Church members who leave the church

[Dario_M]

Just now, Frank11 said:

1. No, German

2. If there really is a Dutch fishing club in Utah, I will never say another critical word about Joseph Smith.

Okay interesing. So you're from Germany huh? I see a lot of tourists here who are from Germany. 

[Frank11]

32 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Yes, the Dutch coast. 
I am a member of a Dutch fishing club.

Yes, I also see a lot of Dutch caravans on our Autobahns.

[Dario_M]

Just now, Frank11 said:

Yes, I also see a lot of Dutch caravans on our Autobahns.

Yes but that's because some Dutchies find it annoying that they can not drive fast on the Dutch highways. So then they go to Germany to speed along the highways there and drive as fast as they can. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

there really is a Dutch fishing club in Utah, I will never say another critical word about Joseph Smith.

What if I start one?  😛 

[Dario_M]

That's funny. 🤣

[Frank11]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

What if I start one?  😛 

I am true to my word.

[Malc]

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

They did that? That's unkind indeed

But that's a long time ago though. I think the church is learning from their mistakes and finaly figure out how much gay people struggle in the church nowadays and how hard that is for them. For me also. I'm also gay as well. 

I can imagine yeah.

Offcourse. And i absolutely don't believe that every member who leaves the church is angry. I was talking about a small group of people offcourse. 

Nine years is not such a long time, especially for people - gay or not, members or not - who were affected.

Calm's explanation of what happened, and how, is very good, and (in my opinion) fair to both sides of the issue - fairer, I think, than I would have been if I had stayed awake and written it up. You're possibly aware that I'm still a member, but a complete disbeliever.

I'd like to supplement what Calm says with some info about what appeared to happen before Nov 2015, and some of the things that occurred after the policy became known.

For a long time, the general attitude of the church towards gay people has been negative. A lot has been written about this, and I won't try to recap all of the history. For some folks, California Proposition 8 in 2008 was seen as the low point in church/gay community relations. The involvement of the church resulted in a lot of negative publicity, and, I think, rightly so. 

In the following several years, it seemed that the stance of the church towards gays was softening, and perhaps that in part increased the shock of the 2015 policy. The way that the church handled their explanation of the policy was very poor - as Calm has noted.

Following the publication of the policy, reactions from church members, including the faithful, was divided. My impression was that there were 3 main "blocks" of members. 

The largest block was the "don't know" and/or "don't care". Either people hadn't heard, or if they had, they were not concerned in any way - after all, they reasoned, it was only the gay members who were affected, so it wasn't a serious issue.

Next were the more-or-less vocal opponents. Among this group were people, like some I know, who felt that this was not God's will, and who were openly opposed. Some of these concluded that this was a political move by church leaders, and so withdrew their support for them. At the very least, they concluded that church leaders could not be trusted.

My personal reaction included sending an email to my bishop & stake president after each General Conference since then, advising them that I had raised my hand in opposition to the sustaining of the General Authorities, and would like my vote to be counted in the church records.

A smaller but still noticeable group were the members who were delighted that the gay members were being kicked to the curb. Some of the statements from this group were hateful and horrible. Although I didn't know it at the time, I had a family member - fully active - who is gay, and who was distraught, especially since his immediate family members were happy to point out to him that it was clear that the church really didn't want him and other sinners like him.

Edited to correct "Cam" to "Calm" - thanks webbles for noticing and correcting me.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Malc
to correct "Cam" to "Calm"

[Malc]

Dario, it makes me happy to hear that you are being treated well by your church leadership, and that you can mostly ignore the negative feelings you get from some members. Unfortunately there will always be haters 🥹

[Dario_M]

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

Nine years is not such a long time, especially for people - gay or not, members or not - who were affected.

Yeah okay. But it's also not a really short time as well right? 10 years is quite some time. But yeah i understand that a lot of members where affected by that. I also would be affected by my church if my church would do something like that. 

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

Cam's explanation of what happened, and how, is very good, and (in my opinion) fair to both sides of the issue - fairer, I think, than I would have been if I had stayed awake and written it up. You're possibly aware that I'm still a member, but a complete disbeliever.

You don't believe in Jesus Christ our savoir? 

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

I'd like to supplement what Cam says with some info about what appeared to happen before Nov 2015, and some of the things that occurred after the policy became known.

Yeah but who is Cam actually?

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

For a long time, the general attitude of the church towards gay people has been negative.

Yeah i know and that is sad. I'm gay myself so i also really dislike that side of the church. I've always sad that the LDS church needs to change their ways regarding homosexuality. A year ago i had many discusions about that subject here on this board. 

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

A lot has been written about this, and I won't try to recap all of the history. For some folks, California Proposition 8 in 2008 was seen as the low point in church/gay community relations. The involvement of the church resulted in a lot of negative publicity, and, I think, rightly so. 

In the following several years, it seemed that the stance of the church towards gays was softening, and perhaps that in part increased the shock of the 2015 policy. The way that the church handled their explanation of the policy was very poor - as Cam has noted.

Following the publication of the policy, reactions from church members, including the faithful, was divided. My impression was that there were 3 main "blocks" of members. 

The largest block was the "don't know" and/or "don't care". Either people hadn't heard, or if they had, they were not concerned in any way - after all, they reasoned, it was only the gay members who were affected, so it wasn't a serious issue.

Yeah it was a bit of every human for himself situation? 

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

Next were the more-or-less vocal opponents. Among this group were people, like some I know, who felt that this was not God's will, and who were openly opposed. Some of these concluded that this was a political move by church leaders, and so withdrew their support for them. At the very least, they concluded that church leaders could not be trusted.

It's especially Elder Holland who's kinda extreme with these kind of things i find. He has also said some hurtful things about gay people. 

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

My personal reaction included sending an email to my bishop & stake president after each General Conference since then, advising them that I had raised my hand in opposition to the sustaining of the General Authorities, and would like my vote to be counted in the church records.

A smaller but still noticeable group were the members who were delighted that the gay members were being kicked to the curb. Some of the statements from this group were hateful and horrible. Although I didn't know it at the time, I had a family member - fully active - who is gay, and who was distraught, especially since his immediate family members were happy to point out to him that it was clear that the church really didn't want him and other sinners like him.

Yeah that's tough. Like i said...the church need to change their ways against gay people. Being gay is not a sin. We don't hurt anyone with our orientation. We can't even help these kind of feelings. And we absolutely can't change it. Not through praying or anything else. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Malc]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

... 

You don't believe in Jesus Christ our savoir? 

Quote

No, not at all.

Yeah but who is Cam actually?

Quote

I don't know who Calm is, any more than I know who you are.

What I do believe about Calm, however, is that she is one of the fairest and most compassionate members of the board.

Because she is a faithful member, she and I disagree on many points. In spite of that difference, I pay attention to, and frequently learn from, whatever she has to say. I guess you could say that I'm a bit of a Cam fanboy 🙃 

...

 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Malc
to correct "Cam" to "Calm"

[Dario_M]

5 minutes ago, Malc said:

 

Aawh okay Cam is also a member here of the board. I've never seen her bevore.

I understand.

[Frank11]

Thanks to Elder Bednard, we know that there are no gay people in the church and, by the way, that you can solve problems by defining them differently.

[webbles]

16 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Aawh okay Cam is also a member here of the board. I've never seen her bevore.

I understand.

I think "Cam" was a typo.  I think @Malc was referring to "Calm" who has been chatting on this thread with you.

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I think "Cam" was a typo.  I think @Malc was referring to "Calm" who has been chatting on this thread with you.

Oh Calm! Yeah i know Calm very well on this board. 😅

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Duncan]

21 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Thanks to Elder Bednard, we know that there are no gay people in the church and, by the way, that you can solve problems by defining them differently.

my Dad is German, immigrated to Canada in the late 50's. It appears he is related to half of Bavaria and small city up north!

[MrShorty]

10 hours ago, Malc said:

The church does not always encourage kindness and non-judgmental attitudes. In my opinion, the November 2015 policy on the status of gay people was very unkind, and caused a great deal of hurt. I know people whose journey out of the church began with that policy, and they are still the honest good people that they were as active members. 

Anecdotally, I am seeing a few similar reactions to the new trans policies. For example, this trans-woman who decided she could no longer remain an active member: https://bycommonconsent.com/2024/09/15/last-day/

[Malc]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I think "Cam" was a typo.  I think @Malc was referring to "Calm" who has been chatting on this thread with you.

Oops - yes (sorry, Calm )

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dario_M said:

I notice that a lot of LDS members are leaving the church these days. Why is that? I also see a few anti Mormons on the board as well. I wonder....is it because of the CES letter that people have read? I myself don't belief that letter. 

 

I was out already before the CES letter was a thing.  I had never really been all that impresses with the CES letter.  For me it was just drilling into the history and not the faith promoting version.

Before I stopped participating in the Church I was a hobby apologist. I was always interested in defending the church against its critics.  I started on this board many years ago as a defender and believer. This started for me even as a teenager. I guess maybe my apologetic activity was foremost for my own well being and belief.  I needed to be able too defend and refute the criticism.  But alas, eventually  the defenses came to ring hollow for me and here I am now.

On 9/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dario_M said:

For the people who have left the church...what was your reason for leaving the church if i may be so free to ask?

 

Sure. Simple put, in my opinion and conclusions,  the LDS Church is not what it claims to be. Joseph Smith was a fraud.  God, if there is one, does not speak to the LDS leaders and their track record, IMO, demonstrates this over an over.  All sorts of other problems with the Church and its claims.  I understand many members, if not most, come to a different conclusion.  And I am ok with that as well,.

 

On 9/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dario_M said:

Well...at least i'm still a reliable member of the LDS community. 

Good, if it makes you happy, a better person and able to find some joy in this life.

[Dario_M]

I will react on your comment later @Teancum  i'm watching a movie right now.🤷‍♀️

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[california boy]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet in my experience, among the first things to go out the window publicly are the newly found pleasures of formerly forbidden WoW substances and less modest dress requirements. 

There are a few things I want to say about your judgmental attitude towards those that have left the Church who no longer choose to live the Word of Wisdom  your statement isn’t just your own idea  I have heard this kind of condemnation from many in the Church  

First, do you really expect someone who no longer believes the Church teachings and its leaders to be true to follow a set of suggestions that decades later church leaders decided to change to commandments?

Why is the Word of Wisdom so often the litmus test of someone’s relationship to Christ?  Do you really believe that a person cannot draw closer to Christ if he has a cup of coffee or tea or smokes or has an occasional drink?   I think most people believe that smoking and excessive alcohol is bad, but it isn’t a roadblock to drawing closer to God.

Do you also have a condemning attitude towards Christ for turning water to wine and being a wine drinker himself?  If not, why not?

One of the great blessings in my life from leaving the Church, is as others have said, I have become much less judgmental towards others especially when based on such trivial things.  I do admit though that I am much less tolerant to this kind of attitude towards those who choose to decide for themselves whether a cup of coffee is sinful 

Lastly, I just want to say since leaving the Church, I have not taken up smoking, nor do I drink beer or wine. I do have an occasional cocktail , rarely drink coffee and never tea. See, I can decide for myself what is appropriate in my life. I don’t need the fear of sin or condemnation to make good choices for my life 

[california boy]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Anecdotally, I am seeing a few similar reactions to the new trans policies. For example, this trans-woman who decided she could no longer remain an active member: https://bycommonconsent.com/2024/09/15/last-day/

If the purpose of the Church is to bring people closer to Christ, to me, barring someone who is transgender who actually might need Christ in their life more than most people pushes them away from Christ.  This is of course true for all LGBT people.  For me, and many others, excluding others even if you think they are sinning seems the complete opposite of the teachings of Christ. 

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2024 at 2:00 PM, Dario_M said:

But isn't that not just a bad thing? I mean...if they're not a part of the church anymore why do they still wanna mengle themselfs into our business? 

 

For me, Mormonism was a HUGE part of my life.  From birth to 52 years old I was a solid TBM. I am fifth generation Mormon. My English and Danish ancestors were converted in the late 1850s and immigrated to Utah.  I also have family down the Farr, Ruth and Raymond line that joined the Church in New England and the ended up in Nauvoo and went west as Mormon Pioneers.  I come here to discuss thing Mormon and yes to critique it as well.

On 9/14/2024 at 2:00 PM, Dario_M said:

In the beggining i didn't even saw them at all. But after my other topic i made "John dehlin & Exmo lex" i pritty soon figured them out. 

And what is it that you figured out?

 

On 9/14/2024 at 2:00 PM, Dario_M said:

That's a good thing. Our church may be a bit more transparant for some matters. I'm agree with that.

Oh my...that's just ridic. The LDS church has nothing to do with Lucifer. 

Well since I do not believe there is some being named Lucifer I would agree.

On 9/14/2024 at 2:00 PM, Dario_M said:

I also ask myself that question. Not that i mind having them here. But somtimes i ask myself why they waste their precious time responding on the topics when they arent interested anymore in being a part of the church and want nothing to do with it anymore. 

Why?  Well for me I gave tens of thousands of hours to the Church and hundreds of thousands of $$ as well. It was the central part of my life and everything revolved around it. It is my heritage still and I am still interested in it, That is why I am here.

 

Why are you here?

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

There are a few things I want to say about your judgmental attitude towards those that have left the Church

Today this topic had a really positive vibe so please don't ruin that.

 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2024 at 2:16 PM, Dario_M said:

Healing? Healing from what? For leaving the church? Is that not a choice they make themselfs (except excomunications) ? 

Healing from being lied to and such.  For the church not being transparent about it's history.  For being indoctrinated from birth with something that the person has determined was a deception.

[Damien the Leper]

On 9/15/2024 at 1:31 AM, Peacefully said:

It really bugs me when it is assumed that people who step away from the church are just doing it so they can party and fornicate. It is so dismissive of the real issues people have with the church. We need to leave that old trope behind. 

It reminds me of some silly story told to me when I was in high school about some authority arrogantly assuming and questioning exmo's about what commandment they couldn't live. How very reductive, myopic and, ridiculously ignorant. 🤢🤮