe in the one Church, founded by Christ and continuing to exist today, and long into the future. It is the worldwide church of Christ, composed of those who in the OT sense, are those called by His name who have humbled themselves and turned from their wicked ways. In the NT sense it is those who have repented and subjected themselves to a belief in the atonement which started its NT phase in the incarnation, and continued via the creation of the ekklesia - the called out ones forming the true church, regardless of schisming - as you so appropriate call it.

Of course the true church of today will not be the true church of eternity, since that church is composed of all who will ultimately understand that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father except by Him at the day of final judgment. Those who pass that test, the questions and means of passing being beyond us right now, will form the ultimate forever and eternal Church of Christ, which will have no correlation to any mortal, OT or New Testament period group or institution.

All of those related to the "church" age will be long gone by then. After the day of judgment the prophecy that "the perfect" (complete) will come and the partial will be done away with will finally come true. No current existing institution, organization, or ordinance is more than a foreshadowing of that "perfect" - the eternal forever church of Jesus Christ presided over by the Godhead - however we will know it to be at that time. We know so much and so very little right now. We know enough to think we might have it figured out. We know so little that we have to simply rely on provision certitude to get us through to all that is yet before us to know . . .  when the perfect or complete has come. Take care my friend. You are a good person! I appreciate you a lot.