Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses Are Converting More Than The LDS

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 12/4/2022 at 11:43 AM, Peppermint Patty said:

“Trends point to continued underperformance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints compared to its competitors.”

I had to chuckle that the author figures our only "competitors" for converts are JWs and Adventists.

How about a more accurate statement?  "Trends point to continued suckitude of Christianity's efforts to stop shrinking, with only JWs, Adventists, and LDS actually gaining members."

Gee, I wonder what we're DOING RIGHT so that we continue to gain members in a world full of folks abandoning faith?

Edited December 6, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, gav said:

Thanks for this.

Do you think apocalyptic prophecy can only be evaluated in its historical setting and has nothing to say about the future? or is there something there for the future and for future generations?

What do you make of statements like the ones bolded below?

 

I think apocalyptic prophecy can be best evaluated in its historical setting and with less and less certainty as it relates to "end times." What we think of as prophecy is often modern minds interpreting Scripture in light of intervening history. For example in Daniel 2, we see the statue with its kingdoms. The kingdoms are not identified in the text (except for that of Nebuchadnezzar (the first) - especially the last one. The kingdoms were much later identified by scholars or interested interpreters looking back on the important kingdoms subsequent to the Babylonians (Medes Persians, Romans, Greeks) after the fact. That isn't prophecy, it is looking back on history and identifying  kingdoms based on their historical significance.

The kingdom identified as the one lasting forever has never been identified with any certainty. In fact, the precursors to the Anabaptists who were the precursors to the Amish, Brethren, Mennonites and German Baptists and the original Restorationists were the Zwickau Prophets of the late 15th century who sought to establish their own Zion as the final of the Daniel 2 kingdoms. They were millennarians, who as have many other groups sought to identify a home (a gathering place) from millennial prophecy (not history). We now look back on the futility of all that.

The statements you bolded from Daniel 12 most likely refer to the time of the actual captivity of the Jews. Of course again, that interpretation comes from an understanding of that captivity as history, not prophecy, especially when looked at from the perspective of the Essenes and other similar communities of around the time of Christ who have offered us their own interpretations.

Trying to attach dates, times, places and events to Biblical prophetic literature has never been anything less than a challenge. I clearly remember my father sitting in our car all day on June 6 or 7, 1967 (I forget the exact date) as he was sure that the Arab-Israeli war and the great northeast blackout were connected with Biblical prophecies in Ezekiel of God, Magog, and Armageddon. The only working radio was in the car. My dad was a huge fan of 1940s-1960s Fundamentalist Pre-Millennial - Pre-Trib rapture doctrines. He was certain, based on Ezekiel that chaos had to come to the Middle East prior to end-time events. My dad is now long gone. Here it is sixty years later. While I believe there is no harm in speculation, it is also my belief that we can have nothing more than provisional certitude about any of this. That is enough for me. Best wishes, and take care.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I had to chuckle that the author figures our only "competitors" for converts are JWs and Adventists.

How about a more accurate statement?  "Trends point to continued suckitude of Christianity's efforts to stop shrinking, with only JWs, Adventists, and LDS actually gaining members."

Gee, I wonder what we're DOING RIGHT so that we continue to gain members in a world full of folks abandoning faith?

Don't forget the growth of the Amish! Their birthrate and retention rates are extraordinarily high! Add huge upticks in non-Anglo conversions and we have some amazing growth numbers, especially among non-Anglo Anabaptists. Oh, and don't forget Pentecostals! Wow!

[Kenngo1969]

It isn't going to be easy, but, in the end, we know who wins.  (I'm not calling out anyone from any other religious tradition here: See my previous post.  We invite them to join with us, whether, in doing so, they follow the path as laid out by latter-day prophets or another, similar path to which they feel called.)  Surely, we're all familiar with this bit from Joseph Smith's letter to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat :

Quote

The Standard of Truth has been erected.  No unhallowed hand can stop this work from progressing.  Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, and calumny may defame.  But the Truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, 'til it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear.  'Til the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say, 'The work is done!'"

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, Amulek said:

I suspect Jews feel somewhat the same way about those who interpret the Old Testament as having specific reference to Jesus of Nazareth.

 

As they should.  It seems Christians read Jesus back into the OT erroneously.

[teddyaware]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

As they should.  It seems Christians read Jesus back into the OT erroneously.

Once again the Book of Mormon serves one of it’s main purposes, riding to the rescue to contradict the false perceptions of uninspired men and their erroneous, unscriptural ideas: 

4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also ALL THE HOLY PROPHETS which were before us?

5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, WHICH IS A SIMILITUDE OF GOD AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. (Jacob 4)

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Don't forget the growth of the Amish! Their birthrate and retention rates are extraordinarily high! Add huge upticks in non-Anglo conversions and we have some amazing growth numbers, especially among non-Anglo Anabaptists. Oh, and don't forget Pentecostals! Wow!

There's a relatively new movement within Pentecostalism that seems to be trying to mimic what was already done with the restoration in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  From the Wikipedia article on the New Apostolic Reformation movement:

Quote

The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a movement which seeks to establish a fifth branch within Christendom distinct from Catholicism, Protestantism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy. The movement largely consists of churches nominally or formerly associated with Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic movements but have diverged from traditional Pentecostal and Charismatic theology in that it advocates for the restoration of the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle.

This would actually be a "sixth branch" within Christendom, because the Latter-day Saints have already taken the "restoration" branch  

And apparently they don't realize that this has already happened.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Danzo said:

I guess for some people membership in the Jehovah's Witnesses can be a stepping stone to finding truth. 

I've seen this on many occasions. The last woman I taught as a missionary was a lapsed JW. We were actually working with her flatmate, who was a less-active member, but when she heard what we were teaching, she was excited. She was baptised the Sunday after I arrived home.

When I was studying in America after my mission, the Elders one day met a young woman on the street, and she invited them home. They didn't know then, but she did this to annoy her JW mum. The mum wisely sat in on the first lesson to hear what her daughter was being told and quickly became an investigator herself, then a stalwart member. (This annoyed the daughter so much that she moved out! )

One of my housemates had his mate around last night for dinner and to meet the missionaries for the first time. He was also raised by JW parents, though he stopped attending ten years ago. His solution has been to worship privately, as he explained it, but after our discussion last night, he said he's now willing to explore another church. Good stuff!

By the way, this was the second time this week that we had someone in our home to meet the missionaries. Monday I had a less-active brother come with his non-member (Muslim) daughter. She was super-keen to get the Book of Mormon and asked to meet again to discuss it. That'll happen on Friday. And another mate of mine, who's had all the lessons but still hasn't experienced conversion yet, agreed to meet with the Elders this Sunday. Two weeks ago, they invited him to resume daily prayer, and he's actually done it, which is great.

So yeah, whether or not the work goes forward is really just a choice we individually get to make. We are surrounded by voices telling us that the Church is in 'terminal decline'. Those voices are designed to discourage and/or distract us, thereby creating the desired decline. I don't for one second believe their message, and neither do the living prophets.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[David Waltz]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

I am not so sure about the reliability of the numbers as reported by the Watch Tower Society, for example in "Crisis of Allegiance": A Study of Dissent Among Jehovah's Witnesses by James Beverley - 2021, he paints a very bleak picture of the organization worldwide. He is a researcher and has studied this religious group for three decades. Lawsuits and criminal investigations in Australia and the UK as well as in US have thrown the organization into turmoil and significant scrutiny.  Anecdotally, here in Northern CO they have sold some buildings and consolidated several congregations into one building. We have relatives that are "inactive"  members. Covid shut down all their meeting halls and after the meetings resumed, nearly half of the congregants never came back, according to my relative. They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism

I am former JW (4th generation), and one thing I am quite sure of is the accuracy of statistical reporting by the WTBTS. Their statistics are meticulously compiled, and from my experience (which includes information from a personal friend of mine who worked at the HQ in NY for 4 years), I seriously doubt that they 'fudge' any of the numbers they provide each year. 

As for your statement that, "They do also include the children of the congregants as new members at baptism", this is not true, only those folk who are able to understand and make their assent to dozens of questions prior to baptism, and then are baptized, are counted as "new members". 

Further, only those baptized members who are actively engaged in the preaching work are counted as members. When I was a member, members who were inactive for 3 consecutive months were dropped from the active members list. 

 

Grace and peace,

David

Edited December 7, 2022 by David Waltz
typo

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

And apparently they don't realize that this has already happened.  

And perchance the LDS folks don't realize that this (restoration) has already happened in the late 15th and early 16th century!

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

And perchance the LDS folks don't realize that this (restoration) has already happened in the late 15th and early 16th century!

Complete with authoritative priesthood offices of prophet and apostle?

Edited December 7, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

And perchance the LDS folks don't realize that this (restoration) has already happened in the late 15th and early 16th century!

To quote a relevant part:

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

it advocates for the restoration of the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle.

Yeah (what Hamba Tuhan said), did any other group restore the "lost offices" of apostles and prophets, the original organization of Christ's church?  

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Complete with authoritative priesthood offices of prophet and apostle?

 

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

To quote a relevant part:

Yeah (what Hamba Tuhan said), did any other group restore the "lost offices" of apostles and prophets, the original organization of Christ's church?  

I would like to answer both of these at once with a kind, firm, yet resounding yes to your two questions. There have been, and are today millions of non-LDS Christians in the world who fervently, sincerely, and  passionately believe they are led by authoritative apostles and prophets. Such groups have existed for millennia, most likely continuously since the early church.

If we include those who claim authority under continuous apostolic and prophetic authority, those numbers go into the billions. The LDS church is but one of many who claim "authoritative priesthood offices" in their hierarchy and leadership. Let me repeat that - one of many! Certainly you must be aware of that. You don't have to agree that they have authoritative leadership any more than they agree that you do. But agreeing or not, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they exist and have existed with as deep a commitment to their faith as you have to yours or I have to mine.

We have been talking about conversions and rapidly growing groups. Certainly among the fasting growing Christian groups in the world today are the basically independent or loosely affiliated folks who align with various New Apostolic Reformation movements - those whose faith is founded on continual revelation direct from God through his apostles and prophets on the earth today. I have a Oneness friend who just returned home from the huge Oneness convention in LA. USC has a study center to research such movements and their growth, just as ASU has to study religion and conflict.

Here in Mexico, the idea of being "under the spiritual covering" of such apostles and prophets is widespread. It has been estimated that such independent movements today collectively form the second largest Christian community (to Catholics) in the world. Many of these groups do not only claim Eph 4:11, but also the restoration of all spiritual gifts as well. Some of them, like some of you claim exclusivity in onlyness as well as in oneness. This ignores the millions and millions of faithful and observant others who do and have in the past made such claims with equal fervor and commitment.

Way back in I Kings, Elijah, at the mouth of a cave complained that he was the only prophet left truly serving God (19:10). Several verses later, God reminded him that he had 7,000 faithful still left in Israel. God has many many many faithful left in the world, both in and outside any one particular organization. Some hold tightly to a belief in modern day prophets and apostles, complete with authority. Others believe differently about such hierarchical leadership in today's church. It is not for me to even attempt to say who is right and who is wrong. I just don't think anyone is the only, anymore than was Elijah when in the cave or under the broom tree.

I wish my LDS friends would get to know more of those in other Apostolic movements. I wish my Apostolic friends would get to know more of those in the LDS restorational movement. I think then all would be surprised how many there are who bend the knee to the Savior in spirit, truth, and with authority.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Navidad

[teddyaware]

49 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 

I would like to answer both of these at once with a kind, firm, yet resounding yes to your two questions. There have been, and are today millions of non-LDS Christians in the world who fervently, sincerely, and  passionately believe they are led by authoritative apostles and prophets. Such groups have existed for millennia, most likely continuously since the early church.

If we include those who claim authority under continuous apostolic and prophetic authority, those numbers go into the billions. The LDS church is but one of many who claim "authoritative priesthood offices" in their hierarchy and leadership. Let me repeat that - one of many! Certainly you must be aware of that. You don't have to agree that they have authoritative leadership any more than they agree that you do. But agreeing or not, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they exist and have existed with as deep a commitment to their faith as you have to yours or I have to mine.

We have been talking about conversions and rapidly growing groups. Certainly among the fasting growing Christian groups in the world today are the basically independent or loosely affiliated folks who align with various New Apostolic Reformation movements - those whose faith is founded on continual revelation direct from God through his apostles and prophets on the earth today. I have a Oneness friend who just returned home from the huge Oneness convention in LA. USC has a study center to research such movements and their growth, just as ASU has to study religion and conflict.

Here in Mexico, the idea of being "under the spiritual covering" of such apostles and prophets is widespread. It has been estimated that such independent movements today collectively form the second largest Christian community (to Catholics) in the world. Many of these groups do not only claim Eph 4:11, but also the restoration of all spiritual gifts as well. Some of them, like some of you claim exclusivity in onlyness as well as in oneness. This ignores the millions and millions of faithful and observant others who do and have in the past made such claims with equal fervor and commitment.

Way back in I Kings, Elijah, at the mouth of a cave complained that he was the only prophet left truly serving God (19:10). Several verses later, God reminded him that he had 7,000 faithful still left in Israel. God has many many many faithful left in the world, both in and outside any one particular organization. Some hold tightly to a belief in modern day prophets and apostles, complete with authority. Others believe differently about such hierarchical leadership in today's church. It is not for me to even attempt to say who is right and who is wrong. I just don't think anyone is the only, anymore than was Elijah when in the cave or under the broom tree.

I wish my LDS friends would get to know more of those in other Apostolic movements. I wish my Apostolic friends would get to know more of those in the LDS restorational movement. I think then all would be surprised how many there are who bend the knee to the Savior in spirit, truth, and with authority.

From a Latter-Day Saint perspective, the above response is terribly naive and utterly lacking in any substantiation. Please identify some of these apostles by name, and after doing so please explain how and from whom they gained their apostolic authority? 

What you appear to be saying is whenever anyone claims to be an apostle we must accept that their claims to the apostleship are legitimate and real. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul makes it very clear that just because someone claims to be an apostle doesn’t automatically mean that he is a true apostle.

12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Corinthians 11, New International Translation)

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Once again the Book of Mormon serves one of it’s main purposes, riding to the rescue to contradict the false perceptions of uninspired men and their erroneous, unscriptural ideas: 

4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also ALL THE HOLY PROPHETS which were before us?

5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, WHICH IS A SIMILITUDE OF GOD AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. (Jacob 4)

And it seems that you have blinders on to the fat the the BoM reads things into its text as well.  This really does not help.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

From a Latter-Day Saint perspective, the above response is terribly naive and utterly lacking in any substantiation. Please identify some of these apostles by name, and after doing so please explain how and from whom they gained their apostolic authority? 

What you appear to be saying is whenever anyone claims to be an apostle we must accept that their claims to the apostleship are legitimate and real. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul makes it very clear that just because someone claims to be an apostle doesn’t automatically mean that he is a true apostle.

12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Corinthians 11, New International Translation)

I never said, in fact I said the opposite of "whenever anyone claims to be an apostle we must accept that their claims to the apostleship are legitimate and real." You are putting words in my keyboard. In point of fact I said that you may not agree with their claims, but that does not mean that such claims have not made, and are still not being made over millennia. How do we discern the truth of such claims? Paul doesn't help us with that, does he? In fact even in the NT there are competing claims, are there not? Most were indeed apostles, some were not.

As for me, I see no more reason to accept or reject the claims of others than I do those of the LDS . . . of course I do not speak "from a Latter-day Saint perspective." Nor do I speak from a oneness or an apostolic perspective. I speak from my own perspective, nothing more or less. Paul makes it very clear that those who claim to be an apostle may or may not in fact be a true apostle. According to the verses you quoted, some are false, some are true. Right? Paul did say that God did give "some" to be apostles and prophets, right? In I Thess 5: 19-21, Paul called in fact for discernment, a careful examination of spiritual claims. He admonished his followers not put out the Spirit's fire and to hold on to that which is good. These and the verses you quote require a careful examination and discernment about Spiritual claims. I believe the same is true for today.

What I do reject, as I am sure you know by now is that there are "onlys" who speak for God. I would be greatly skeptical of any prophet's claim to be the only, whether LDS, oneness, apostolic, Catholic, Lutheran, Peter, Paul, Silas, Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Andronicus, Junius (outstanding among the apostles), etc.. The word apostle means to be a "messenger" for God. Certainly God has had many messengers who have spoken for Him over the centuries - Many! These including many NT prophets - those who exercised the gift of prophecy. On top of the apostles and prophets were many teachers and overseers in local groups. Take care.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Ambrosia said:

If you are already aware of this fact, please signify by saying Yes, you understand this.  You may desire for all of us to also accept everyone who believes he or she is a Christian as a prophet and apostle, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.  We don't even believe other Christians on Earth in other churches have been ordained to an office with divine priesthood authority, 

Yes, I understand what you are saying. However I do not, as I just wrote suggest nor desire for "all of us to also accept everyone who believes he or she is a Christian as a prophet and apostle." I never said that, nor do I believe that.

What I am saying is that there are many many many claims by those who claim apostleship and prophet status - both inside and outside the LDS Church. I believe that Paul teaches that such claims require great discernment, wisdom, and judgment as to their veracity. I make claims to being an approved pastor and teacher, in no way a prophet or apostle. I also understand that you don't even accept my pastor and teacher status, nor allow me to exercise those gifts in your midst. Oh well! I am over that.

I am indeed agnostic as to the presence of apostles and prophets (in the OT sense) in today's Christianity. I however, also take Paul's admonitions in I Thess 5: 19-21 very seriously. Therefore I am extremely reticent to quench the Spirit's fire. I want to hold on to what is good! I acknowledge the difficulty of determining what is "good!"

[boblloyd91]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

I would like to answer both of these at once with a kind, firm, yet resounding yes to your two questions. There have been, and are today millions of non-LDS Christians in the world who fervently, sincerely, and  passionately believe they are led by authoritative apostles and prophets. Such groups have existed for millennia, most likely continuously since the early church.

If we include those who claim authority under continuous apostolic and prophetic authority, those numbers go into the billions. The LDS church is but one of many who claim "authoritative priesthood offices" in their hierarchy and leadership. Let me repeat that - one of many! Certainly you must be aware of that. You don't have to agree that they have authoritative leadership any more than they agree that you do. But agreeing or not, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they exist and have existed with as deep a commitment to their faith as you have to yours or I have to mine.

We have been talking about conversions and rapidly growing groups. Certainly among the fasting growing Christian groups in the world today are the basically independent or loosely affiliated folks who align with various New Apostolic Reformation movements - those whose faith is founded on continual revelation direct from God through his apostles and prophets on the earth today. I have a Oneness friend who just returned home from the huge Oneness convention in LA. USC has a study center to research such movements and their growth, just as ASU has to study religion and conflict.

Here in Mexico, the idea of being "under the spiritual covering" of such apostles and prophets is widespread. It has been estimated that such independent movements today collectively form the second largest Christian community (to Catholics) in the world. Many of these groups do not only claim Eph 4:11, but also the restoration of all spiritual gifts as well. Some of them, like some of you claim exclusivity in onlyness as well as in oneness. This ignores the millions and millions of faithful and observant others who do and have in the past made such claims with equal fervor and commitment.

Way back in I Kings, Elijah, at the mouth of a cave complained that he was the only prophet left truly serving God (19:10). Several verses later, God reminded him that he had 7,000 faithful still left in Israel. God has many many many faithful left in the world, both in and outside any one particular organization. Some hold tightly to a belief in modern day prophets and apostles, complete with authority. Others believe differently about such hierarchical leadership in today's church. It is not for me to even attempt to say who is right and who is wrong. I just don't think anyone is the only, anymore than was Elijah when in the cave or under the broom tree.

I wish my LDS friends would get to know more of those in other Apostolic movements. I wish my Apostolic friends would get to know more of those in the LDS restorational movement. I think then all would be surprised how many there are who bend the knee to the Savior in spirit, truth, and with authority.

I've read quite a bit about the New Apostolic movement around 2012. They are definitely interesting. As a Latter Day Saint, I was disturbed to read about their views on my faith, claiming it was demonic. However in real practice things are a bit more murky as some high profile leaders of this movement are close friends of Glenn Beck (Lance Wallnau is one that comes to mind). They also were supportive of Mitt Romney's campaign. I know that many of them prophesied that Trump would win in 2020, which obviously never happened. I think you bring up a fair point that we need to look beyond what's going on beyond our denominational community and see what else is going on.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

I've read quite a bit about the New Apostolic movement around 2012. They are definitely interesting. As a Latter Day Saint, I was disturbed to read about their views on my faith, claiming it was demonic. However in real practice things are a bit more murky as some high profile leaders of this movement are close friends of Glenn Beck (Lance Wallnau is one that comes to mind). They also were supportive of Mitt Romney's campaign. I know that many of them prophesied that Trump would win in 2020, which obviously never happened. I think you bring up a fair point that we need to look beyond what's going on beyond our denominational community and see what else is going on.

Thanks and best wishes. The groups we are discussing are indeed complicated. There are some who classify them as Evangelicals, others who do not. In that sense they are also indeed complicated. They have been active politically, seeing certain current leaders in the same role as the Old Testament Pagan kings like Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus or Darius who were said to have been used by God for His purposes, even though they were not of His children. It is always good to learn about those who are not me. That expands my horizons and thinking. Take care.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Navidad

[Kenngo1969]

With regard to what, previously, I have posted in this thread, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I am of anything approaching an "eat-drink-and-be-merry" bent (see 2 Nephi 28:7) or that I am of anything approaching an "all-is-well-in-Zion-yea-Zion-prospereth-all-is-well" bent (see 2 Nephi 28:21).  Are there things we Latter-day Saints can, should, and must do better?  Undoubtedly.  But, in the end, it is G*D'S work.  He does not ask us to help him because He needs our help.  "I am able to do mine own work," He reminds us (see 2 Nephi 27:20).  He asks us to help Him, not because He needs our help, but because of what, in the process of "helping" Him, we become.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, Navidad said:

And perchance the LDS folks don't realize that this (restoration) has already happened in the late 15th and early 16th century!

Such a prospect would do irreparable violence to our foundational doctrine.  However, is there some possibility that the presence of Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon could have something to do with precursor events to the Restoration that took place during that time period?   

Hmmm ... 🤔

 

[Craig Speechly]

Honestly, given the level of hostility and criticism some fair and some unfair towards the church, it’s a miracle anyone converts to the church anymore. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Honestly, given the level of hostility and criticism some fair and some unfair towards the church, it’s a miracle anyone converts to the church anymore. 

This is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth ... or not.  Trust me, or not.  I don't care either way.  A few years ago I was perusing some titles written by the infamous Ed Decker at Amazon, reading the reviews.  A lot of 'em were the typical, predictable, "Atta boy, Ed!  Thanks fer tellin' the truth about them thar Mormons!"  But, mixed in with those, perhaps one every tenth or twentieth fawning review, there was a review that said, in essence, "I read one of your books and wondered if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members possibly could be as bad as you say they are.  I decided to find out for myself.  I started meeting with the missionaries and I'm getting baptized next week ..."

Of course, anyone can post anything on the Internet.  It's almost as if "www" doesn't stand for "world wide Web," but, rather, for "wacky, wild Web" or something.  Nonetheless, if even some of those accounts are true, I've often wondered how Mr. Decker feels to know that his work backfired.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Honestly, given the level of hostility and criticism some fair and some unfair towards the church, it’s a miracle anyone converts to the church anymore. 

The good news is that many people are willing to see for themselves. In that regard, we members are the best of all missionary 'tools'.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"I read one of your books and wondered if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members possibly could be as bad as you say they are.  I decided to find out for myself.  I started meeting with the missionaries and I'm getting baptized next week ..."

A family in one of the wards I served in had had a similar experience. Devout Evangelicals, they were devastated when they got news that her favourite aunt was about to be baptised into the Church, so they boarded an aeroplane to California to save her from this dreadful decision. They were well versed already in the usual criticisms, but the wife thought maybe she should actually look at the Book of Mormon to be prepared to convince the aunt of its falsity.

She read for the entire flight. When they landed in California, she said to her husband, 'I think we've been misled'. They started missionary lessons at the aunt's house, attended her baptism, and then completed the process once back on the Atlantic coast.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan