Church members who leave the church

[Stargazer]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:31 AM, Peacefully said:

It really bugs me when it is assumed that people who step away from the church are just doing it so they can party and fornicate. It is so dismissive of the real issues people have with the church. We need to leave that old trope behind. 

My nephew stepped away from the church because he liked alcohol too much. 

But he's coming back now, so... perhaps the alcohol wasn't as important as he thought it was.

[Stargazer]

It seems that most members who leave just stop participating, but a few are of stronger mettle and actually have their names removed from the records. Actually, their names are still kept in the database just in case they want to come back. This is because they have to go through some extra hoops before they can become re-baptized. 

I am personally acquainted with only two members who left formally via name-removal and who came back. The first one was a sister who went back to Catholicism because she felt that her now-deceased parents would have liked her to. But she said that Catholicism just didn't have the spirit she was familiar with from her LDS membership. So she came back. She and her husband had been inactive in the church for a long time, incidentally. But when she had her name removed, oddly enough he re-activated and started attending again. When she came back, they finally got sealed in the temple. They were quite elderly by this time, and I assume they've now both passed away -- they moved from my old ward, so I didn't see the end of their story.

The other one is in my current ward. I wish I knew why she left in the first place, but I don't. I am also uncertain why she came back. Perhaps I will ask her.

[Snodgrassian]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

 

It seems that most members who leave just stop participating, but a few are of stronger mettle and actually have their names removed from the records.

 

@Dario_M

the above quote is a perfect example of how some active members talk about those who have lost their faith and why things can get contentious. Just remember that some of the negative traits you have mentioned on this thread go both ways. 

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Well...i haven't left the church or didn't do anything horible. But my family, my parents are still really angry and judgemental towards me. 

I wish i would have been grew up in a lovingly healthy loving mormon family instead of my own parents who could be loving some times though. But they also had a really nasty side. They where angry, frustrated, and dissatisfied with everything they had including their children. In my childhood i've aften been beaten up by me dad. Experienced a lot of tension. My parents fight a lot. And on a later age they where judgemental against me. Unwelcome and so negative that i really harmed me. Clearly...they didn't liked me the way i was. And eventually they left me alone. And now i don't have contact with them anymore. No single member of my family btw... and i know i never seen them ever again. There is not much compassion and love left for me. Not if it's up to my family anyway. 

So sorry you had such a difficult childhood.  Unfortunately there is no required training to be a parent.  But I will say this.  Growing up in a strong Mormon family does not insure that your parents  and family will be loving and kind to you.  I grew up in a very strong Mormon family.  Everything was great until I came out to. them and told them I was gay.  I was never invited to any family activity, reunion, wedding, baptism, Christmas dinner again for 13 years.  That was very difficult.  Because of that, I can at least feel a little about what you have been going through with your family.

You just have to find your own family.  A group of friends that will love you for who you are, and not who they want you to be.  I have been very fortunate to find that kind of support and love.  None of that came from the Mormon Church however.  Pretty much all but a handful of who I thought were friends that were Mormon never talked to me again.  

I am also lucky to find a man who loves me and supports me and shares my life with me.  I am happier than I have ever been at any point in my life.  For me, it was better to be honest about who I really am than those years of pretending to be straight just to fit into what my family and Church thought I should be.  I have never regretted taking the necessary steps to leave the Mormon Church.  And honestly, I feel closer to Christ than I ever have when I was in the Church, because the Church always made me feel unworthy of His love.  I do believe that Christ also loves me and I am just where he wants me to be. I have learned that a Church has nothing to do with your relationship with Christ, or at least it shouldn't.  

I am happy. that you have found a place in the Church.  But I have to say, being gay and having a partner is going to be very difficult to navigate that path.  I wish you the best of luck.  

[Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

@Dario_M

the above quote is a perfect example of how some active members talk about those who have lost their faith and why things can get contentious. Just remember that some of the negative traits you have mentioned on this thread go both ways. 

I don't think I was talking negatively about those who have lost their faith. Yes, I mentioned that my nephew went inactive partly because he liked drinking alcohol. But he never lost his faith; he just put it on the back burner. And now it's back on the front burner. I myself was inactive for a few years long time ago, but only because I was the only member in my family, and at age 15 and 16 didn't have a means to get to church on Sundays -- or didn't make it a priority. I never lost my faith, and kept the commandments for the most part (didn't pay tithing). 

The vast majority of people who stay away from church do so not because of negative traits, but because of a whole host of other reasons, including just having other priorities. Some just stop believing, which isn't a negative trait. Most of my own children who are inactive still claim to their friends that they're believing Mormons, even as they drink beer with them.

[let’s roll]

My belief is that the incremental value of the Church over all other well-intentioned and sincere tribal/community entities (regardless of whether the entity represents itself as a social, charitable, or religious organization) is as a catalyst and support system for one to come to know Deity and continue to increase in that knowledge and as a facilitator for disciples as they try to more fully live the two great commandments.

I don’t think I would see much of a reason to affiliate with and actively participate in the Church rather than the Rotary Club or the Sierra Club if my participation hadn’t led to both a faith in, and experiences with, Deity.  Religion should have an eternal outlook and benefit and, since life eternal is defined as knowing God and Christ, it is logical that those who haven’t found that benefit struggle with justifying continuing to invest time in Church membership.

I treasure the friendships and relationships in my life that have bloomed as a result of my Church activity, but I understand that those could have blossomed within any number of different community activities.  That said, my most treasured experiences in the Church have been in inviting others to come to know Deity, in assisting them in their efforts to do so, and rejoicing with them as they share their experiences of communing with the Divine.

I appreciate the candor and openness of those on this board who struggle to find value in their relationship with the Church and wish them Godspeed.

 

[Frank11]

44 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The vast majority of people who stay away from church do so not because of negative traits, but because of a whole host of other reasons, including just having other priorities.

None of my LDS acquaintances really know why I'm inactive, and if you were in my congregation, you'd think the same thing about me that you wrote. I could very easily justify it with the partially repugnant history and bigotry, but out of consideration for the dear friends I've known and respected for decades, I won't say anything specific. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It seems that most members who leave just stop participating, but a few are of stronger mettle and actually have their names removed from the records.

You just really cannot tell who has stronger mettle only on if someone removes their name or not. It ignores time spent in the church, maturity, family connections, spiritural prompting, financial situations, doctrinal understanding, and so much more. Every situation is unique.

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Actually, their names are still kept in the database just in case they want to come back. This is because they have to go through some extra hoops before they can become re-baptized. 

Not necessarily true.  I know of one situation this does not fit, but it is not my story to tell.

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I am personally acquainted with only two members who left formally via name-removal and who came back. The first one was a sister who went back to Catholicism because she felt that her now-deceased parents would have liked her to. But she said that Catholicism just didn't have the spirit she was familiar with from her LDS membership. So she came back. She and her husband had been inactive in the church for a long time, incidentally. But when she had her name removed, oddly enough he re-activated and started attending again. When she came back, they finally got sealed in the temple. They were quite elderly by this time, and I assume they've now both passed away -- they moved from my old ward, so I didn't see the end of their story.

The other one is in my current ward. I wish I knew why she left in the first place, but I don't. I am also uncertain why she came back. Perhaps I will ask her.

 

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

Sorry, but you don't get to tell us how to grieve the loss of our lifelong faith, our identity, and in too many cases, our friends and family. What you are showing is a complete lack of empathy.

Well i don't think that i have lack of empathy. And you can also grieve without attacking....me right now. 😞

Edited September 19, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

My nephew stepped away from the church because he liked alcohol too much. 

But he's coming back now, so... perhaps the alcohol wasn't as important as he thought it was.

Did he say that was why or was that your interpretation?  If the latter or maybe even the former, maybe it wasn’t the alcohol, but something else that happened to occur when alcohol was present…such as him feeling more comfortable socially. 

[Dario_M]

4 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

@Dario_M

the above quote is a perfect example of how some active members talk about those who have lost their faith and why things can get contentious. Just remember that some of the negative traits you have mentioned on this thread go both ways. 

I try to be as nice as possible. Also because i don't wanna go against the rules of this board and get banned. So.. i treath everyone with respect on here. 

[Dario_M]

4 hours ago, let’s roll said:

My belief is that the incremental value of the Church over all other well-intentioned and sincere tribal/community entities (regardless of whether the entity represents itself as a social, charitable, or religious organization) is as a catalyst and support system for one to come to know Deity and continue to increase in that knowledge and as a facilitator for disciples as they try to more fully live the two great commandments.

I don’t think I would see much of a reason to affiliate with and actively participate in the Church rather than the Rotary Club or the Sierra Club if my participation hadn’t led to both a faith in, and experiences with, Deity.  Religion should have an eternal outlook and benefit and, since life eternal is defined as knowing God and Christ, it is logical that those who haven’t found that benefit struggle with justifying continuing to invest time in Church membership.

I treasure the friendships and relationships in my life that have bloomed as a result of my Church activity, but I understand that those could have blossomed within any number of different community activities.  That said, my most treasured experiences in the Church have been in inviting others to come to know Deity, in assisting them in their efforts to do so, and rejoicing with them as they share their experiences of communing with the Divine.

I appreciate the candor and openness of those on this board who struggle to find value in their relationship with the Church and wish them Godspeed.

 

This is allready way better for my eyes to read. Just calm and decent. I also wish them Godspeed. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

On 9/17/2024 at 3:07 PM, Damien the Leper said:

It reminds me of some silly story told to me when I was in high school about some authority arrogantly assuming and questioning exmo's about what commandment they couldn't live. How very reductive, myopic and, ridiculously ignorant. 🤢🤮 

The one about loving God?

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

So sorry you had such a difficult childhood.  Unfortunately there is no required training to be a parent.

Well..in my opinion that doesn't really matter .. but okay. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 But I will say this.  Growing up in a strong Mormon family does not insure that your parents  and family will be loving and kind to you.

In my head the chances are higher. On youtube, in the church...everywhere i look i see Mormon family's who are so loving. Sometimes it's just neerly painfull to watch for me. Because i miss that so much in my own life. It treuly gives me a broken heart. 💔

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 I grew up in a very strong Mormon family.  Everything was great until I came out to. them and told them I was gay.  I was never invited to any family activity, reunion, wedding, baptism, Christmas dinner again for 13 years.

Well... i'm in the same boot. My parents don't wanna see me at all. And i didn't do anything at all. I cry about it. It's not even because i'm gay. It's because they don't like my personality. They just don't like my personality. And my sister?..man. she just straight up hates me. While we were so close in the past. While i did so much for her. Supported her for everything she did. Giving her money when she asked for it. Sometimes 1000 euro at ones. When i had a car i gave her a lift to everywhere she wanted or needed to go. I was always super worried and involved in her mental problems she had. But when i was in the hospital and nearly died from an overdosis and some other stuff she never visited me. Liver damage. I may be lucky that i didn't need a transplant the doctors have said. But in those first days the doctors were really worried about my liver. When i was finaly out of that horible hospital and psychic ward my sister didn't even allowed my parents (that's the power that she has over them sadly) anyway...she didn't even allowed my parents... visit to come to their appartment on new years eve. While i was just out of the hospital. In the psychic ward they had pomped me with anti psychotics through 2 injections and i was like a zombie. Later on that medication had damaged my eyes so much to the point i can't see much in focus anymore and need a glasses. For life. I can't see anthing in the dark anymore. My ears are damaged as well. My family didn't cared at all. At least i was calm they said. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 That was very difficult.  Because of that, I can at least feel a little about what you have been going through with your family.

Yeay i guess sorry. I'm sorry for you. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

You just have to find your own family.

I have my partner. And that's it. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 A group of friends that will love you for who you are,

Bevore my family i've also lost my friends. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

and not who they want you to be.  I have been very fortunate to find that kind of support and love.  None of that came from the Mormon Church however.  Pretty much all but a handful of who I thought were friends that were Mormon never talked to me again.

Okay. I'm sorry for that. That must be hard. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I am also lucky to find a man who loves me and supports me and shares my life with me.  I am happier than I have ever been at any point in my life.

I'm happy for you. But me myself... i'm not happy at all. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 For me, it was better to be honest about who I really am than those years of pretending to be straight just to fit into what my family and Church thought I should be.  I have never regretted taking the necessary steps to leave the Mormon Church.  And honestly, I feel closer to Christ than I ever have when I was in the Church,

It's all about Jesus Christ indeed. That's were we doing it for right. But... it's fine that you have left the church. You don't hear me saying that you may not leave the church if you want too. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

because the Church always made me feel unworthy of His love.  I do believe that Christ also loves me and I am just where he wants me to be. I have learned that a Church has nothing to do with your relationship with Christ, or at least it shouldn't.  

That's true. 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I am happy. that you have found a place in the Church.  But I have to say, being gay and having a partner is going to be very difficult to navigate that path.  I wish you the best of luck.  

Well..but it isn't. That's just the thing. I'm just gonna be honest here. They allready know that i'm gay and they also know that i have a boyfriend. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Frank11 said:

I assume you took the red pill.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/17/2024 at 3:26 PM, california boy said:

There are a few things I want to say about your judgmental attitude towards those that have left the Church who no longer choose to live the Word of Wisdom  your statement isn’t just your own idea  I have heard this kind of condemnation from many in the Church  

First, do you really expect someone who no longer believes the Church teachings and its leaders to be true to follow a set of suggestions that decades later church leaders decided to change to commandments?

Why is the Word of Wisdom so often the litmus test of someone’s relationship to Christ?  Do you really believe that a person cannot draw closer to Christ if he has a cup of coffee or tea or smokes or has an occasional drink?   I think most people believe that smoking and excessive alcohol is bad, but it isn’t a roadblock to drawing closer to God.

Do you also have a condemning attitude towards Christ for turning water to wine and being a wine drinker himself?  If not, why not?

One of the great blessings in my life from leaving the Church, is as others have said, I have become much less judgmental towards others especially when based on such trivial things.  I do admit though that I am much less tolerant to this kind of attitude towards those who choose to decide for themselves whether a cup of coffee is sinful 

Lastly, I just want to say since leaving the Church, I have not taken up smoking, nor do I drink beer or wine. I do have an occasional cocktail , rarely drink coffee and never tea. See, I can decide for myself what is appropriate in my life. I don’t need the fear of sin or condemnation to make good choices for my life 

Please. It is not judgmental. Nowhere in my observation did I judge or condemn. It is a fact from my personal experience and it is true. A number of people including close family members who have left the Church post pictures of themselves in a bar or with a glass of wine or wearing clothing that previously they would have considered immodest, and then boast about their new found freedoms. Of course it’s their right to do so. It saddens me, but they’re free to do what they want. It’s not intolerant to make the observation of what I have experienced.  As a matter of fact, the only concerns I have are their health and the potential damage their choices may cause….absolutely nothing about their “unworthiness.” It’s been a very long time since I heard any member “judge” someone over WoW concerns. I spent 11 years of my life helping members and loved ones who were dealing  with addictions. 
 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please. It is not judgmental. Nowhere in my observation did I judge or condemn. It is a fact from my personal experience and it is true. A number of people including close family members who have left the Church post pictures of themselves in a bar or with a glass of wine or wearing clothing that previously they would have considered immodest, and then boast about their new found freedoms. Of course it’s their right to do so. It saddens me, but they’re free to do what they want. It’s not intolerant to make the observation of what I have experienced.  As a matter of fact, the only concerns I have are their health and the potential damage their choices may cause….absolutely nothing about their “unworthiness.” It’s been a very long time since I heard any member “judge” someone over WoW concerns. I spent 11 years of my life helping members and loved ones who dealing  with addictions. 
 

This 100%. 💯

[Vanguard]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please. It is not judgmental. Nowhere in my observation did I judge or condemn. It is a fact from my personal experience and it is true. A number of people including close family members who have left the Church post pictures of themselves in a bar or with a glass of wine or wearing clothing that previously they would have considered immodest, and then boast about their new found freedoms. Of course it’s their right to do so. It saddens me, but they’re free to do what they want. It’s not intolerant to make the observation of what I have experienced.  As a matter of fact, the only concerns I have are their health and the potential damage their choices may cause….absolutely nothing about their “unworthiness.” It’s been a very long time since I heard any member “judge” someone over WoW concerns. I spent 11 years of my life helping members and loved ones who were dealing  with addictions. 
 

I'm reminded of my good friend and his wife's exit from the church ~8-9 yrs ago. He was a convert but his wife had been a 'lifer' and was instrumental in bringing him into the church (we attended their sealing with their 3 daughters in the LA temple many years ago). My friend and I discussed the exit a few years later where he described his wife's experience as being very different than his. His departure was much easier. His wife on other hand went through quite the massive transformation where she was found drinking regularly, publicly harboring ill will against anything having to do with the church, and meeting up for special parties together with others who were also newly disaffected from the church. My friend likened her experience in the church to someone who for her entire life had had large bands wrapped around her. Once she started having problems (i.e., pushing against those bands) it was simply a matter of time before the bands broke and she went surging forward without any further constraint. He said it was as if she burst through several walls all at once and 'over corrected' in the opposite direction.

Regards to the WoW, I have commented with my wife about this issue many times. I don't really understand - though I know ultimately none of my business - how a life-time member would decide drinking was something to be desired. It's certainly not an innate desire to consume alcoholic beverages and is certainly an acquired taste.  I once told my wife I could more readily understand the breaking of our sexual mores over drinking. At least the sexual mores in the church are in place as a guardrail for what is considered an innate desire.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Vanguard

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please. It is not judgmental. Nowhere in my observation did I judge or condemn. It is a fact from my personal experience and it is true. A number of people including close family members who have left the Church post pictures of themselves in a bar or with a glass of wine or wearing clothing that previously they would have considered immodest, and then boast about their new found freedoms. Of course it’s their right to do so. It saddens me, but they’re free to do what they want. It’s not intolerant to make the observation of what I have experienced.  As a matter of fact, the only concerns I have are their health and the potential damage their choices may cause….absolutely nothing about their “unworthiness.” It’s been a very long time since I heard any member “judge” someone over WoW concerns. I spent 11 years of my life helping members and loved ones who were dealing  with addictions. 
 

I have a little experience with this.  It doesn't happen all the time but when it does I have so many questions.

For example, I have one acquaintance who left the church very vocally with his wife and now every picture they put on facebook, her chest is hanging out (like, WAY out).  Every time I see it I wonder about that change.  I want to ask if she always wanted to dress like that but felt before that she couldn't do what she wanted because of her previous beliefs?  Or is her desire to show the world as much as you can on facebook without getting banned something that popped up after her beliefs changed?

I would never ask her because it's nosey and none of my business, but that's what goes through my head every time she posts a photo: have you always been this person, or is this a new person?

[california boy]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please. It is not judgmental. Nowhere in my observation did I judge or condemn. It is a fact from my personal experience and it is true. A number of people including close family members who have left the Church post pictures of themselves in a bar or with a glass of wine or wearing clothing that previously they would have considered immodest, and then boast about their new found freedoms. Of course it’s their right to do so. It saddens me, but they’re free to do what they want. It’s not intolerant to make the observation of what I have experienced.  As a matter of fact, the only concerns I have are their health and the potential damage their choices may cause….absolutely nothing about their “unworthiness.” It’s been a very long time since I heard any member “judge” someone over WoW concerns. I spent 11 years of my life helping members and loved ones who were dealing  with addictions. 
 

When they left the Church did they tell you specifically that the only reason they left is because they wanted to drink and wear immodest clothes?  Or did you just decide for yourself that is the reason they left.

 

[Dario_M]

28 minutes ago, california boy said:

When they left the Church did they tell you specifically that the only reason they left is because they wanted to drink and wear immodest clothes?  Or did you just decide for yourself that is the reason they left.

 

Does it realy matter actually?  And besides... if Bernard finds that they were drinking alcohol and were wearing immodest clothes that's up to him what he finds about that. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Dario_M

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, Frank11 said:

None of my LDS acquaintances really know why I'm inactive, and if you were in my congregation, you'd think the same thing about me that you wrote. I could very easily justify it with the partially repugnant history and bigotry, but out of consideration for the dear friends I've known and respected for decades, I won't say anything specific. 

As you may be aware, history is in the past. What do you think about the "repugnant history" found in the Old Testament? I think that history should have less weight than the present. And forgiveness should be the order of the day.

Just because I thought his words were applicable to what you have posted, I extracted the concluding 6 minutes from Elder Ahmad Corbitt's talk given at the 2024 FAIR conference. This is from a screen capture. The talk is not yet available to the public, so I hope FAIR doesn't mind too much that I'm putting this out. The link is to an unlisted video on my personal YouTube channel. I don't think there's a copyright involved, but if there is and there's a problem with posting this here, I will take the video down.

[Video deleted by request]

Edited September 19, 2024 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Rain said:

You just really cannot tell who has stronger mettle only on if someone removes their name or not. It ignores time spent in the church, maturity, family connections, spiritural prompting, financial situations, doctrinal understanding, and so much more. Every situation is unique.

"Stronger mettle" because officially leaving requires an active campaign, and perhaps some public or familial turbulence, while merely staying away is quite passive, and pretty much accepted, since it is so common. "Mettle" refers to degree of effort and courage, and has nothing to do with whatever reasons one might have. Everyone has their own reasons for staying away, including laziness, among those other things you mention. I was quite lazy for about two years once, and though I didn't attend I was still a strong believer. There a lot of those out there. 

12 hours ago, Rain said:

Not necessarily true.  I know of one situation this does not fit, but it is not my story to tell.

 

There are almost always exceptional situations. I was speaking of the "standard model". 

In my experience there was one sister who came back to the church, and she said that she had had her name removed. Our bishop was new and hadn't yet read in the Handbook how these situations were supposed to be dealt with according to the "standard model," so we just re-baptized her. Turned out she had actually been excommunicated in a different stake. She had sent in a letter to her bishop telling him "I resign" and thereafter threw away unread both the letter asking her to attend the membership council and the letter telling her of her excommunication. So she thought she had had her name removed. Well, anyway, SLC called our bishop and admonished him to pay closer attention in the future. They discussed her re-conversion with him, and since it appeared that she had made a full repentance regarding the reasons she had been excommunicated, they let the baptism stand, as-is. Everyone was happy ever after.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Did he say that was why or was that your interpretation?  If the latter or maybe even the former, maybe it wasn’t the alcohol, but something else that happened to occur when alcohol was present…such as him feeling more comfortable socially. 

It was the reason he gave his father, my brother. If he had any other reasons he didn't articulate them, apparently.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As you may be aware, history is in the past. What do you think about the "repugnant history" found in the Old Testament? I think that history should have less weight than the present. And forgiveness should be the order of the day.

Just because I thought his words were applicable to what you have posted, I extracted the concluding 6 minutes from Elder Ahmad Corbitt's talk given at the 2024 FAIR conference. This is from a screen capture. The talk is not yet available to the public, so I hope FAIR doesn't mind too much that I'm putting this out. The link is to an unlisted video on my personal YouTube channel. I don't think there's a copyright involved, but if there is and there's a problem with posting this here, I will take the video down.

This is an official request from a non official of FAIR (iow I am acting on authority of simply being a FAIR member before checking with the Powers That Be).

Please withdraw it until you get permission. If we allow you to do it on your own without permission first because we agree with the purpose, imo we have no right to tell those who do the same but we disagree with how they use it to remove it. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm