Peppermint Patty Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Moses 7:36Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. I'm sure that many of you who have grown up in the Church have been taught either in Sunday School or Seminary that this Earth is the most wicked of God's creations, and that we were the only planet capable of crucifying the Savior.We know that God's creations are "without number" and there are literally trillions and trillions of planets in the Universe. Do we really live on the most wicked planet? If so, what does this mean? Is this just a myth? Did we do something in the pre-existence to merit coming to this planet? Is it an honor, just chance, or maybe a punishment? Does this notion come from Moses 7:36?Just curious about everyone's thoughts.
Calm Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Does there have to be a "most wicked" creation? If so, then someone has to live on it. 2
RadioFreeDeath Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 On one hand Christ might have been referring specifically to his creations on earth. On the other hand it would make the most sense for Christ to come to the most wicked of his creations. What greater way to show the power of the atonement than to atone in that place most wicked and save it as well. 1
volgadon Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Perhaps I am being cryptic, but I suggest reading Screwtape Proposes a Toast.
Calm Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) I got it, volga.You can read it online, btw:https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2wYIyq7O07sJ:staff.tuhsd.k12.az.us/medel/screwtape.pdf+screwtape+proposes+a+toast+pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi4KrsHg0-0weDWXFG3Wf5S9CVqPMo5YcJXb5l-q59v_Sf7Ch0qKdC-D56MPNwifbsh3kgZiJjgJVk6YVL8wsKuYmaYZROAS06xX_uNXlKGRLZwJr3I1mhO2hX4o20YVL3grs0l&sig=AHIEtbR5PlqJc3P8OfhlNczLKv82jgklzw Edited April 22, 2012 by calmoriah 1
Peppermint Patty Posted April 22, 2012 Author Posted April 22, 2012 Perhaps I am being cryptic, but I suggest reading Screwtape Proposes a Toast.Screwtape Proposes a Toast:For democracy in the diabolical sense leads to a nation without great men and women. It has a value as a state of mind, excluding humility, charity, contentment, and all the pleasures of gratitude or admiration. It is our function to encourage the behaviour, the manners, the whole attitude of mind, which democracies naturally like and enjoy, because these are the very things which, if unchecked, will destroy democracy. You would almost wonder that even humans don’t see it themselves”.Is this what you are referring to, Volgadon?
Log Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) FWIW, while it is easily, and perhaps properly, taken to mean the contemporaries of Enoch were the worst of all of God's infinite creations, I believe the presumptive context of God's statement is with reference to this world alone, and that the creations referred to pertain to this sphere.I believe this because God so limited his discussion with Moses (Moses 1:35). Not the strongest of arguments, I realize. Edited April 22, 2012 by Log 1
zelder Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 I think that it could indeed be true that earth is the most wicked. I feel like I have been blessed with a very sheltered life. The horrors that exist and have existed on this world have been almost unbearable for me to think about at times. It's actually a happy thought for me to believe that this is as bad as it gets. Thank God! 1
volgadon Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Screwtape Proposes a Toast:Is this what you are referring to, Volgadon?No. I refer to the bit about the advantage of mediocre souls over the Hitlers and such of this world.
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 And yetJiohn 3:16Forr God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Peppermint Patty Posted April 22, 2012 Author Posted April 22, 2012 And yetJiohn 3:16Forr God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Has anyone ever thought of how different the Scriptures might be on another world? The Scriptures elsewhere might mention the Savior being born on another world called Earth, that was so evil that they crucified Him. I imagine that Earth might be the subject of much debate, discussion, scorn and ridicule on other worlds. 1
theplains Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 I'm sure that many of you who have grown up in the Church have been taught either in Sunday School or Seminary that this Earth is the most wicked of God's creations, and that we were the only planet capable of crucifying the Savior.I looked at that verse you quoted but it does not seem to have an entire planet as its context. 2 Nephi 10:3 says a similar thing about the Jews. "for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nationon earth that would crucify their God". I don't agree with this however. If Jesus had instead come to anothercountry under the control of the Roman Empire, they would have crucified him there too.Regards,Jim
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) Moses 7:36I'm sure that many of you who have grown up in the Church have been taught either in Sunday School or Seminary that this Earth is the most wicked of God's creations, and that we were the only planet capable of crucifying the Savior.We know that God's creations are "without number" and there are literally trillions and trillions of planets in the Universe. Do we really live on the most wicked planet? If so, what does this mean? Is this just a myth? Did we do something in the pre-existence to merit coming to this planet? Is it an honor, just chance, or maybe a punishment? Does this notion come from Moses 7:36?Just curious about everyone's thoughts.You are reading that verse in isolation, and not considering the context. That particular verse refers to the antediluvian sinners who were destroyed in the Flood. They received a just reward for their sins. Later on in the chapter, it goes on to describe the condition of the earth in subsequent history, that they also became very wicked; but there is a silver lining in the cloud. There was also another group who were righteous, and formed a true Zion, which eventually triumphed into the Millenium. (In the days of Enoch also there was the same division, except that Zion was translated, while the wicked perished in the Flood.) The overall message that comes across is not that this world is the wickedest place in the universe; but that it houses the wickedest as well as the most valiant spirits that God has created. According to the law "oppositions," maximum wickedness is counterbalanced with maximum righteousness. So you try to be righteous, and you can rejoice for being among the most righteous spirits that God has created.Jesus was the most righteous, and He chose to be born on this world to suffer and die, and perform the Atonement. But He couldn't do everything by Himself. He needed a group of companions to make everything possible, and carry out His work after Him, who needed to be exceedingly righteous and valiant like Himself. So if you look at the filled half of the glass rather than the empty half, you might just as well argue that this world is the most righteous of all of Gd's creations; and we can have more reasons to rejoice than the rest of God's universal creation. Edited April 22, 2012 by zerinus
LDS_RM Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) subsequent verses are clear that God is talking about human beings, particularly those that were killed in the flood of Noah. Edited April 22, 2012 by LDS_RM
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Peppermint Patty:While other worlds exist. We can see them with our telescopes. We know nothing, or next to nothing, about any life on them. So any speculation of mine about people on them is at best premature and probably wrong to begin with. 1
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 Peppermint Patty:While other worlds exist. We can see them with our telescopes. We know nothing, or next to nothing, about any life on them. So any speculation of mine about people on them is at best premature and probably wrong to begin with.From the LDS point of view, life on other planets is not speculation, but revealed truth.
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 zerinus:Now all you have to do is prove it to the nonSaints.
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 zerinus:Now all you have to do is prove it to the nonSaints.I don't need to; why should I?
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 One can believe the moon is made of green cheese. But until it is proved to more just than the green cheese lovers. It is best to leave it the realm of religion.
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) One can believe the moon is made of green cheese. But until it is proved to more just than the green cheese lovers. It is best to leave it the realm of religion.It is "in the realm of religion" as far as I am concerned. I have no need to "prove" to anybody that there is life on other planets, any more than I need to "prove" that Jesus was the Son of God, or that Moses parted the Red Sea. But that does not make it any less real for me. You seem to think that certainty can only exist outside of the "realm of religion". To you that may be the case, but no to me. Edited April 22, 2012 by zerinus
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 I have no problem with men on other earths, Jesus as the Christ, or Moses parting the Reed Sea, as beliefs. It works for me. What I do have a problem with is trying to prove it in reality. Reality has a nasty habit of bitting us on our butts.
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 I have no problem with men on other earths, Jesus as the Christ, or Moses parting the Reed Sea, as beliefs. It works for me. What I do have a problem with is trying to prove it in reality. Reality has a nasty habit of bitting us on our butts.,As far as I am concerned, it is "proven in reality," though it may not be to you. I don't feel I have an obligation to "prove" it to anybody else. I don't know why you think that I do.
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 You have a weird sense of reality, but then I do to, just in a different way. To each their own.
zerinus Posted April 22, 2012 Posted April 22, 2012 You have a weird sense of reality, but then I do to, just in a different way. To each their own.I was going to say the same about you. Funny how it works both ways.
MattN Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 My personal opinion is that since this is the world that Christ would come to, it's the world where Satan tries the hardest. There's an opposition in all things. Think of Newton's law of an equal and opposite reaction. Christ came to this world, so Satan would focus more on this earth than the other ones.
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