Premortal Children Questions

[WysteriaBlue]

1.  Is there any doctrine or belief that there were a "set" number of souls, beings or children in the premortal life? 

2.  If Lucifer took one third of the souls when he was cast out...was there then, a 'real' number of his followers? 

3.  If so, will the second coming of the Saviour coincide with the coming of the last premortal children being given the second estate and being given the chance to prove their potential and be tested in an earthly body? 

4. Will all spirit children get the chance to have earthly bodies?

 

These are honest and sincere questions that I have.  I have no agenda but understanding.  I see many theological consequences to the answers of these questions, but they are asked just to try and understand the Plan of Salvation and other things a little better.  I have tried to study and to ask, but cannot seem to find answers.

Respectfully,

wb

 

There is obviously a huge amount of doctrine and scripture to look over..but for me the some of these statements are what have my mind seeking...

• “The punishment of Satan and the third of the host of heaven who followed him, was that they were denied the privilege of being born into this world and receiving mortal bodies. They did not keep their first estate and were denied the opportunity of eternal progression. The Lord cast them out into the earth, where they became the tempters of mankind—the devil and his angels” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:65).
• “This is the last dispensation. [The Lord] has raised up men and women to carry on his work, and as I have often said, many of us have been held in the spirit world from the organization of this world, until the generation in which we live” (Wilford Woodruff, in Journal of Discourses, 21:284; see also “Responsibilities of the Priesthood,” Ensign, Sept. 1971, 20).

• “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none.

  “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” (Smith, Teachings, 181).

[strappinglad]

I will respond to number 3. No. Christ comes at the beginning of the millennium so there are 1000 years of births and deaths to follow.

contemplate Deut 32:8

Edited October 13, 2014 by strappinglad

[WysteriaBlue]

I had read this:

 

• “When Christ comes the saints who are on the earth will be quickened and caught up to meet him. This does not mean that those who are living in mortality at that time will be changed and pass through the resurrection, for mortals must remain on the earth until after the thousand years are ended. A change, nevertheless, will come over all who remain on the earth; they will be quickened so that they will not be subject unto death until they are old. Men shall die when they are one hundred years of age, and the change shall be made suddenly to the immortal state. Graves will not be made during this thousand years, and Satan shall have no power to tempt any man. Children shall grow up ‘as calves of the stall’ unto righteousness, that is, without sin or the temptations which are so prevalent today” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 298–99).

 

so does this mean that the earth and all it's creatures will return to an Eden like existence while the devil is bound?  Will those children on earth then not really be tested like those that have come before them...before the Millenium?

thanks for answering...wb

[rpn]

At the end of the millennium, satan will be unleashed for a time, before judgment.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think what he is asking is will the people born during the 1000 years of no Satan be tested at all or will they have a free pass to exaltation?

[JLHPROF]

 

1.  Is there any doctrine or belief that there were a "set" number of souls, beings or children in the premortal life? 

 

There is a specific generation/family of spirits assigned to this earth.  That mandates a finite number.  As far as I am aware there is no teaching on the quantity.  There are several other teachings that would lead to this conclusion - for example, in order for agency to be applied correctly all affected spirits would have had to be present at the council in heaven, else they would not have had the opportunity to accept/reject the proposed plans.

But I don't believe there is a finite number of spirit children in existence.

 

 

2.  If Lucifer took one third of the souls when he was cast out...was there then, a 'real' number of his followers? 

 

Lucifer took 1/3 part (implying 3 parts).  This does not necessarily equate to 1 out of 3  or 1/3.  And once again, this would indicate a real (finite) number, at least as pertains to this creation.

 

3.  If so, will the second coming of the Saviour coincide with the coming of the last premortal children being given the second estate and being given the chance to prove their potential and be tested in an earthly body? 

 

All spirits that pertain to this generation/family except for those who were cast out and lost that opportunity will gain mortal bodies and be subject to the requirements of the second estate.  When the last one will be born is anyone's guess - but presumably by the end of the millenial period, so that the winding up can conclude.

 

4. Will all spirit children get the chance to have earthly bodies?

 

Yes, as long as they kept their first estate.  Those that didn't rejected the plan of mortality and were cast out.

 

 

[WysteriaBlue]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to answer my questions...I appreciate you.

 

Yes, VGJ...that was my question...whether spirits during the Millenium would be really tested or perhaps going through the cleansing will be their tests.  That would probably be even harder than ours quite honestly. thanks.

 

One more question, should you choose to answer...  Would future family/generations on other planets reasonably expect to have similar processes occur like premortal counsels and similiar "evil" counterparts that would also inhabit their worlds....  Would they be unsealed intruders so to speak...or will they all be wiped out after Lucifer's last stand after the Millenium?

 

I do understand that I'm probably asking a question that may seem a bit hypothetical, but it comes from an honest curiosity from extention of the teachings I'm learning.  It seems at one point there should be sanctity and peace for those that have prevailed and been tested and judged worthy by the Godhood in the end.

 

I wish there were older, ward type missionaries available for questions like this that perplex me.  I study so much on my own and just don't know where to look at times without some guidance.  Just wishing...

Again, thank you all for your time and thoroughness of your answers.

Gratefully,

wb

[JAHS]

I would think that there had to be a finite number of spirit children and that they were no longer being created after the war in heaven. We know that there was a decision made in the pre-earth life by all spirits as to whether they would follow Jesus or Satan after which Satan and His followers were cast out. If spirit children were still being created after this they would never have had the chance to choose which way to go. 

[Tacenda]

I would think that there had to be a finite number of spirit children and that they were no longer being created after the war in heaven. We know that there was a decision made in the pre-earth life by all spirits as to whether they would follow Jesus or Satan after which Satan and His followers were cast out. If spirit children were still being created after this they would never have had the chance to choose which way to go.

Which begs the question , who made the finite number of spirit children?

[Ahab]

It's good to consider questions like this but we haven't been told the answers yet (at least not after the veil blocked our memories) and there are several reasonable and logical possibilities.

[Alan]

I don't think it is accurate to conclude that one third of the pre-mortal spirits followed Lucifer. It was actually "a third part", which is a different thing.

[katherine the great]

Aren't there many worlds?  Do all spirits born have to come to this planet?  Pre-existant spirits could still be being born and the war in heaven could still be going on.

[CV75]

 

1.  Is there any doctrine or belief that there were a "set" number of souls, beings or children in the premortal life? 

2.  If Lucifer took one third of the souls when he was cast out...was there then, a 'real' number of his followers? 

3.  If so, will the second coming of the Saviour coincide with the coming of the last premortal children being given the second estate and being given the chance to prove their potential and be tested in an earthly body? 

4. Will all spirit children get the chance to have earthly bodies?

From Moses 1:35, they are all numbered to God, but we are given onlyan accounting of this earth. Within that framework, while the plan of salvation was designed from before the foundation of the world/earth for all God's children, it is fully fulfilled only for the true and faithful. This would allow for the testing of everyone having a body, no matter at what point they are born into the earth's temporal existence, but obviously not all chose to receive earthly bodies.

[strappinglad]

True enough, but how far off 1/3 can we get before the third part becomes strained. If there were 100 billion spirits and 6 went with Satan  and 4 were fence sitters , would we reasonably say that a third part went with Satan  ?? Just like pi is given in the Bible as about 3, so it is probable that the 'third part'  should be around 30%.

Edited October 13, 2014 by strappinglad

[CV75]

Would future family/generations on other planets reasonably expect to have similar processes occur like premortal counsels and similiar "evil" counterparts that would also inhabit their worlds....  Would they be unsealed intruders so to speak...or will they all be wiped out after Lucifer's last stand after the Millenium?

We have an accounting of this earth only, but it is reasonable to presume that the same pattern repeats itself among other "generations" of God's children and on the other worlds He has created. Whether all God's created worlds impact processes and events on each other wouldn't affect or alter the plan of salvation.

[Calm]

True enough, but how far off 1/3 can we get before the third part becomes strained. If there were 100 billion spirits and 6 went with Satan  and 4 were fence sitters , would we reasonably say that a third part went with Satan  ?? Just like pi is given in the Bible as about 3, so it is probable that the 'third part'  should be around 30%.

According to BY there were no fence sitters. Everyone decided who they would follow. There was variation in valiancy and intelligence apparently.

[WysteriaBlue]

This seems to say that there were no fence sitters??

 

“There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:65–66).

[JLHPROF]

Aren't there many worlds?  Do all spirits born have to come to this planet?  Pre-existant spirits could still be being born and the war in heaven could still be going on.

 

Of course pre-existent spirits continue to be born.  I'm just of the belief that they will belong to another earth.

I find doctrinal issues in the notion that spirit children are still being born that will come to this earth.

[strappinglad]

The point was that ' the third part ' implies 2 other parts. Pick your own division. Whereas if ' the third part' actually means 1/3 then the rest( 2/3 ) can be one group.

[JAHS]

Aren't there many worlds?  Do all spirits born have to come to this planet?  Pre-existant spirits could still be being born and the war in heaven could still be going on.

 

There are many worlds which no doubt have people on them populated by spirits from the pre-mortal world. But Satan was cast out after the war in heaven. I don't see how the war could still be happening without him or any of his followers there. And if he is no longer there his influence would no longer be there to entice new spirits to follow him and after knowing what happened to Satan and his followers, why would other new spirits even consider fighting against God's plan?

But then I don't think anyone knows the exact details of how it all happened or is happening.

[WysteriaBlue]

•“The punishment of Satan and the third of the host of heaven who followed him, was that they were denied the privilege of being born into this world and receiving mortal bodies. They did not keep their first estate and were denied the opportunity of eternal progression. The Lord cast them out into the earth, where they became the tempters of mankind—the devil and his angels” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:65)

 

This does seem to indicate that it was a "third" although other sources also state one third part...and that of the original council...had to do with this "earth" ("this world") both in terms of those going through the second estate at one point or another as well as those cast out with satan.

 

I'm just putting information out as I study and listen to what you all have to say..issues having to do with other worlds and their trials or lives/future/past seems still a question...

[JAHS]

•“The punishment of Satan and the third of the host of heaven who followed him, was that they were denied the privilege of being born into this world and receiving mortal bodies. They did not keep their first estate and were denied the opportunity of eternal progression. The Lord cast them out into the earth, where they became the tempters of mankind—the devil and his angels” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:65)

 

This does seem to indicate that it was a "third" although other sources also state one third part...and that of the original council...had to do with this "earth" ("this world") both in terms of those going through the second estate at one point or another as well as those cast out with satan.

 

I'm just putting information out as I study and listen to what you all have to say..issues having to do with other worlds and their trials or lives/future/past seems still a question...

 

I think when the prophets refer to "the earth" in this regard they are referring to the earth that we all live on, but there are of course other earths where followers of satan were cast down to, to tempt the people on those worlds (consider also what we learn in the temple about Satan's activities). 

We are also told that Jesus is the savior for all the earths and their inhabitants, but ours just happened to be the one where he performed the atonement. 

 

"Worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose,there are many (worlds) that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man" (Moses 1:33, 35). 

 

Concerning the universality of the Savior's work, Elder Marion G. Romney declared:

"Except for his mortal ministry accomplished on this earth, his service and relationship to other worlds and their inhabitants are the same as his service and relationship to this earth and its inhabitants" (Improvement Era, Nov. 1968, 46).

 

God said to Moses:

"Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36).  (Hence the reason Jesus came to our earth)

 

Of course Jesus would have had to go to these other worlds to teach his gospel as we learn in the Book of Mormon:

 

"And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them. (3 Nephi 16: 1-3)

 

So it seems that all the spirits who knew Jesus in the pre-mortal world must be the same spirits who dwell on all the earths in the universe; not just this earth, but we sometimes talk as if this is the only earth because that is our immediate concern.

[ERayR]

I don't think it is accurate to conclude that one third of the pre-mortal spirits followed Lucifer. It was actually "a third part", which is a different thing.

 

Yes it is and it could be less than 1/3, 1/3 or more than 1/3.  As the exact number has not been revealed take your pick.

 

From my understanding of what I read I personally think that 1/3 is probably real close.

Edited October 13, 2014 by ERayR

[katherine the great]

There are many worlds which no doubt have people on them populated by spirits from the pre-mortal world. But Satan was cast out after the war in heaven. I don't see how the war could still be happening without him or any of his followers there. And if he is no longer there his influence would no longer be there to entice new spirits to follow him and after knowing what happened to Satan and his followers, why would other new spirits even consider fighting against God's plan?

But then I don't think anyone knows the exact details of how it all happened or is happening.

I agree--nobody really knows. But if spirits are still being born are they deprived of the choice to gain a body or not? (I don't know the answer-just trying to follow the logical sequence of events.)

[CV75]

There are many worlds which no doubt have people on them populated by spirits from the pre-mortal world.

 

I agree--nobody really knows. But if spirits are still being born are they deprived of the choice to gain a body or not? (I don't know the answer-just trying to follow the logical sequence of events.)

This is why I like to use the term “generation” – it allows for the grouping or assignment of spirits to a our world from before its foundation, and whether they come into our world through Adam (Moses 6: 8 ) or through the devil (D&C 29:37). Other worlds are simply formed around "generations" of spirits other than ours, and apparently independently from one another (D&C 130:5).

 

So I'd say that spirits "still being born" who have not been part of our "generation's" Grand Council will participate in another as part of a distinct "generation."

Edited October 13, 2014 by CV75