Progression Between Kingdoms

[strappinglad]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We are always going to be progressing or regressing

There in lies the rub. If we can progress and if we have free will, does that not also imply a possible regression. Perhaps there is a ' recycling ' available. " This life is the time for repentance " absolutely must include some time in the post -mortal world , otherwise what is to be done with those who never heard of Christ or repentance while in mortality ? And while in the post-mortal world there would need to be opposition and free choice. If there is a ' morning of the first resurrection ' then there is an ' evening of the last resurrection ' wherein the last farthing must have been paid to " Justice " . How long that will take is unrevealed.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The standard argument against progression between kingdoms is that judgement is largely a judgment about what people want and is accurate. Thus people don't want to go to an other kingdom. Second that the bodies received in the resurrection are permanent and different between kingdoms. 

Typically in contemporary times progression between kingdoms is tied to open theism (God doesn't know the future) and a strong ontological agent libertarian free will commitment. If you don't buy or are at least skeptical of those two ontological positions one tends to be less enthused about progression between kingdoms.

I think foreknowledge is but a form of faith, and for this reason I still see no progression between kingdoms despite God's perfect foreknowledge (faith). Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, some doing that in the possession of less agency than others, but nonetheless our agency is all we truly have to render unto God (per Elder Maxwell), no matter how deficient it may be due to our willfully willful choices and our refusal of grace. So I think that after all is said and done, all we have is the free will we render to God, and that is all we are able and willing to enjoy (D&C 88:32).

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

This is what it all boils down to - we should live as if judgment is final, even if we hope that it is not.

I would not bank on that hope for a second!  How does that hope help us live better lives?  What does it give us practically speaking?  The only thing that I can think of is that it might ease the guilty mind and comfort the sloth-like soul into procrastinating the day of their repentance.

I would be careful. For some the doctrine is more a hope for those they love rather than themselves. I have extended family members that to one degree or another rejected the gospel to some extent and I believe they had a chance to accept the gospel here. Some are dead. I hope exaltation can be found by them one day.

[Glenn101]

   After perusing the different posts I am leaning towards a belief that there will be no progression between kingdoms. In addition to the scriptures JAHS quoted, there is the declaration by Nephi:
"And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. (2 Nephi 28:8)

For those who are arguing that since we will be progressing eternally it stands to reason that there will be progression between kingdoms I would also offer Doctrine and Covenants Section 32.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Now this does not exactly answer the question about progression between kingdoms, but it does pretty much tell us that even for those who lead righteous lives and do everything right but be sealed to a wife for time and eternity, their progression will be limited. They will never attain exaltation.

The phrase "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" sounds like a pretty long time to me. Not something I would want to take a chance on myself.

Glenn

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The bottom line is we are talking about not just eternity, but endless eternities forever and ever.
The idea that ANY being will be stuck in a limited situation forever more with no hope of escape simply doesn't fit with scripture.  We are always going to be progressing or regressing.  Stagnancy is the true definition of hell.

What scripture are you referring to? One can be progressing or regressing on very different tracts that never meet after all. My sense is you're injecting some assumptions about what eternity and infinity entail. Perhaps I've just been corrupted by dealing with infinities too often in physics and mathematics but I just don't think what you assert follows. I'm completely open to being wrong if you can explain your reasoning.

The scriptures can be read in many ways especially since the various words for eternal or infinity often mean quality rather than duration. (Think D&C 19 for instance)

As others have noted, many scriptures like D&C 132 seem to imply some judgements are eternal in terms of duration. Now I'm a fallibilist so I'm open to those scriptures needing revision. But I'd want to see the argument since it seems the bulk of the evidence points the other direction.

Edited November 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Freedom]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We are assigned the type of body that can abide the Kingdom by the type of  life we led. We don't die again after the Resurrection. So I believe there is no progression between Kingdoms.

I think this is based on the false assumption that there are specific types of bodies. The doctrine teaches that we will be given our own body, not some prefab. You are relating a resurrected body to a type of vehicle. Some will get a bicycle, some a boat, some an airplane. A bicycle can never be a boat, and a boat can never be an airplane. You are also assuming that it is an all at once and never again model. I suspect that exultation and the glory that the body will need to endure is gradual. I think a better comparison would be to physical fitness. 

I compare it to jogging. We are all invited to join a running club with the promise of a prize at the end. Many join, but in the end, to the disappointment of some, they discover that the prize is an all expense paid admission to the Boston marathon. This is heaven. Many are in the running club, but not all will be able to complete the marathon. Some are in it for the prize only to discover that the prize is more of what we were told to to here - serve. For some of those who have the right intentions, it will take more time. This is what the eternities is all about. 

The reality is, we have existed for ever and this life is a probationary state. The way we live here is our nature. We live according to our wills and pleasures. We are resurrected to a place we want to go, not a place we are banished to. Nevertheless, even those who are hoping to enter the marathon, and many are heading along the same path, some are much further ahead. When we are resurrected, we will be resurrected with potential, not a sealed and fixed status. Consider the wages, no matter when you started to work, the wages is the same. 

So then, what is the purpose of this life? We are being tested on our actions prior to this stage. Those who take advantage of the opportunities to learn here will so much the advantage of those who do not. 

[Rivers]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I don't believe it is a matter of physical perfection per say, as much as it is a matter of type of individual we are. IE: We will all be free from mortal illness, and defect. However we are all different in how amenable to God we choose to act. I personally believe The Son of the Morning  is physically beautiful beyond our comprehension. It is his actions that are ugly.

Exactly. I view the degrees of glory more as states of being rather than physical locations.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Exactly. I view the degrees of glory more as states of being rather than physical locations.

can that state of being mean being unrepentant and unwilling to follow the truth?

[MrSpruceMoose]

A scripture comes to mind:

 

Alma 34:32 For behold, this ^alife is the time for men to ^bprepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of ^cthis life is the day for men to perform their ^dlabors.

 

The argument for eternal progression has some good points. The idea of it is nice also. But why would we need this life then? What's the point? If I can live a telestial life here and move up to a celestial glory in the next then what reason do I have to keep the commandments. Aside from those in spirit prison getting the chance they never had in this life, I don't see anything to say that we can get a do-over in the next life. If I'm wrong then I'll admit it when it becomes doctrine or we find out in the next life, but until then it sounds like wishful thinking to me.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, MrSpruceMoose said:

The argument for eternal progression has some good points. The idea of it is nice also. But why would we need this life then? What's the point? 

Kids need to grow up and leave home in order to become their own people in many cases.  I think it would be a good idea if all newlyweds lived at least an hour from parents' home so they start thinking of themselves as their own unit and not an extension of their parents' family.  My husband always had the option when stuff got tense between us to take off and have some fun with his brothers or just stay the evening at his parents and get treated as he always did.  He didn't do itvoften, but it made a world of difference to the degree of talking through issues when we moved out of state from his parents.  It is nice being around family again now we have our own family personality, but I am grateful for that time away where we had to figure out our own identity, both as individuals and as a couple.

I think it would be infinitely harder to do if the parents involved were perfect, all knowing, all loving.  Where would we feel safer than with them, just doing exactly what they told us to do (the majority of us at least)?  Being mortal, separate not only from our heavenly parents, but everyone else...we can learn who we are without our own light being lost in much brighter ones.

Our Father and Mother don't want us to be just repetitions of them, but true and full expressions of the potential of our Selves.  They are allowing us to learn what is truly important to us so that when we are back in the position to fully comprehend what they are offering us, we will know what we want and need in certainty and have no doubt or second thoughts that maybe this isn't really what we want, but just what we have been told we want.  Iow, we will be able to fully commit ourselves to our paths, the only way perfection can actually occur.

[MrSpruceMoose]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Kids need to grow up and leave home in order to become their own people in many cases.  I think it would be a good idea if all newlyweds lived at least an hour from parents' home so they start thinking of themselves as their own unit and not an extension of their parents' family.  My husband always had the option when stuff got tense between us to take off and have some fun with his brothers or just stay the evening at his parents and get treated as he always did.  He didn't do itvoften, but it made a world of difference to the degree of talking through issues when we moved out of state from his parents.  It is nice being around family again now we have our own family personality, but I am grateful for that time away where we had to figure out our own identity, both as individuals and as a couple.

I think it would be infinitely harder to do if the parents involved were perfect, all knowing, all loving.  Where would we feel safer than with them, just doing exactly what they told us to do (the majority of us at least)?  Being mortal, separate not only from our heavenly parents, but everyone else...we can learn who we are without our own light being lost in much brighter ones.

Our Father and Mother don't want us to be just repetitions of them, but true and full expressions of the potential of our Selves.  They are allowing us to learn what is truly important to us so that when we are back in the position to fully comprehend what they are offering us, we will know what we want and need in certainty and have no doubt or second thoughts that maybe this isn't really what we want, but just what we have been told we want.  Iow, we will be able to fully commit ourselves to our paths, the only way perfection can actually occur.

All that is very well and good and I certainly agree. I can't tell what your point is though. Do you realized the questions that you quoted I posed to make a point for the rest of my post and not because I didn't know the answer? 

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Not so sure about that.

That makes hash out of the Gospel. Either everyone can repent or no one can. That doesn't mean all will repent however.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

That makes hash out of the Gospel. Either everyone can repent or no one can. That doesn't mean all will repent however.

The term unforgivable sin is still part of our doctrine.

[pogi]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would be careful. For some the doctrine is more a hope for those they love rather than themselves. I have extended family members that to one degree or another rejected the gospel to some extent and I believe they had a chance to accept the gospel here. Some are dead. I hope exaltation can be found by them one day.

I don't think that hope for lost loved needs be solely contingent upon the theory of progression between kingdoms.  There can be hope without the possibility of kingdom hopping.  I think people forget that final judgement does not happen at death.  It will only happen after the last resurrection following the second coming and millennial reign.  We need not suppose that a person will only have one chance to accept the gospel, or that the chance they have had was sufficient to justify eternal judgement. 

I take hope in the following quote:

Quote

Orson F. Whitney: 
"You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours-long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend. 
    "The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant sevice int he Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or in the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tred a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God" 
(in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110)

This quote was used earlier in the thread as evidence of kingdom hopping, but I don't read it that way at all.  To me it says that full accountability cannot come without full knowledge.  That knowledge still has ages to develop in the after life and millennium before we become fully accountable at final judgment. 

[Freedom]

18 hours ago, MrSpruceMoose said:

A scripture comes to mind:

 

Alma 34:32 For behold, this ^alife is the time for men to ^bprepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of ^cthis life is the day for men to perform their ^dlabors.

 

The argument for eternal progression has some good points. The idea of it is nice also. But why would we need this life then? What's the point? If I can live a telestial life here and move up to a celestial glory in the next then what reason do I have to keep the commandments. Aside from those in spirit prison getting the chance they never had in this life, I don't see anything to say that we can get a do-over in the next life. If I'm wrong then I'll admit it when it becomes doctrine or we find out in the next life, but until then it sounds like wishful thinking to me.

This is the time for sure, but you also have to consider the doctrine of eternal progression. If this is the time, then what is the point of eternal progression? The book of mormon, remember, teaches doctrines in absolute terms. Right and wrong, heaven or hell, joy or misery. It is filled with dualism and presents the plan of salvation in very simple terms. High school is the time to prepare to get to university. Those who drop out will be so much further behind than those who work hard and get good grades. It will be much more difficult since mortality is a special school for us to learn, but it will not be impossible. It would be hell to me if one of my children died in sin. I will spend all eternity reaching out to them. There are no gates at the entrance of the celestial kingdom, no guards. All are welcome. In time, many will have a change of heart and seek to be more like Jesus. If it takes them 10,000 years I will be there waiting for them. 

 

Imagine the injustice if two people live a riotous life and get into a car crash, One dies and is cast down to hell, the other lives and in his later years, receives the gospel and repents. Due to pure luck, he got more time to change his life. No, this cannot be the end. This is simply part of the journey. 

[MrSpruceMoose]

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

This is the time for sure, but you also have to consider the doctrine of eternal progression. If this is the time, then what is the point of eternal progression? The book of mormon, remember, teaches doctrines in absolute terms. Right and wrong, heaven or hell, joy or misery. It is filled with dualism and presents the plan of salvation in very simple terms. High school is the time to prepare to get to university. Those who drop out will be so much further behind than those who work hard and get good grades. It will be much more difficult since mortality is a special school for us to learn, but it will not be impossible. It would be hell to me if one of my children died in sin. I will spend all eternity reaching out to them. There are no gates at the entrance of the celestial kingdom, no guards. All are welcome. In time, many will have a change of heart and seek to be more like Jesus. If it takes them 10,000 years I will be there waiting for them. 

 

What is the 'doctrine' of eternal progression'? Any argument in favor of moving up in glories is only supported by imaginary connect the dot explainations fueled by wishful thinking. As great as the idea of someone being able to move up in the next life is, where is the scriptural basis for it? Neither modern day prophets or scripture has said anything that even hints at the possibilty of it. In fact there is quite a bit that is much more concrete saying that you cannot move up in glory.

What is the point of temple work? We do temple work for those who did not have a chance in this life because they cannot do it themselves. Someone can move from the state of spirit prison to paradise only with the help of us who are here in this life. 

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

Imagine the injustice if two people live a riotous life and get into a car crash, One dies and is cast down to hell, the other lives and in his later years, receives the gospel and repents. Due to pure luck, he got more time to change his life. No, this cannot be the end. This is simply part of the journey. 

There is no pure luck. Our days are known and are numbered. God does not allow a life to end based on "luck." In a situation as you described, one would live and one would die because that is how it was divinely meant to be.  

[JAHS]

Is there an echo in here? This topic is showing up twice on my screen.

Edited November 16, 2017 by JAHS

[Benjamin Seeker]

Here are some quotes for progression. Do any of these having any doctrinal weight? Who knows. I’d put the most stock in Hyrum since he was very close to JS at the time and was in a position of uber-authority. I like the reasoning of the Snow quote best though.

For Progression - Brigham Young (Prophet)
Reference:  Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 5 Aug 1855 
====================
I attended the Prayer Circle in the evening … In conversing upon various principles President Young said none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fullness of the presence of God, except they would be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. He said they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom, but it would be a slow progress. 
==================== 


For Progression - Hyrum Smith (Assistant President of the Church, Church Patriarch, Member of the Quorum of the Twelve)
Reference:  August 1, 1843, transcribed by Franklin D. Richards; Words of the Prophet, pg. 24; CHO Ms/d/4409/Misc Minutes Collection
====================
Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes". Also that br George will be quickened by celestial glory having been ministered to by one of that Kingdom.
====================


For Progression - Franklin D. Richards (Member of the Quorum of the Twelve)
Reference:  Journal of Discourses, Volume 25:236, May 17, 1884
====================
The Savior tells us that the terrestrial glory, or kingdom, is likened unto the glory of the moon, which is not of the brightness of the sun, neither of the smallness nor dimness of the stars. But those others who have no part in marrying or giving of marriage in the last resurrection, they become as stars, and even differ from each other in glory; but those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who will come forth at the time when Enoch comes back, when the Savior comes again to dwell upon the earth; when Father Abraham will be there with the Urim and Thummim to look after every son and daughter of his race; to make known all things that are needed to be known, and with them enter into their promised inheritance. Thus the people of God will go forward. They will go forward, like unto the new moon, increasing in knowledge and brightness and glory, until they come to a fullness of celestial glory.
====================
 

For Progression - Lorenzo Snow (Member of the Quorum of the Twelve)
Reference:  Collected Discourses 3:364-65; General Conference Address, 6 October 1893
====================
God has fulfilled His promises to us, and our prospects are grand and glorious.  Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters.  If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and ever tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ.  You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters.  If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory.  This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains.  Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels.  Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.  When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, Hesaw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sisters - the sons and daughters of God - would be gathered in, with but few exceptions - those who committed the unpardonable sin.  That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan.  I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end.  It may not be in this life.  It was not with the antediluvians.  They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived.  They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.
====================
 

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The term unforgivable sin is still part of our doctrine.

The only unforgivable sin is the refusal to repent. As I said everyone can repent, but not everyone will repent.

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, Freedom said:

This is the time for sure, but you also have to consider the doctrine of eternal progression. If this is the time, then what is the point of eternal progression? The book of mormon, remember, teaches doctrines in absolute terms. Right and wrong, heaven or hell, joy or misery. It is filled with dualism and presents the plan of salvation in very simple terms. High school is the time to prepare to get to university. Those who drop out will be so much further behind than those who work hard and get good grades. It will be much more difficult since mortality is a special school for us to learn, but it will not be impossible. It would be hell to me if one of my children died in sin. I will spend all eternity reaching out to them. There are no gates at the entrance of the celestial kingdom, no guards. All are welcome. In time, many will have a change of heart and seek to be more like Jesus. If it takes them 10,000 years I will be there waiting for them. 

 

Imagine the injustice if two people live a riotous life and get into a car crash, One dies and is cast down to hell, the other lives and in his later years, receives the gospel and repents. Due to pure luck, he got more time to change his life. No, this cannot be the end. This is simply part of the journey. 

I think only small minority of God's children will choose not to repent when hearing the Gospel either in this life or the next.

Only God has the authority to determine what is fair chance at hearing and accepting the Gospel if they had endured, and that extends into the next life for most people who have ever lived.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't think that hope for lost loved needs be solely contingent upon the theory of progression between kingdoms.  There can be hope without the possibility of kingdom hopping.  I think people forget that final judgement does not happen at death.  It will only happen after the last resurrection following the second coming and millennial reign.  We need not suppose that a person will only have one chance to accept the gospel, or that the chance they have had was sufficient to justify eternal judgement. 

I take hope in the following quote:

This quote was used earlier in the thread as evidence of kingdom hopping, but I don't read it that way at all.  To me it says that full accountability cannot come without full knowledge.  That knowledge still has ages to develop in the after life and millennium before we become fully accountable at final judgment. 

Fully agree.  I have not seen a single quote here that I think says anything about progression between kingdoms.  We will be resurrected when we are ready.

If we were judged at death, then there would be no purpose for temples or work for the dead to allow for progression.   Those who never heard of the gospel would have no way of accepting it after death.

It almost seems that they have never seen the various plan of salvation diagrams!!  Premortal Life > Earth Life > Spirit World > Final Judgement > Resurrection > Kingdoms of Glory.

Elementary stuff!!

We are born innocent and live our lives and mess them up or not mess them up within a few years, relatively speaking.  If we can mess up our lives in a short time, we can repent in a few years as well.

I have no clue why people think repentance goes on anywhere but the spirit world and every quote here seems to have that central flaw- of thinking that repentance or further sin actually takes place AFTER the resurrection.  Yet there is clear evidence that we are resurrected with the type of body which matches our kingdom of glory

No one at all has addressed how that is supposed to work on the theory of progression between kingdoms.

 

[Alan]

Progression from kingdom to kingdom is clearly taught in the endowment ceremony.

[Meerkat]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:30 AM, smac97 said:

I think that declaration is presumptuous and naive.  I think we lack sufficient light and knowledge to speak intelligently about progression between kingdoms.

I admire the Givens, but absent revelatory guidance on the subject, the case cannot be "made."  It's just conjecture.  Reasoned and hopeful, to be sure, but conjecture all the same.  And as such, I can't put too much stock in it.

Scott Woodward has compiled a good list of statements about this topic (both pro and con): Selected Teachings on Is There Progression Within and/or Between the Kingdoms of Glory?

I can't agree to that.  I think there is some real risk in making definitive declarations on topics about which we lack light and knowledge.  We run the risk of alienating ourselves from the entirety of the Gospel because we cherish too much one particular facet of it.

Let's not draw lines in the sand.  Let us instead work with what we've got, and study and trust in God as to speculative/conjectural issues like this one.

Thanks,

-Smac

The bolded statement makes sense to me.  The rest of it sounds like you are drawing a line in the sand: "We run the risk of alienating ourselves from the entirety of the Gospel because we cherish too much one particular facet of it."  How is That? Can we not learn, grow, repent (turn from our misunderstandings to accurate thoughts and actions) beyond this life?  

Outside of the Temple, we should be able to engage in reasonable conversation about controversial things.  The idea of movement between kingdoms appeals to me because I have two wayward loved ones who are otherwise decent people in many ways.  Eternity is a long time.  If God is to complete His stated work, I am encouraged that there may be movement.  I am of the "No empty chairs" school, that Christ has the power to save all except those who ultimately in the aeons refuse to embrace light and knowledge and turn from darkness (repent).  There is enough ambiguity in the scriptures to allow for hope on this and many other topics.

Consider this: "For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer."  2 Nephi 10:2

I love this Gospel.  I know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet.  I believe we are led by prophets today (and the Holy Ghost.)  I hang my hat on those things, and the fruits of the Gospel I have experienced.  Beyond that, there is much knowledge to wrestle and embrace in our quest for ultimate truth.

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, MrSpruceMoose said:

There is no pure luck. Our days are known and are numbered. God does not allow a life to end based on "luck." In a situation as you described, one would live and one would die because that is how it was divinely meant to be.  

So there are no accidents?  Tell that to an hermaphrodite.  Tell that to those who have died in war or other circumstances that happened before they experienced the mighty change of heart.  Why did Christ preach to the spirits in prison from the days of Noah? Why are we then baptized for the dead?  Your theory does not square with the love and mercy of the God I worship, who saved a sinner like me.  It doesn't make sense to me that I would be saved, but my virtuous Father who lacked faith in the Savior would be lost.  There is enough ambiguity in the scriptures, scribed at the hand of fallible men, that gives me hope.  I believe God is infinitely more merciful than I am now.

[Stargazer]

On 11/14/2017 at 7:36 PM, JLHPROF said:

Not so sure about that.

The notion that someone has done something so heinous (short of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) that the Atonement of Christ cannot cover them upon repentance seems to sell the Atonement short. It is referred to in scripture as an "infinite" atonement.  So why cannot Hitler be covered?