The Atonement

[Stone holm]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

[Ahab]

The atonement is all about someone coming down here to do the will of our Father in heaven so we can know what that is like and follow that person's example so that we can do his will too and then return to our Father in heaven and live like he does.

 

It's all about living the best kind of life to be lived.

[mercyngrace]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

 

I can. 

 

But we lesser beings don't come off looking too good.

[bluebell]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

 

Maybe you could explain your version that makes HF look like that, because i have no idea what you are talking about.

[rongo]

Skousen's explanation centers the demands of justice around the uncreated intelligences that form the basis for everything. I'm sure you're aware of that one, right? Despite some people's irrational hatred of Cleon Skousen, its appeal is that it is the only explanation that explains the why and the how of the atonement, using Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP scriptures. I'm unaware of any other explanations (from GAs, or otherwise) that explain the how and why in a satisfactory way (in light of Joseph Smith's scriptural contributions).

 

Directly relevant to your OP, this explanation specifically begins by asking "Why did Jesus have to suffer like He did?"

[Stone holm]

Skousen's explanation centers the demands of justice around the uncreated intelligences that form the basis for everything. I'm sure you're aware of that one, right? Despite some people's irrational hatred of Cleon Skousen, its appeal is that it is the only explanation that explains the why and the how of the atonement, using Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP scriptures. I'm unaware of any other explanations (from GAs, or otherwise) that explain the how and why in a satisfactory way (in light of Joseph Smith's scriptural contributions).

 

Directly relevant to your OP, this explanation specifically begins by asking "Why did Jesus have to suffer like He did?"

Bingo! You know how few can go through the reasoning in the Church? Yes, the problem starts with the notion that HF actually made the rules of the game we call the Plan of Salvation. If HF made up the rules, who would make he rules require the bloody torture and killing of His own Son? And what would be the point of sacrificing Your Son just to make You feel better about your other Spirit Children? So there had to be an external reason, and the plan was a type of recipe developed over generations of gods. Christ said there was no greater act love than than to lay down ones life for another. But, HF already knew about the love that Christ was capable of so He could not have been the person that Christ was trying to convince. Skousen argued it was the intelligences of the universe that Christ had to convince. He also had to live a perfect life. Having lived a perfect life He was entitled to a fullness of joy, the purpose of His sacrifice was to prove to the intelligences of the universe that His joy would not be full without the companionship of His siblings. The purpose of our testing is to establish that we can be trusted to not abuse the authority which we will receive by reason of this Grace which He has bestowed upon us. The key to it all this is Christ's love. But, whether this reasoning is right or wrong, it is the depth of the thinking involved. Our members deserve to be taught more than just platitudes like " It was to fulfill the demands of justice" or "It was to carry out the Will of the Father" etc.

[The Nehor]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

 

The better question is how you can explain this world without making the Creator of it out as a sadist.

[Stone holm]

The better question is how you can explain this world without making the Creator of it out as a sadist.

Well in essence if anyone qualifies as such it is the intelligences, but they are at a very low level in their journey, for all we know whoever figured it out did so by accident. But according to Eliza Snow we will never be able to find the grand beginning so that will remain a perpetual mystery.

[daz2]

There are multiple models of the atonement in Christianity and within Mormon Christianity. In my opinion, the best overview is Loren Hansen's. https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V27N01_207.pdf Other treatments I like by Mormon philosophers include Sterling McMurrin's, Blake Ostler's, Gene England, and Jacob Morgan's. I personally subscribe to something like the moral influence description of the Atonement.

Edited December 28, 2013 by daz2

[Stone holm]

The problem as I see it, is that the Atonement is the single most important doctrine in the Church, yet most members cannot carry on a lucid discussion of the subject past a few "whys". I am not saying Skousens theories are correct or doctrinal, but at least he took a stab at it. And we should be having serious in depth discussions about doctrines of such import.

[The Nehor]

The problem as I see it, is that the Atonement is the single most important doctrine in the Church, yet most members cannot carry on a lucid discussion of the subject past a few "whys". I am not saying Skousens theories are correct or doctrinal, but at least he took a stab at it. And we should be having serious in depth discussions about doctrines of such import.

 

I am. Most of them are with God. There is more focus on applicability then theory but some theory is mixed in too.

 

It has been my experience that when two or more mortals sitting down and reason together on doctrines with little scriptural backing are more likely to go further from the truth rather then closer.

[Stone holm]

I am. Most of them are with God. There is more focus on applicability then theory but some theory is mixed in too.

 

It has been my experience that when two or more mortals sitting down and reason together on doctrines with little scriptural backing are more likely to go further from the truth rather then closer.

Possibly, but somehow I suspect that discussion can lead to prayers and prayers can lead to answers. Lack of discussion leads to people not thinking it out in their minds and not asking earnest questions. Heck they may not even know the questions to ask. Where would we be had Joseph not been continually in discussions that led to prayer? What if he had only been exposed to discussions that primarily encouraged naps most of his life?

[The Nehor]

What if he had only been exposed to discussions that primarily encouraged naps most of his life?

 

Then the Church would have fewer Sunday meetings and RESPECT my naptime. Not seeing a downside here.

[Stone holm]

Then the Church would have fewer Sunday meetings and RESPECT my naptime. Not seeing a downside here.

Lol...

[longview]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

 

STAGE ONE:

  The "Gods" visit with the "Intelligences" and invite them to become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

  The most intelligent of them, Jehovah, is given opportunity to become the Firstborn Spirit Child of Elohim and His Wife.

  Those that accept are endowed with greater abilities and knowledge and make great strides.

  They keep progressing until they "plateau" off.

 

STAGE TWO:

  Elohim convenes the Great Council in Heaven with all His Spirit Children present.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the extreme aspects and overwhelming violence and shocking chaos, the "Host of Heaven" requires Elohim to offer His Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

  Because the Plan requires "opposition", Lucifer unknowingly provides this oppositon by countering with his alternate plan and rebelling when not accepted and contnuing the war.

 

STAGE THREE:

  Experience of mortality (the Second Estate) with the Savior provided to make it possible.  Lucifer continues fighting because "misery loves company" and wants to get as many of them as possible to be in his chains.

 

STAGE FOUR:

  Death, return to God for Judgement.

 

STAGE FIVE:

  Exaltation of the few that "made it."

 

STAGE SIX:

  Repeat stages one through five ad infinitum.

[janderich]

Yes, Skousen moves the discussion from God being a sadist to God winning a popularity contest. I guess it's a step in the right direction... 

[JLHPROF]

STAGE ONE:

  The "Gods" visit with the "Intelligences" and invite them to become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

  The most intelligent of them, Jehovah, is given opportunity to become the Firstborn Spirit Child of Elohim and His Wife.

  Those that accept are endowed with greater abilities and knowledge and make great strides.

  They keep progressing until they "plateau" off.

 

STAGE TWO:

  Elohim convenes the Great Council in Heaven with all His Spirit Children present.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the extreme aspects and overwhelming violence and shocking chaos, the "Host of Heaven" requires Elohim to offer His Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

  Because the Plan requires "opposition", Lucifer unknowingly provides this oppositon by countering with his alternate plan and rebelling when not accepted and contnuing the war.

 

STAGE THREE:

  Experience of mortality (the Second Estate) with the Savior provided to make it possible.  Lucifer continues fighting because "misery loves company" and wants to get as many of them as possible to be in his chains.

 

STAGE FOUR:

  Death, return to God for Judgement.

 

STAGE FIVE:

  Exaltation of the few that "made it."

 

STAGE SIX:

  Repeat stages one through five ad infinitum.

 

I see quite a few errors with these stages, at least from my own personal doctrinal beliefs.  I would have written them like this:

 

STAGE ONE:

  The "Gods" provide spirit bodies for intelligences which become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

  The most intelligent of them, Jesus, is the Firstborn Spirit Child of Heavenly Father and one of His Wives.

  Those spirit children progress are endowed with greater abilities and knowledge and observe the creation and are taught.

  They keep progressing until the time comes for them to enter mortality.

 

STAGE TWO:

  Eloheim convenes the Great Council of the Gods and afterwards calls together the Spirit Children.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the fallen natures they would obtain they would be sinful and unable to return so eternal law required a sacrifice of mortal blood to pay for the sins.  Heavenly Father offers His sinless Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

  Because the Plan requires "opposition", Lucifer unknowingly provides this oppositon by countering with his alternate plan and rebelling when not accepted and contnuing the war.

 

STAGE THREE:

  Experience of mortality (the Second Estate) with the Savior provided to make it possible to return.  Lucifer continues fighting because "misery loves company" and wants to get as many of them as possible to be in his chains.

 

STAGE FOUR:

  Death, return to God for Judgement.

 

STAGE FIVE:

  Exaltation of the few that "made it" and provision of ministry to those who didn't in order that God's purposes to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man might not be thwarted eternally.

 

STAGE SIX:

  Repeat process by those who are exalted while striving for a Higher order of Kingdoms begins.

[Stone holm]

I see quite a few errors with these stages, at least from my own personal doctrinal beliefs.  I would have written them like this:

 

STAGE ONE:

  The "Gods" provide spirit bodies for intelligences which become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

  The most intelligent of them, Jesus, is the Firstborn Spirit Child of Heavenly Father and one of His Wives.

  Those spirit children progress are endowed with greater abilities and knowledge and observe the creation and are taught.

  They keep progressing until the time comes for them to enter mortality.

 

STAGE TWO:

  Eloheim convenes the Great Council of the Gods and afterwards calls together the Spirit Children.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the fallen natures they would obtain they would be sinful and unable to return so eternal law required a sacrifice of mortal blood to pay for the sins.  Heavenly Father offers His sinless Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

  Because the Plan requires "opposition", Lucifer unknowingly provides this oppositon by countering with his alternate plan and rebelling when not accepted and contnuing the war.

 

STAGE THREE:

  Experience of mortality (the Second Estate) with the Savior provided to make it possible to return.  Lucifer continues fighting because "misery loves company" and wants to get as many of them as possible to be in his chains.

 

STAGE FOUR:

  Death, return to God for Judgement.

 

STAGE FIVE:

  Exaltation of the few that "made it" and provision of ministry to those who didn't in order that God's purposes to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man might not be thwarted eternally.

 

STAGE SIX:

  Repeat process by those who are exalted while striving for a Higher order of Kingdoms begins.

Why the chaos and need for a plan?

[Alan]

My problem with understanding the atonement revolves around Christ taking upon himself our sins. If he took them then surely he has them. Although sinless himself he now has my sins, so surely he is no longer sinless? He suffered for them but does that erase them? If so, then anyone who fails to repent will do the same. They will suffer for the sins they carry until paid for. Surely then they will be sin free and heirs to the celestial kingdom just as Christ was?

[teddyaware]

Okay. Who can explain the Atonement without making Heavenly Father look like a sadist? No platitudes allowed.

Though I've announced I'm on a one month hiatus from posting on this board, I just had to chime in on this one.

 

Why don't you answer your own question for us Stone holm? I presume you are a testimony bearing member of the Church, and knowing you're a "progressive" thinker one would think you should be able to do a good job answering your own question. I say this based on the presumption you have a testimony that the atonement is real and absolutely necessary and that you surely don't believe God is a sadist (at least I hope you don't). So starting from the premise that He isn't a sadist, a smart guy like you should be well able to answer your own question. 

Edited December 28, 2013 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

My problem with understanding the atonement revolves around Christ taking upon himself our sins. If he took them then surely he has them. Although sinless himself he now has my sins, so surely he is no longer sinless? He suffered for them but does that erase them? If so, then anyone who fails to repent will do the same. They will suffer for the sins they carry until paid for. Surely then they will be sin free and heirs to the celestial kingdom just as Christ was?

 

No.  Christ took the effects of your sins and paid the price for those sins.  It did not make him sinful or actually guilty, it made him culpable.

And yes, his suffering for our sins DOES erase them in that the price has been paid and the transgression of that law is no longer an issue (D&C 58:42).

 

You are correct that those who refuse to repent will suffer for their sins (D&C 19:16-18).  After the price has been paid there will continue to be opportunities for them to progress but we are unsure exactly how far (D&C 76:88 & 112).

[pogi]

My problem with understanding the atonement revolves around Christ taking upon himself our sins. If he took them then surely he has them. Although sinless himself he now has my sins, so surely he is no longer sinless? 

 

Suffering for someones sin and being guilty of sin are two different things.  Sin is not some tangible object that one possesses or can transfer to another.  They don't really exist.  He suffered our pains and consequence of sin.

 

He suffered for them but does that erase them? If so, then anyone who fails to repent will do the same. They will suffer for the sins they carry until paid for. Surely then they will be sin free and heirs to the celestial kingdom just as Christ was?

 

It is not necessarily his suffering which erases sin.  His suffering appeased the demands of justice for the penitent only.  It is his mercy and grace which washes us clean.  He suffered for every man's sins, but only the penitent will receive the cleansing mercy.  This proves that it is not the suffering that erases sin, but the mercy and grace.  The penalty for sin is death, both spiritual and physical.  According to justice, there could be no end to this death without a savior.  The penalty is an eternal one, which is why we needed an eternal atonement which overcame death.  Only the innocent savior could overcome death.

Edited December 28, 2013 by pogi

[longview]

 

I see quite a few errors with these stages, at least from my own personal doctrinal beliefs.  I would have written them like this:

 

STAGE ONE:

  The "Gods" provide spirit bodies for intelligences which become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

Do you not believe that those intelligences have the free agency to choose what kind or nature of progression they would prefer and who to associate with?

  The most intelligent of them, Jesus, is the Firstborn Spirit Child of Heavenly Father and one of His Wives.

  Those spirit children progress are endowed with greater abilities and knowledge and observe the creation and are taught.

  They keep progressing until the time comes for them to enter mortality.

Do you agree that those spirit children can learn only so much that they will reach a limiting point?  Hence the need for a radical new learning environment and a new body of many more attributes?

 

STAGE TWO:

  Eloheim convenes the Great Council of the Gods and afterwards calls together the Spirit Children.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the fallen natures they would obtain they would be sinful and unable to return so eternal law required a sacrifice of mortal blood to pay for the sins.  Heavenly Father offers His sinless Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

Is Heavenly Father accountable to only Himself?  What about the "Host of Heaven" ?  Does not HF have power only from the love and honor  of ALL the Host?  God exercises power simply by saying the "word" and various "beings" leap to fulfil it?  If HF does one tiny thing that smacks of carnality or other kind of wickedness, won't God cease to be God?  Because the Host won't stand for it.

  Because the Plan requires "opposition", Lucifer unknowingly provides this oppositon by countering with his alternate plan and rebelling when not accepted and contnuing the war.

 

STAGE THREE:

  Experience of mortality (the Second Estate) with the Savior provided to make it possible to return.  Lucifer continues fighting because "misery loves company" and wants to get as many of them as possible to be in his chains.

 

STAGE FOUR:

  Death, return to God for Judgement.

 

STAGE FIVE:

  Exaltation of the few that "made it" and provision of ministry to those who didn't in order that God's purposes to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man might not be thwarted eternally.

 

STAGE SIX:

  Repeat process by those who are exalted while striving for a Higher order of Kingdoms begins.

Not sure what a "Higher Order of Kingdoms" might mean.  Do you mean continual increase in the "Dominions" over which God will preside?

 

Thank you for your perspective.  My responses in red in your quote.

[longview]

Why the chaos and need for a plan?

The fallen nature of Telestial Earth is rife with natural disasters, sickness, predatory animals, all kinds of grief, evil carnal men, and great many surprises.  Forest Gump says:  "Life is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you're going to get."  The Fall is analogous to the stuff that got released when Pandora opened the Box (Greek myth).

 

Jesus said (I am paraphrasing):  "If you are going to build a house, you must sit down and consider all the costs that might come into play."  We can't have a bunch of socialists sit around and chant a few pap slogans and throw together some kind of laboratory (planets) and inject beings into them.  The Plan requires careful accounting, proper acquisition of assets, serious care for the advancements of various classes of intelligences, and numerous other considerations that must dovetail perfectly together.  It would be crazy if God did not plan everything in advance.  The Atonement takes care of all breaches of the "Law of Justice" and ties together all loose ends.

[JLHPROF]

Thank you for your perspective.  My responses in red in your quote.

 

  The "Gods" provide spirit bodies for intelligences which become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

Do you not believe that those intelligences have the free agency to choose what kind or nature of progression they would prefer and who to associate with?

I suppose that depends on what "intelligences" actually were - self aware but without form perhaps?  I doubt that God specifically asked permission to father their spirit bodies any more than we ask permission of each spirit we bring to earth.  In many cases there were pre-mortal covenants made but I doubt every single baby that comes to earth follows that pattern.  Also, I think except for the spirits that fell, every spirit is coming to earth one way or another.  It's a natural process just as I think spirit birth was.

 

  They keep progressing until the time comes for them to enter mortality.

Do you agree that those spirit children can learn only so much that they will reach a limiting point?  Hence the need for a radical new learning environment and a new body of many more attributes?

Yes, I agree.

 

 

STAGE TWO:

  Eloheim convenes the Great Council of the Gods and afterwards calls together the Spirit Children.

  He proposes a Plan in which Spirit Children will have opportunity for orders of magnitude greater progression and more glorious body.

  He explains the risks of such a Plan.  Because of the fallen natures they would obtain they would be sinful and unable to return so eternal law required a sacrifice of mortal blood to pay for the sins.  Heavenly Father offers His sinless Firstborn Son to guarantee the integrity of the implementation of the Plan.

Is Heavenly Father accountable to only Himself?  What about the "Host of Heaven" ?  Does not HF have power only from the love and honor  of ALL the Host?  God exercises power simply by saying the "word" and various "beings" leap to fulfil it?  If HF does one tiny thing that smacks of carnality or other kind of wickedness, won't God cease to be God?  Because the Host won't stand for it.

 

I think you are confusing "Host of Heaven" with God's spirit children.  God does not operate by consensus or common consent.  God operates by eternal laws that if violated would cause him to cease to be God.   The relationship is a two-way responsibility entered into by both parties I agree - but that doesn't mean we can cause God to violate law.

 

  Repeat process by those who are exalted while striving for a Higher order of Kingdoms begins.

Not sure what a "Higher Order of Kingdoms" might mean.  Do you mean continual increase in the "Dominions" over which God will preside?

 

I'd love to tell you I knew what the Higher Order of Kingdoms were but I don't.  I only know two things about this:

1. When we reach that Celestial level where God dwells a higher order of Kingdoms will be made known to us (so something to progress to).

2. I don't believe the BRM teaching that God can only advance in dominion, not knowledge.  I believe God continues to progress in knowledge and power.  The other notion is nonsensical to me (and Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith, and others).  I don't believe any doctrine that permanently stops a being in a certain condition and never allows it to grow further in nature.