Our Earth was the last to be subjected to the Fall?

[rodheadlee]

This Thread reminds me of Lynn Hilton and the Kolob Theorem. I am very uneducated but it sounds to me like it's a very doable theorem. I believe the premises is Jesus Christ is the God of our galaxy or will be the God of our galaxy after He hands it over to his Father after completing the work. I believe it also proposes that each galaxy has its own God and they are aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters of our God. The closer to the center of the Galaxy your planet is the closer to Kolob you are and you are in a higher  Realm.

Also the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob on the Blinking of an Eye" has to do with this.

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by rodheadlee

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

f Lynn Hilton and the Kolob Theorem. I am very uneducated but it sounds to me like it's a very doable theorem. I believe the premises is Jesus Christ is the God of our galaxy or will be the God of our galaxy after He hands it over to his Father after completing the work. I believe it also proposes that each galaxy has its own God and they are aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters of our God.

Hmm. I actually think much like this. The creation of the heavens refers to the creation of the Milky Way. When you look at the sky with the naked eye, essentially every star you see is in the Milky Way... It makes up our heaven. However, I do not believe Christ hands over the galaxy to the Father, but rather the opposite... The Father hands over the government to the Son, who will be called the eternal Father. Isa 9:6. This is essentially why trinitarianism is wrong, and why Joseph Smith was told the creeds are an abomination to YHVH. I don't know about the aunts and uncles part...never heard it desribed that way, and don't know of any scripture or revelation to support that one.... I sometimes feel that there will be two new worlds after this one, but don't yet see how that will take place scripturally. I assume these things will be known when the last trump sounds and the mystery of God is finished, but there won't be a lot of people around to take advantage of it...

[marineland]

18 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I don't know about the aunts and uncles part...never heard it desribed that way, and don't know of any scripture or revelation to support that one.

You believe Heavenly Father was the only spirit child of his heavenly parents and
had no brothers and sisters who also became Gods?

[InCognitus]

39 minutes ago, marineland said:

You believe Heavenly Father was the only spirit child of his heavenly parents and
had no brothers and sisters who also became Gods?

Or, he is the self existent being that is the God of all other gods, as it says in Doctrine and Covenants 121:32, and he "became" our God when "finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself", and presented the plan to others so that they could become like him, and all those who follow him and become Gods "are kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you” (as Joseph Smith taught).

There are plenty of other ways of understanding Joseph Smith's teachings than the way that you keep trying to present them.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Or, he is the self existent being that is the God of all other gods, as it says in Doctrine and Covenants 121:32, and he "became" our God when "finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself", and presented the plan to others so that they could become like him, and all those who follow him and become Gods "are kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you” (as Joseph Smith taught).

There are plenty of other ways of understanding Joseph Smith's teachings than the way that you keep trying to present them.

Apropos to your point, the key phrase in the quotation from Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 is “whereby the rest could ADVANCE like unto himself,” which appears to contradict the idea of a self existing God who had no beginning; even a perfect being whom most Christians believe was always perfect without first having to engage in a dynamic experiential learning process that enabled him to become perfect (as did Christ) by learning obedience ‘by the things which he suffered.’ (Hebrews 5:8)

Please note that in the quoted verse it doesn’t say ‘whereby the rest could have the privilege to advance to become like himself.’ Rather it says “to advance like unto himself.”

In the scriptures, the meaning of the expression ‘like unto’ is: “(archaic, chiefly biblical, in adjective or adverb phrases that express resemblance) Like, similar to.”

Meanwhile, ‘to advance’ means “to move forward in a purposeful way.”

Therefore it it seems much more than likely that the Prophet Joseph Smith’s intended meaning (especially in light of the King Follett Discourse) is the Father desired that the imperfect spirits should mercifully be given to the opportunity to purposefully move forward in a holy process of spiritual growth in a manner similar to what he himself experienced on the way to his exaltation and eternal perfection.

Though it may be exceedingly difficult for fallen mortals to wrap their finite minds around the concept of the trying and testing self existent intelligences in a program of spiritual education and advancement that had no beginning and will never have an end, even so we are told that “there is no other way” to obtain spiritual mastery and perfection than to actively participate in divinely ordained tests and trials that “try men’s souls,” a sacred process of spiritual development and advancement that never had a beginning and will never have an end. Even for the great Jehovah himself it wasn’t enough for him to know all things intellectually, for Alma testifies that the only way he could save his people is for him to know all things experientially as the One who descended into the trenches of mortality and experienced firsthand an infinite and eternal sacrifice of spiritual, emotional, and physical suffering wherein he descended below all things. 

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. (Alma7)

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Apropos to your point, the key phrase in the quotation from Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 is “whereby the rest could ADVANCE like unto himself,” which appears to contradict the idea of a self existing God who had no beginning; even a perfect being whom most Christians believe was always perfect without first having to engage in a dynamic experiential learning process that enabled him to become perfect (as did Christ) by learning obedience ‘by the things which he suffered.’ (Hebrews 5:8)

Please note that in the quoted verse it doesn’t say ‘whereby the rest could have the privilege to advance to become like himself.’ Rather it says “to advance like unto himself.”

In the scriptures, the meaning of the expression ‘like unto’ is: “(archaic, chiefly biblical, in adjective or adverb phrases that express resemblance) Like, similar to.”

Meanwhile, ‘to advance’ means “to move forward in a purposeful way.”

Therefore it it seems much more than likely that the Prophet Joseph Smith’s intended meaning (especially in light of the King Follett Discourse) is the Father desired that the imperfect spirits should mercifully be given to the opportunity to purposefully move forward in a holy process of spiritual growth in a manner similar to what he himself experienced on the way to his exaltation and eternal perfection.

Though it may be exceedingly difficult for fallen mortals to wrap their finite minds around the concept of the trying and testing self existent intelligences in a program of spiritual education and advancement that had no beginning and will never have an end, even so we are told that “there is no other way” to obtain spiritual mastery and perfection than to actively participate in divinely ordained tests and trials that “try men’s souls,” a sacred process of spiritual development and advancement that never had a beginning and will never have an end. Even for the great Jehovah himself it wasn’t enough for him to know all things intellectually, for Alma testifies that the only way he could save his people is for him to know all things experientially as the One who descended into the trenches of mortality and experienced firsthand an infinite and eternal sacrifice of spiritual, emotional, and physical suffering wherein he descended below all things. 

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. (Alma7)

 

First, to be clear, I had three separate quotations in my post.  The first was quoting from Doctrine and Covenants 121:32, and the last two from the King Follet Discourse.  I can see from how I worded my post that I didn't make that entirely clear.

As for pointing out that the KFD says (as I quoted) "whereby the rest could ADVANCE like unto himself", I think you are making a distinction without a difference.  There is no question that God the Father advanced to where he is, and he wants us to be able to advance as well.  The point I was making is that scripture (and Joseph Smith) says that God the Father has always been the most advanced, and is thus the God over "all other gods" as Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 says, and that all the gods before us have become kings and priests "to God" in the same way (as Joseph Smith taught).

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/3/2025 at 1:52 PM, RevTestament said:

Please elucidate.

That is the current state of scholarship.  Israelite culture was Canaanite culture.  When we look at the Ugaritic (Canaanite) documents of the 2nd millennium BC, they clearly show that Ugaritic cult is a precursor to Israelite cult.  And we can even take that back further to Mari.

On 2/3/2025 at 1:52 PM, RevTestament said:

When will man learn to read what God has written? You fall into the same trap as the typical Christian apologists do... If this is correct, why did Yeshua quote it to His detractors for denouncing His saying He is the Son of God? Yet, the truth doesn't quite fit the current LDS narrative. It says what it means, which is why the Jews were the chosen people, and why BY was right about Adam being "god" or elohim if you will.... Nice to debate with you again BTW...  

 

Quote

 On 1/27/2025 at 5:10 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

That's my two cents. The idea that you can find LDS belief in the three thousand year old pre-Judaism religious views of Israel is a pipe dream.

Because you do not see it through Hebrew eyes, and so remain blind.... no offense.... It applies to just about everyone.

When I read Psalm 82 or Isaiah 14, I see Canaanite cult being referred to, and earthly, human egos being brought down to death, their divine pretensions being cut off at the nub.

However, one can simultaneously apply the understanding of Dan McClellan, “The Gods-Complaint: Psalm 82 as a Psalm of Complaint,” JBL, 137/4 (2018):833-851, online at https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.15699/jbl.1374.2018.452196 .

Or one can follow the Jewish midrashic tradition in Jesus' interpretation in John 10:34-36.

Edited February 5, 2025 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

From my lifetime experience, Earth was the last to be subjected to the Fall.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

From my lifetime experience, Earth was the last to be subjected to the Fall.

Funny coincidence, same thing with me!

[Mfbnew]

On 1/29/2025 at 8:37 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Edit - I am not saying that we can't or shouldn't read the Psalms in the context of our current theology. We can certainly liken the scriptures unto ourselves. The issue is that we shouldn't then project that interpretation back on to the ancient texts and their authors and their first readers. Our readings would not make any sense to them.

Yes, to me this is the entire point of Restoration- the "translation" (if "correct") of doctrine into 1830 culture- and the problem we presently have come to a point where the Restoration needs a little dusting off and "translation" from 1830 culture into 2030 culture without losing any of the 1830 CONCEPTS- but PRESENTING them to our culture today.

Banning certain races from the priesthood today is unthinkable.  In my opinion calling ourselves "Mormons" today is also unthinkable- before I studied the church doctrine I thought that Mormons worshiped Native Americans as "Saints" who were worshiped by this odd Utah cult.  "Mormon" is a word without any link whatsoever to convey the basic notion that we are even "Christians".

Polygamy in a Christian church today?   Imo there is no way such a concept could be justified- yet I understand why it was practiced 200 years ago.

President Nelson has worked wonders-but there is still much to be done-not to CHANGE doctrine, but to the see it with contemporary eyes. 

Just as I think that the church needs to become friendly to postmodernism, we need to become friendly to the idea that we are also "Postmormon" members of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Can you imagine the response of the Anti Defamation League standing for a Broadway play making fun of Judaism?   Or a TV show about "The Jewish Wives of New York?"

Turning the cheek is one thing- but allowing outright defamation of a particular religion should not go without comment!

Edited February 8, 2025 by Mfbnew

[Mfbnew]

On 2/5/2025 at 6:27 AM, CV75 said:

From my lifetime experience, Earth was the last to be subjected to the Fall.

From my view, my "lifetime experience" will end long before that anyway.

Them other folks will be have enough to take care of for themselves.  😜   Ain't none of my business nohow. 

[RevTestament]

On 2/4/2025 at 7:02 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

That is the current state of scholarship.  Israelite culture was Canaanite culture.  When we look at the Ugaritic (Canaanite) documents of the 2nd millennium BC, they clearly show that Ugaritic cult is a precursor to Israelite cult.  And we can even take that back further to Mari.

I agree with this to some extent. Abraham clearly did not arrive in an empty land, but a land full of Canaanite cultures. Abraham spoke a semitic language, and the Canaanites spoke a Canaanite/Semitic language. Uragit was a leading city at that time, and Hebrew roots can be clearly seen in Ugaritic. Once the alphabet was introduced, it clearly spread quickly through the Canaanites. But to identify Yehovah with Ba'al, I believe is error. Abraham knew God by a reduced form of El. There were many versions of El. Ba'al was one, but that doesn't mean that verbiage referred to the same entity as El Elyon. Claiming that Elyon was the same God as the corrupted Canaanite Ba'al doesn't necessarily follow, when the El title dates back into the Akkadian languages - Amorites, etc. That is somewhat like claiming our worship of God, is the same as the early Germanic  worship of Gott. Do you worship Gott?

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I agree with this to some extent. Abraham clearly did not arrive in an empty land, but a land full of Canaanite cultures. Abraham spoke a semitic language, and the Canaanites spoke a Canaanite/Semitic language. Uragit was a leading city at that time, and Hebrew roots can be clearly seen in Ugaritic. Once the alphabet was introduced, it clearly spread quickly through the Canaanites. But to identify Yehovah with Ba'al, I believe is error. Abraham knew God by a reduced form of El. There were many versions of El. Ba'al was one, but that doesn't mean that verbiage referred to the same entity as El Elyon. Claiming that Elyon was the same God as the corrupted Canaanite Ba'al doesn't necessarily follow, when the El title dates back into the Akkadian languages - Amorites, etc. That is somewhat like claiming our worship of God, is the same as the early Germanic  worship of Gott. Do you worship Gott?

Both Baˁal-Hadad and YHWH are termed "Cloud-Rider" (Psalm 68:4 [MT 68:5]; cf. Daniel 7:13), both dwell in Mt Ṣafon (Psalms 29:3,10, 48:2 [MT 48:3], Isaiah 14:13), both destroy the great Dragon, or Sea (Psalm 74:12-15, Isaiah 27:1, Job 7:12), and both arrive in a great thunderstorm, with seven thunders or seven lightnings (Psalm 29:3-9; KTU 1.101.3-4 = Ugaritica V.3.3-4) – all discussed by John Day in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, I:548-549.

Moreover, at Ugarit in the 2nd millennium BC, the local liturgy included the New Year celebration in Sept/Oct, followed by a national Great Atonement Rite, which del Olmo Lete describes as "a sort of Canaanite yôm kippûr "  This was followed by booths built on roofs, same as at Israelite Sukkot.  G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed. (Münster: Ugarit-Verlag, 2014).

Nibley's argument for the antiquity of such rites needs to be taken seriously, even though it makes orthodox Jews very uncomfortable (they insist that it all begins with Moses in the Wilderness).  It is very hard for them to imagine that Ba'al-Hadad and YHWH are sons of El, and that Israelites were not monotheists.  Why are figurines of Asherah found by archeologists in so many Israelite homes?  Why do inscriptions portray "Yahweh and his Asherah"?

[The Nehor]

On 2/3/2025 at 10:26 PM, rodheadlee said:

This Thread reminds me of Lynn Hilton and the Kolob Theorem. I am very uneducated but it sounds to me like it's a very doable theorem. I believe the premises is Jesus Christ is the God of our galaxy or will be the God of our galaxy after He hands it over to his Father after completing the work. I believe it also proposes that each galaxy has its own God and they are aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters of our God. The closer to the center of the Galaxy your planet is the closer to Kolob you are and you are in a higher  Realm.

Also the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob on the Blinking of an Eye" has to do with this.

 

Calling it a theorem/theory is an abuse of science. It is at best a hypothesis.

I read the book. The author takes a statement from what a prophet says, backfills it with conjecture, assumes those conjectures are accurate, and then builds more conjectures on top of it.

The author’s understanding of astronomy is abysmal. The book was written in 2012 but when it cites astronomy books to back up the book’s ideas it cites books from the 50s and 60s. Our understanding of astronomy has experienced multiple major shifts since then.

The conclusions don’t make much sense either. There are invented dust clouds dividing galaxies into degrees of glory.

This book reminded me of some of the medieval books where bored priests based on nothing but guesswork started ranking all the heavenly hosts and listing angel names and working out the entire hierarchy of heaven. It is scriptural fan fiction.

[RevTestament]

You are attempting to skilfully avoid answering my question. No culture has ever appeared out of a vacuum. I view this somewhat how I view our own restored Church. Do we worship the same God as the early Germanic peoples? They still use the word Gott, but now it has more generic overtones, and can apply to any gott - just as el can. Even God called the other gods and idols elohim. However, if someone were to ask me if I worship the gott of Gaul, I would say no.

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nibley's argument for the antiquity of such rites needs to be taken seriously, even though it makes orthodox Jews very uncomfortable (they insist that it all begins with Moses in the Wilderness).  It is very hard for them to imagine that Ba'al-Hadad and YHWH are sons of El, and that Israelites were not monotheists.  Why are figurines of Asherah found by archeologists in so many Israelite homes?  Why do inscriptions portray "Yahweh and his Asherah"?

I do not believe that early Israel was monotheist in the way that modern society uses the word. Religion has never really seen multiple beings as being one God - that is largely a foreign concept as far as I can tell. I believe the true nature of YHVH Elohim has failed to be understood by Israel for the most part, and then later by the state Church. John clearly understood it as manifested by John 1, but I of course am not going to argue the point that the early Israelites often and repeatedly adopted Canaanite practices such as worshipping Asherah and idols. John clearly understood that Yeshua was YHVH Elohim with the Father. They are both YHVH Elohim... hence the plural of Eloah being used with the plural verb in Genesis. Both the Father and the Son speak as YHVH Elohim in various places of the OT since they are the YHVH of the Elohim. If you want to maintain that is polytheist, I can't stop you, but Yeshua clearly felt they were one, and the Father seemed to give Him His power even with His bold claims... So either they are one Elohim or they are not beginning with Genesis 2. Did other Canaanite religions have their own Elyon, most High? Apparently. That doesn't mean they worshipped Him in truth or understood the true nature of God... He does seem to be rather subtle about these things... Now when Christians say that I do not worship their Jesus, I typically think they are correct. They worship a very incomplete Jesus... one who is eternally begotten and cannot change to be the Father... since that is in conflict with the doctrines of the Trinity which says the Son is not the Father and cannot change. They are not doing His work to help Him inherit His kingdom, because they do not understand His calling, but actually fight against it. The "Orthodox" Jesus is not the sriptural Jesus, whom I worship. So, yes, they may have the same name, but are different in significant ways.... It is something like the Arabic Allah. Christians will say they worship Allah, but not the Allah of the Quran....   Now can a name/title be hijacked? That has been happening for some 1400 years now... Satan has been doing this for a long time.... Peace.

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You are attempting to skilfully avoid answering my question. No culture has ever appeared out of a vacuum. I view this somewhat how I view our own restored Church. Do we worship the same God as the early Germanic peoples? They still use the word Gott, but now it has more generic overtones, and can apply to any gott - just as el can. Even God called the other gods and idols elohim. However, if someone were to ask me if I worship the gott of Gaul, I would say no.

I do not believe that early Israel was monotheist in the way that modern society uses the word. Religion has never really seen multiple beings as being one God - that is largely a foreign concept as far as I can tell. I believe the true nature of YHVH Elohim has failed to be understood by Israel for the most part, and then later by the state Church. John clearly understood it as manifested by John 1, but I of course am not going to argue the point that the early Israelites often and repeatedly adopted Canaanite practices such as worshipping Asherah and idols. John clearly understood that Yeshua was YHVH Elohim with the Father. They are both YHVH Elohim... hence the plural of Eloah being used with the plural verb in Genesis. Both the Father and the Son speak as YHVH Elohim in various places of the OT since they are the YHVH of the Elohim. If you want to maintain that is polytheist, I can't stop you, but Yeshua clearly felt they were one, and the Father seemed to give Him His power even with His bold claims... So either they are one Elohim or they are not beginning with Genesis 2. Did other Canaanite religions have their own Elyon, most High? Apparently. That doesn't mean they worshipped Him in truth or understood the true nature of God... He does seem to be rather subtle about these things... Now when Christians say that I do not worship their Jesus, I typically think they are correct. They worship a very incomplete Jesus... one who is eternally begotten and cannot change to be the Father... since that is in conflict with the doctrines of the Trinity which says the Son is not the Father and cannot change. They are not doing His work to help Him inherit His kingdom, because they do not understand His calling, but actually fight against it. The "Orthodox" Jesus is not the sriptural Jesus, whom I worship. So, yes, they may have the same name, but are different in significant ways.... It is something like the Arabic Allah. Christians will say they worship Allah, but not the Allah of the Quran....   Now can a name/title be hijacked? That has been happening for some 1400 years now... Satan has been doing this for a long time.... Peace.

The problem of rampant denominationalism is that everyone has his own interpretation of "God," and all that entails.  The Restoration opts for the unifying power of a living prophet and the Holy Spirit.  Roman Catholicism applies both a living pope and the traditional sacred deposit of the faith.

Terms like "God" "Yahweh" and "Elohim" are actually titles and not names, so they tend to be fluid and applicable to whomever is playing the role at the moment.  Israelites were Canaanites.  They spoke Canaanite, lived the same way other Canaanites lived -- shared a culture in common.  So, were they at all different than their fellow Canaanites.  Yes, and in the same way that Latter-day Saints are different than their fellow Americans.  Surface impressions can easily mislead, because down deep there are crucial differences.

Thousands of years before the Israelites come on the scene, we have already the basic features of biblical religion:  Creation stories, the Great Flood, etc., from which the later biblical accounts are clearly derivative.  There is literally nothing new under the sun.

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 3/27/2025 at 1:58 PM, RevTestament said:

You are attempting to skilfully avoid answering my question. No culture has ever appeared out of a vacuum. I view this somewhat how I view our own restored Church. Do we worship the same God as the early Germanic peoples? They still use the word Gott, but now it has more generic overtones, and can apply to any gott - just as el can. Even God called the other gods and idols elohim. However, if someone were to ask me if I worship the gott of Gaul, I would say no.

I do not believe that early Israel was monotheist in the way that modern society uses the word. Religion has never really seen multiple beings as being one God - that is largely a foreign concept as far as I can tell. I believe the true nature of YHVH Elohim has failed to be understood by Israel for the most part, and then later by the state Church. John clearly understood it as manifested by John 1, but I of course am not going to argue the point that the early Israelites often and repeatedly adopted Canaanite practices such as worshipping Asherah and idols. John clearly understood that Yeshua was YHVH Elohim with the Father. They are both YHVH Elohim... hence the plural of Eloah being used with the plural verb in Genesis. Both the Father and the Son speak as YHVH Elohim in various places of the OT since they are the YHVH of the Elohim. If you want to maintain that is polytheist, I can't stop you, but Yeshua clearly felt they were one, and the Father seemed to give Him His power even with His bold claims... So either they are one Elohim or they are not beginning with Genesis 2. Did other Canaanite religions have their own Elyon, most High? Apparently. That doesn't mean they worshipped Him in truth or understood the true nature of God... He does seem to be rather subtle about these things... Now when Christians say that I do not worship their Jesus, I typically think they are correct. They worship a very incomplete Jesus... one who is eternally begotten and cannot change to be the Father... since that is in conflict with the doctrines of the Trinity which says the Son is not the Father and cannot change. They are not doing His work to help Him inherit His kingdom, because they do not understand His calling, but actually fight against it. The "Orthodox" Jesus is not the sriptural Jesus, whom I worship. So, yes, they may have the same name, but are different in significant ways.... It is something like the Arabic Allah. Christians will say they worship Allah, but not the Allah of the Quran....   Now can a name/title be hijacked? That has been happening for some 1400 years now... Satan has been doing this for a long time.... Peace.

Ammon told Lamoni that the Great Sprit in whom they believed was God.

Isn't that the same thing?

Edited March 28, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[CV75]

If the earth is flat it cannot Fall.

[Stargazer]

On 1/13/2025 at 8:36 PM, marineland said:

I made a comment to @longview a few days ago but the thread was closed to further
replies so a followup could not be posted - so I create a new topic to continue that discussion.

On 01/07/2025, you said
 

Regarding your reason #3 - if God had imposed the punishment too soon then NOT 
all the earths would have been influenced into making the FALL"

Earlier you said, "Lucifer is stunned and rages at God saying: "Why am I being 
punished for doing the same things as on other worlds?"

Those supposed words of Lucifer implies he had already initiated the Fall on all 
the other worlds and "our Earth" is possibly the last in the series.  Or that 
disobedience on all these other worlds were punished after the fact (years, decades, 
or centuries later) and then those Adams and Eves would have need to be reminded of 
why they were waiting all this time for being expelled from their Gardens.

The Fall on earth #1 did not influence the Fall on earth #2 and so forth. The 
idea that Lucifer being punished on "our Earth" would not have caused him to also 
lead the respective Adams and Eves on all the earths created before and after "our 
Earth" is not in line with his character.

It would also lead one to believe Adam and Eve being led to eat from the forbidden
tree on "our Earth" is a punishment for Adam and Eve (Alma 42) whereas the same 
actions on all the other earths (before "our Earth") were not but the earths after
"our Earth" were.

Maybe all these other worlds have their own version of the second article of faith:

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s 
transgression".

Regarding your reason #4 - because ALL of the earths made the critical step for the 
FALL, then could God finally impose the punishment on Lucifer.

There is nothing in scripture to indicate the one and only punishment for Lucifer 
was for his causing the Fall on "our Earth".

Somewhere I read that LDS prophets and apostles have also spoken about other worlds 
created by Heavenly Father. President Brigham Young and Elder Neal A. Maxwell 
discussed the vastness of God's creations, including worlds that have fulfilled 
their purpose and entered into their celestial state.

So here we have the potential for other earths before "our Earth" who have already
entered their celestial state even before Lucifer is punished on "our Earth".

Their entering a celestial state before "our Earth" is not possible because according
to your reason #3, God had not yet imposed the punishment on them (mortality) but 
they had still been influenced into making the Fall without being influenced by all 
the other earths.

I'm getting to this very late in the game, and don't have time to go through all the responses, so no doubt someone has pointed out the following:

In the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, Moses and God have a conversation in which Moses asks Him about the universe. The conversation includes the whole of chapter 1. Read all of it for the complete context: Moses 1

In pertinent part, it goes as follows:

1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.
3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease...
27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God.
28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.
29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Beyond this statement in Moses of there being other earths, and other Adams, we have no further information. All else of what you quoted from @longview , which varies from or adds to this is speculation. Was there more than one Satan? No information. The quotation which suggests more than one, where Lucifer is said to ask "Why am I being punished for doing the same things as on other worlds?" is liturgy, not doctrine. But I suppose it might be correct; it seems reasonable. Why not one Lucifer per planet instead of a universal Lucifer? Surely God can find enough candidates for the position, or rather, candidates will present themselves from among the prospective intelligences/spirits to be assigned to each earth.

One thing may be at least somewhat doctrinal, but I cannot be sure, and that is the idea, in my memory once taught, that our earth is the most wicked, and that is why Christ was sent here. Because only we were so wicked that we could kill the Son of God. The scripture that suggests this is Moses 7:36. This was discussed on this board 13 years ago, back in 2012. @Peppermint Patty began the discussion here: Is Earth Really The Most Wicked Of God'S Creations?

As for the idea that our earth was the last to be subjected to the Fall, that cannot stand, for God tells Moses that "there is no end to my works." I could say that since we are described to be "in the meridian of Time," that there will be 13.6 billion more years in this universe (we being at the halfway point) before the end of God's purposes in this universe is reached. And then He can create another universe! But that is just my speculation. 

@Robert F. Smith says in a post near the beginning of the thread that there may be more than one Savior: one per earth. Given that in verse 32 above God says this: "And by the word of my power, have I created them [meaning all the other earths], which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth," there is only one "word of [his] power." 

But this is all we are going to get. So far, anyway. As God says in verse 31, "Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me." It's fun to speculate, of course, but it can distract us from what is truly important, which is the pure doctrine of Christ, and our need for His grace. 

[marineland]

On 4/1/2025 at 8:29 PM, Stargazer said:

One thing may be at least somewhat doctrinal, but I cannot be sure, and that is the idea, in my memory once taught, that our earth is the most wicked, and that is why Christ was sent here.

Or that the Jews were the most wicked people on earth, who would crucify their 
God.

"Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ -- for 
in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name -- should 
come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and 
they shall crucify him -- for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other 
nation on earth that would crucify their God" (2 Nephi 10:3).

[JVW]

On 3/30/2025 at 10:54 AM, CV75 said:

If the earth is flat it cannot Fall.

It could flip though, like a coin.

[Stargazer]

44 minutes ago, marineland said:

Or that the Jews were the most wicked people on earth, who would crucify their 
God.

"Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ -- for 
in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name -- should 
come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and 
they shall crucify him -- for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other 
nation on earth that would crucify their God" (2 Nephi 10:3).

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this earth is the most wicked of all of Father's earths. It might be arguable, or inferable, but that's all. IMHO.

The thing is, Jesus himself said that if he had performed the miracles among the pagans which he performed among the Jews, they would have repented:

Matthew 11:21 -> "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

This supports 2 Nephi 10:3 rather emphatically.

One of the reasons why Jesus was not recognized as the Messiah in his time was not strictly the fault of his contemporaries among the leaders of the Jews. The Book of Mormon states that many "plain and precious things" were removed from the scriptures (OT). This likely occurred during the time of Josiah's reforms. 

A recently book that discusses some of this is "The Key to the Keystone: How Apocryphal Texts Unlock the Book of Mormon's Brass Plates" by Jonah Barnes, published by Plain and Precious Publishing.

In case you're interested, there's a discussion of this book in the thread where I posted this: 

 

[Mark Beesley]

Have not read the entire thread. Perhaps these points have been articulated.

Adam and Eve’s temptation in the Garden occurred after God had said He was going away for a while, but would return with further instructions. What were those further instructions going to be?

i believe the Lord would have returned to instruct Adam and Eve regarding the Tree, mortality, etc., as had been done on other worlds before. But Lucifer intervened, thinking he could disrupt the Plan. Adam and Eve’s transgression was in taking the fruit from Lucifer rather than from God.

[ZealouslyStriving]

50 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

Have not read the entire thread. Perhaps these points have been articulated.

Adam and Eve’s temptation in the Garden occurred after God had said He was going away for a while, but would return with further instructions. What were those further instructions going to be?

i believe the Lord would have returned to instruct Adam and Eve regarding the Tree, mortality, etc., as had been done on other worlds before. But Lucifer intervened, thinking he could disrupt the Plan. Adam and Eve’s transgression was in taking the fruit from Lucifer rather than from God.

The Endowment does seem to hint at something different happening here than on other worlds.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, longview said:

There was an extensive discussion on this topic in a thread previous to this thread. I have tried to find that thread but my use of the site: command is not working for me. Maybe someone here can help find it.

Marineland links to a thread in the OP of this thread, I do not know what you consider the beginning of that conversation.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/76227-fyi-on-lds-creationismevolution-history/page/9/#findComment-1210206824