Sleeping With The Enemy

[mormonnewb]

My wife approached me today to announce that she was no longer worthy to enter the temple. The smart aleck in me wanted to say, "You're just figuring that out? Welcome to reality!" However, the person who doesn't want to go live his momma asked, "Why not?"

She told me that she was concerned with Question #7:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Given her (our) support for gay marriage on FB, she was convinced that she could have to answer this question in the affirmative. And, from a technical standpoint, she is correct. She agrees with a group ... whose ... practices are contrary to ... those accepted by the Church. But read in that light, aren't we all guilty of sleeping with the enemy so to speak? Don't we all support (patronize), affiliate with (work with), or agree with (vote for) individuals or groups whose practices are contrary to those espoused by the Chuch?

Given that, what do you think is really meant by the question? What are the types of groups with whom we should not be affiliate? Are we only talking about specifically anti-Mormon groups? Or are we also referring to ANY group that has an agenda in opposition to our own? And how much affiliation is too much? While I certainly couldn't be the President of the International Society of Mormon Haters (the dreaded ISMH), can I be someone who gives a monthly gift of $5 to the ACLU (or the Democratic Party for that matter)?

Seriously, how do you reframe this question to allow you to answer it in the negative?

Edited February 23, 2014 by mormonnewb

[thesometimesaint]

My mother was never in her life a member of the Church. NO ONE ever suggested that I don't love, honor, respect, support, and defend her. I'm not a violent person, but I would have been tempted to knock the first person whom said it on their butt.

[readstoomuch]

I think it ultimately is up to the person about what they think is the answer to the question. I have thought it specifically was about fundamentalist or offshoots of the church. I know being a Mason is not a reason to not have a temple recommend. I think if she gives her opinion about gay marriage, but doesn`t encourage others to leave the church or fight against it should be ok in her mind. Just as I respect her right to believe that, hopefully she wouldn`t try to influence those in the church who might disagree. Supporting gay marriage is different than saying that all mormon temples should be picketed until they perform gay sealings. My opinion.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My wife approached me today to announce that she was no longer worthy to enter the temple. The smart aleck in me wanted to say, "You're just figuring that out? Welcome to reality!" However, the person who doesn't want to go live his momma asked, "Why not?"

She told me that she was concerned with Question #7:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Given her (our) support for gay marriage on FB, she was convinced that she could have to answer this question in the affirmative. And, from a technical standpoint, she is correct. She agrees with a group ... whose ... practices are contrary to ... those accepted by the Church. But read in that light, aren't we all guilty of sleeping with the enemy so to speak? Don't we all support (patronize), affiliate with (work with), or agree with (vote for) individuals or groups whose practices are contrary to those espoused by the Chuch?

Given that, what do you think is really meant by the question? What are the types of groups with whom we should not be affiliate? Are we only talking about specifically anti-Mormon groups? Or are we also referring to ANY groups that has an agenda in diametric opposition to our own? And how much affiliation is too much? While I certainly couldn't be the President of the International Society of Mormon Haters (the dreaded ISMH), can I be someone who gives a monthly gift of $5 to the ACLU (or the Democratic Party for that matter)?

Seriously, how do you reframe this question to allow you to answer it in the negative?

I think you are getting the wrong idea with "groups who disagree with the Church", this or these do not mean groups who just disagree with our doctrines. These are groups who come out in open rebellion and seek for our destruction. My dear brother, seeing many of your threads leads me to believe that you misunderstand many of "yours and my" beliefs or that you think that disagreeing with many on the Internet is the same as disagreeing with the Church...they are not the same.

[Bob Crockett]

The question was inserted into the list to deal with the children of polygamists who wanted to receive endowments before moving on to plural marriage.

[theplains]

I think you are getting the wrong idea with "groups who disagree with the Church", this or these do not mean groups who just disagree with our doctrines. These are groups who come out in open rebellion and seek for our destruction. My dear brother, seeing many of your threads leads me to believe that you misunderstand many of "yours and my" beliefs or that you think that disagreeing with many on the Internet is the same as disagreeing with the Church...they are not the same.

 

The question is "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose

teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 

It is not specifically only about doctrines or only about non-Mormons who seek your destruction.

 

For example, going to the XYZ chain of hotels (where the owners are possibly Mormons who

support the Mormon Church with their tithes) would be a good example of supporting a group

whose practice of selling alcohol or pornography on their tv channels is contrary to the teachings

of the LDS Church.  Another example is if you go to the XYZ cinema chain every Sunday because

that is breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The question is "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose

teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 

It is not specifically only about doctrines or only about non-Mormons who seek your destruction.

 

For example, going to the XYZ chain of hotels (where the owners are possibly Mormons who

support the Mormon Church with their tithes) would be a good example of supporting a group

whose practice of selling alcohol or pornography on their tv channels is contrary to the teachings

of the LDS Church.  Another example is if you go to the XYZ cinema chain every Sunday because

that is breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

 

Regards,

Jim

No one, including any Bishop or Stake President would apply this to a cinema, Hotel or a grocery store. This is the kind of thing that makes me worry for the original poster. To the OP writer this is not so, nor would it be for ACLU, or your political ideas concerning Gay Marriage...this applies to aposate groups.

[CV75]

My wife approached me today to announce that she was no longer worthy to enter the temple. The smart aleck in me wanted to say, "You're just figuring that out? Welcome to reality!" However, the person who doesn't want to go live his momma asked, "Why not?"

She told me that she was concerned with Question #7:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Given her (our) support for gay marriage on FB, she was convinced that she could have to answer this question in the affirmative. And, from a technical standpoint, she is correct. She agrees with a group ... whose ... practices are contrary to ... those accepted by the Church. But read in that light, aren't we all guilty of sleeping with the enemy so to speak? Don't we all support (patronize), affiliate with (work with), or agree with (vote for) individuals or groups whose practices are contrary to those espoused by the Chuch?

Given that, what do you think is really meant by the question? What are the types of groups with whom we should not be affiliate? Are we only talking about specifically anti-Mormon groups? Or are we also referring to ANY group that has an agenda in opposition to our own? And how much affiliation is too much? While I certainly couldn't be the President of the International Society of Mormon Haters (the dreaded ISMH), can I be someone who gives a monthly gift of $5 to the ACLU (or the Democratic Party for that matter)?

Seriously, how do you reframe this question to allow you to answer it in the negative?

I take the question to help me honestly reflect on my own conscience and understanding (the same with the other questions). In this instance I reflect not only of the Church’s teachings and practices but those of the other groups to which I belong. If I were to ask for examples of groups I shouldn't belong to, I really don’t think the interviewer owes me any.

 

This is because I think the questions and answers are more spiritual than factual in nature, since we can’t possibly know all the facts, but we do have a covenant, a level and kind of spirituality, a level and kind of conscience and a level and kind of facility with the Gift of the Holy Ghost; and we are the ones who ultimately sign off on the recommend card as to the correctness of our answers.

 

So I don't re-frame the question, I just have to be honest with myself.

[The Nehor]

The question is "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose

teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 

It is not specifically only about doctrines or only about non-Mormons who seek your destruction.

 

For example, going to the XYZ chain of hotels (where the owners are possibly Mormons who

support the Mormon Church with their tithes) would be a good example of supporting a group

whose practice of selling alcohol or pornography on their tv channels is contrary to the teachings

of the LDS Church.  Another example is if you go to the XYZ cinema chain every Sunday because

that is breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

 

That is not what it means. The Church instructs its members to violate this commandment if taken as you mean it. A few weeks ago we were involved in a service project where we affiliated with Baptists, Methodists, and several other denominations. They believe many things contrary to church doctrine yet we affiliated with them.

 

It does not mean you have to vet every organization you interact with for doctrinal purity. Yesterday I went to an activity I found on Meetup. I felt no need to check the doctrinal views of everyone there lest I taint myself. The question is about supporting a group opposed to the church and its teachings in an active way or a perversion of the church. Belonging to a pro-polygamy group would fall under this heading. Belonging to the KKK would fall under it. Investing with an illegal drug cartel would qualify. Sending money to an anti-Mormon caricature of a think tank would qualify.

[emarkp]

Given her (our) support for gay marriage on FB, she was convinced that she could have to answer this question in the affirmative. And, from a technical standpoint, she is correct. She agrees with a group ... whose ... practices are contrary to ... those accepted by the Church.

If you oppose the doctrine and practice of the Church, why would you want a temple recommend?

[mormonnewb]

If you oppose the doctrine and practice of the Church, why would you want a temple recommend?

LOL!

[Senator]

The question was inserted into the list to deal with the children of polygamists who wanted to receive endowments before moving on to plural marriage.

CFR

 

Not trying to be annoying. It's Just that I've heard this before and would like to know its origination.

[mfbukowski]

Another case where we have to make our own decisions by the spirit.

 

If she feels she must say "yes" she must say yes.  If she doesn't, she doesn't.  The bottom line is what she feels the spirit is telling her to say, not what anyone else on earth has to say about it.

 

Don't worry about it is my advice.  Either you feel you believe in the church and deserve a recommend or you don't.  If you don't, you don't.  That is like asking a Democrat if he is actually a Republican.  We converts have changed churches before and can do so again, all believing that God wants us in the new church.  Trust the same spirit that brought you here in the first place.  You have to do what you think is right, and that's the end of the story.

 

Look at poor old "Adam and Eve".   "Is there any other way?"   There is no other way.

[Scott Lloyd]

The question is "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose

teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter-day Saints?

It is not specifically only about doctrines or only about non-Mormons who seek your destruction.

Bob Crockett is right. The question was included in response to apostate groups that practice polygamy and were endeavoring to gain individual admission to our temples without being worthy.

[Bob Crockett]

Bob Crockett is right. The question was included in response to apostate groups that practice polygamy and were endeavoring to gain individual admission to our temples without being worthy.

Well, technically, I think the person would have been worthy if that question had not been asked. The question originated around 1970 or so. At that time, polygamists were sending their sons on LDS missions and obtaining endowments and in some cases a first sealed marriage with the full intention of moving on from there. I believe that one or more of the missionaries serving in my mission met that description, but I was a naive kid from Seattle and not sure.

My only source of information for this is the explanation given my by stake president when I obtained my first recommend; it was apparently so recent at the time that it was common knowledge.

This nasty little article says it originated with the 1940 handbook.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Tacenda]

Well, technically, I think the person would have been worthy if that question had not been asked. The question originated around 1970 or so. At that time, polygamists were sending their sons on LDS missions and obtaining endowments and in some cases a first sealed marriage with the full intention of moving on from there. I believe that one or more of the missionaries serving in my mission met that description, but I was a naive kid from Seattle and not sure.

My only source of information for this is the explanation given my by stake president when I obtained my first recommend; it was apparently so recent at the time that it was common knowledge.

This nasty little article says it originated with the 1940 handbook.

The church reeked cultish behaviour back then.

[omni]

A close family member of mine was brought in to speak to the bishop because of a five word FB post in support of SSM. She was told by the bishop that if she continued to publicly support SSM she would face disciplinary action . When she asked for clarification he said disfellowship or excommunication and he used question seven as his justification.

[Tacenda]

A close family member of mine was brought in to speak to the bishop because of a five word FB post in support of SSM. She was told by the bishop that if she continued to publicly support SSM she would face disciplinary action . When she asked for clarification he said disfellowship or excommunication and he used question seven as his justification.

I can't believe this really happens!!! :(

[Robert F. Smith]

..............................................    

Given that, what do you think is really meant by the question? What are the types of groups with whom we should not be affiliate? Are we only talking about specifically anti-Mormon groups? Or are we also referring to ANY group that has an agenda in opposition to our own? And how much affiliation is too much? While I certainly couldn't be the President of the International Society of Mormon Haters (the dreaded ISMH), can I be someone who gives a monthly gift of $5 to the ACLU (or the Democratic Party for that matter)?

Seriously, how do you reframe this question to allow you to answer it in the negative?

Being a member of or contributor to an organization or individual which has as his/its purpose the destruction of the LDS Church probably fits into that category.

 

Since the Sierra Club and the Democratic Party are not in that category, membership is likely O.K.  Indeed, such stalwart Mormons as Hugh Nibley, Elder B. H. Roberts, President James Faust, and other of the Brethren have been very active in Democratic Party politics.  Also, the Brethren have strongly urged that LDS members actively participate in party politics, without any concern for which party.

 

As to the ACLU, its only purpose is to defend and extend the reach of the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution, a document which was inspired by God.  Efforts to extend equal rights to marriage for all (including LGBTs) is strongly in keeping with the LDS efforts in the past to defend plural marriage against claims that it was not "traditional."  Had the ACLU been founded several decades earlier, they might have argued the case for the Saints in the U.S. Supreme Court (Reynolds v. United States), a case which we lost due to bigotry.

 

So don't hesitate to pony up cash contributions in defense of the U.S. Constitution, and in defense of free agency in marriage styles.  One need not support any particular marriage style, only the principle of free agency in choosing which style one prefers.

[omni]

I can't believe this really happens!!! :(

Neither could she. She was bawling when she called me, it really shook her up.

[strappinglad]

What will we do with all the saints who live where SSM is the law. They must have a terrible time with Article of Faith 11. I would arrange a meeting with said bishop, the SP, and the Area President if necessary to clarify just where is the line to be drawn.

[Bob Crockett]

The church reeked cultish behaviour back then.

Certainly I disagree with that comment.   The Church has every right to withhold recommends from persons seeking to gain entry to the temple to become endowed so as to be able to enter into plural marriage.  Again, I maintain, that the original reason for that question was to achieve such a goal.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Tacenda]

Certainly I disagree with that comment. The Church has every right to withhold recommends from persons seeking to gain entry to the temple to become endowed so as to be able to enter into plural marriage. Again, I maintain, that the original reason for that question was to achieve such a goal.

I was talking about the article you linked. That day and age was terribly off in my estimation.

Apparently members were living under some form of religious tyranny back then, no free agency...nothing like what our church is now it would seem.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Tacenda

[EllenMaksoud]

My wife approached me today to announce that she was no longer worthy to enter the temple. The smart aleck in me wanted to say, "You're just figuring that out? Welcome to reality!" However, the person who doesn't want to go live his momma asked, "Why not?"

She told me that she was concerned with Question #7:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Given her (our) support for gay marriage on FB, she was convinced that she could have to answer this question in the affirmative. And, from a technical standpoint, she is correct. She agrees with a group ... whose ... practices are contrary to ... those accepted by the Church. But read in that light, aren't we all guilty of sleeping with the enemy so to speak? Don't we all support (patronize), affiliate with (work with), or agree with (vote for) individuals or groups whose practices are contrary to those espoused by the Chuch?

Given that, what do you think is really meant by the question? What are the types of groups with whom we should not be affiliate? Are we only talking about specifically anti-Mormon groups? Or are we also referring to ANY group that has an agenda in opposition to our own? And how much affiliation is too much? While I certainly couldn't be the President of the International Society of Mormon Haters (the dreaded ISMH), can I be someone who gives a monthly gift of $5 to the ACLU (or the Democratic Party for that matter)?

Seriously, how do you reframe this question to allow you to answer it in the negative?

There will be casualties along the way. You have to follow your conscience. While at this point I do not support gay marriage, one day I am convinced that science will find the so called gay gene or some other causation. It will probably be in 15 to 20 years and when that happens there will be major changes.

 

Of course, the scientific fact will need to be interpreted by a president with recent enough education exposure to understand the new results. Keep doing the right thing.

[readstoomuch]

The Church is certainly trying to learn to try and be more loving to gay people. See official church website. Her bishop is not coming after her anyway, she is choosing to answer the question the way her conscience leads her. I think many people who doubt have to answer the temple recommend questions the best they can. For example that they want to believe or have faith in the restoration of the gospel. This woman sounds like she is trying to do the right thing. I just want to show her my support and sympathy, even though I don`t personally believe in the status of marriage of LGBT folks. I believe in people who think about their membership in the church and try to do the best they can when faced with what are tough situations and choices. May God bless her in this decision.