Progression Between Kingdoms

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So how are those two possibilities excluded from what Elder Clark says here?

I am not discounting those possible interpretations.  But in the end, it doesn't really matter which interpretation is correct because either way, it is all conjecture.  All that really matters is that the church has admittedly stated that the brethren are in disagreement about this subject, and they do not take a position.  So even if you are right about Elder Clark, there are still others who disagree with that position. 

My purpose is simply to show that while interesting to discuss, there is no doctrine on the matter and not even the brethren are in agreement admittedly. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Look- I personally believe in eternal progression and honestly look at all this kingdom stuff as metaphorical poetry saying "If you are good, you get all God has.  If you have half-good you only get a portion of what God wants you to have".   Literalists always want every jot and tittle made perfectly clear but that doesn't work with God.

The question for me is to create a coherent interpretation out of the jumble of all these quotes and the bottom line is the BODY PROBLEM which no one addresses.  Do you switch bodies when you switch kingdoms?   This is not about "what really happens" after we are resurrected - not for me anyhow.   Anyone can get their own testimony on that one.   I am not even sure our bodies need to change.   I don't see why one could not just get more zapped or whatever happens when one qualifies.

But that is not part of a coherent theory of the afterlife.   We ain't got one.   So as usual it's Orthopraxis, be good and see how it turns out.

So I don't think it is wise to build an entire gospel interpretation on the sandy foundation of the word "TO"  which is just a mite ambiguous  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/to

 

 

•  

Well I figure you would no that all of the quotes won’t play nicely together. Anyhow, If you throw some version of post-resurrection mortal probation in there, then the body problem is solved. However, you know that I’m on the metaphorical side of things, which makes this debate pretty ironic. However, I think it’s disingenuous to say that’s Hyrum, Brigham and Franklin didn’t think that full progression from one kingdom to another was possible (thus Franklin said fullness).

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The question for me is to create a coherent interpretation out of the jumble of all these quotes and the bottom line is the BODY PROBLEM which no one addresses. 

I can address that one.

While I agree, at present, that there is no kingdom jumping, I do see legitimate reason to believe otherwise.  I just like to play devils advocate sometimes to help me explore our doctrines from different perspectives.

It is clear that different bodies will be resurrected to different states of glory.  If I understand you correctly, the problem with the kingdom jumping theory is that bodies will need to be changed in order to do that.  I don't understand why that is a problem however since it is already established doctrine that bodies can, and will, change in glory even after resurrection.  

Example 1) Resurrection happens before final judgment.  So, celestial and terrestrial bodies which take part in the millennium can still fall from grace when Satan will be released at the end of the millennium.  So , celestial beings can become terrestrial, etc. even after being resurrected to a celestial state. 

Example 2) God can cease to be God if he does not obey eternal law.  That means that even God can fall from grace. 

Example 3)  There are subdivisions within kingdoms, just as "one star differs from another star in glory".  We know for sure that there is progression within kingdoms.  So if a body can change/progress in glory within a kingdom, there is no theological reason to suggest that it can't change/progress beyond kingdoms.  

Our bodies can physically change and grow in "glory" with good diet and exercise/weight lifting, I don't see why our resurrected bodies can't do the same with some spiritual weightlifting.  

Edited November 17, 2017 by pogi

[janderich]

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Look- I personally believe in eternal progression and honestly look at all this kingdom stuff as metaphorical poetry saying "If you are good, you get all God has.  If you have half-good you only get a portion of what God wants you to have".   Literalists always want every jot and tittle made perfectly clear but that doesn't work with God.

The question for me is to create a coherent interpretation out of the jumble of all these quotes and the bottom line is the BODY PROBLEM which no one addresses.  Do you switch bodies when you switch kingdoms?   This is not about "what really happens" after we are resurrected - not for me anyhow.   Anyone can get their own testimony on that one.   I am not even sure our bodies need to change.   I don't see why one could not just get more zapped or whatever happens when one qualifies.

But that is not part of a coherent theory of the afterlife.   We ain't got one.   So as usual it's Orthopraxis, be good and see how it turns out.

So I don't think it is wise to build an entire gospel interpretation on the sandy foundation of the word "TO"  which is just a mite ambiguous  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/to

 

 

•  

I addressed the "body" problem. Go look at my previous posts. 

[mfbukowski]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not discounting those possible interpretations.  But in the end, it doesn't really matter which interpretation is correct because either way, it is all conjecture.  All that really matters is that the church has admittedly stated that the brethren are in disagreement about this subject, and they do not take a position.  So even if you are right about Elder Clark, there are still others who disagree with that position. 

My purpose is simply to show that while interesting to discuss, there is no doctrine on the matter and not even the brethren are in agreement admittedly. 

OK well as usual then we are on the same page though I do not find it "interesting".

So why am I here?

Heck if I know.   Probably self-flagellation.  

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, janderich said:

Our bodies certainly do correspond to the kingdom we inherit. But entering into a kingdom is not the end. We will be added on again and again. At the end of one eternal round we will enter into another round, and yet another. One probation after another, one resurrection after another, until we obtain our resurrected bodies free and clear. Then we will no more taste of death. 

Here is how Brigham Young once explained it: 

Brigham says there are countless lives in us and that we will secure to ourselves a resurrection and then receive more and more, one after the other until we are crowned Gods.

Here is another from Heber C. Kimball: 

Heber here tells us that the arising in the morning is similar to the resurrection and that we will repeat that process again and again. 

I have now provided you the information you have requested on eternal progression and how the body we obtain corresponds to the kingdom we receive. I expect you will still not accept it. But store it away. Consider it again in time of quiet contemplation and the Lord may reveal it to you. 

Hey, there you go.  Give this man a cigar! 

You are right- this is a coherent explanation.  Thanks for showing me a solution to make both work

The only problem is that it is similar to the "reincarnation" view that some have which conflicts with the idea of one probation- one time through for everyone- get it right or miss out.

But then we have the problem of the definition of "eternity"-  I suppose 

But this is what makes Mormonism really- we have so many "doctrines" and beliefs that we have quite a lot of choices in which one works for us.

And this is also quite similar to the idea of Buddhist Chakras- and the Ouroboros- I should have figured out your position just from your avatar- sorry asleep at the switch!

For the Buddhist reference and for those who are not getting this see this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra

For the science minded suppose there are multiple eternities - like multiple big bangs and each big bang = 1 'eternity'-  big bang, collapse into a singularity, big bang etc.

So anyway- yep thanks this works as a theory which is coherent.  So it is up to us to get a testimony or not.   Thanks for the edification.

[Freedom]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:41 AM, MrSpruceMoose said:

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58;Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons shy there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.

George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:402. I could explain a 100 fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.

Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.

It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. [Italics in the original.] No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

 

From all of these modern day prophets it seems pretty clear what the doctrine is. But of course, the "church" hasn't taken a position so that must mean it's open to interpretation right?

Hmm... not a single scripture reference. None of these quotes are doctrinal and I can go to these references and post all sorts of quotes that you would like to dismiss. Our doctrine is found in the scriptures and in the official proclamations.