Church members who leave the church

[Frank11]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Depends on the “facts” you are talking about. 

I take the facts that the church generally affirms ... bad enough.

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Frank11 said:

I take the facts that the church generally affirms ... bad enough.

Those are not facts that the church has confirmt. But even if the church has done that...the truth stays a mystery.

I see you constantly talking about facts. I feel like this are no facts but more kinda speculations.

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Dario_M

[mburgess1982]

3 hours ago, Frank11 said:

If your brothers come to the conclusion through their research that Joseph Smith is a false prophet and that the current prophets do not speak on behalf of God, then your brothers are actually doing exactly what the Bible commands, namely not to follow the false prophets. From their perspective, they have chosen the GOOD and therefore the right thing, even if that is the BAD thing from your father's perspective. 

"What the caterpillar calls the end, the rest of the world calls a butterfly." - Lao-Tzu

Yes true, but if Jesus Christ is Light as the Bible also says, then any Prophet preaching about Christ should bring you closer to Christ and therefore bring more light into your life aka less confusion and more clarity. Both of my brothers after leaving the church didn't know what they believed, and still don't know what they believe aka they drove light away from themselves and brought in darkness.

If confusion and darkness is considered Good it is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures say, but since they no longer believe in the scriptures anymore then they are able to rationalize it in their own minds

[Dario_M]

47 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Yes true, but if Jesus Christ is Light as the Bible also says, then any Prophet preaching about Christ should bring you closer to Christ and therefore bring more light into your life aka less confusion and more clarity. Both of my brothers after leaving the church didn't know what they believed, and still don't know what they believe aka they drove light away from themselves and brought in darkness.

If confusion and darkness is considered Good it is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures say, but since they no longer believe in the scriptures anymore then they are able to rationalize it in their own minds

Uhm..but what is your point then if i may be so free to ask? 🤔

[2BizE]

These well developed reports may be helpful:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

These well developed reports may be helpful:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/

Oh. What is that for kind of report? I did a little peek and i saw John Dehlins name in there. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Dario_M

[2BizE]

28 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Oh. What is that for kind of report? I did a little peek and i saw John Dehlins name in there. 

Don’t let John Dehlin’s name scare you on this information. These reports and data were developed and presented to Elder Marvin Jensen by LDS Historian Greg Prince and later to Elder Uchtdorf. 

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Don’t let John Dehlin’s name scare you on this information. These reports and data were developed and presented to Elder Marvin Jensen by LDS Historian Greg Prince and later to Elder Uchtdorf. 

Okay i see. Well thank you very much for posting this report in the topic. 😌

[Calm]

3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Don’t let John Dehlin’s name scare you on this information. These reports and data were developed and presented to Elder Marvin Jensen by LDS Historian Greg Prince and later to Elder Uchtdorf. 

But not asked for by church leadership, so pretty much just the same as anyone sending in a letter.

The survey was iirc self selected off online websites, so it is worthwhile to demonstrate what those who are wanting to report why they left left, not necessarily the general population of those who left.  It may be accurate for that or not.  It’s a good start to research, but in my opinion, just a start.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Calm

[Frank11]

5 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Those are not facts that the church has confirmt. But even if the church has done that...the truth stays a mystery.

I see you constantly talking about facts. I feel like this are no facts but more kinda speculations.

 

 

Yes, sometimes a story starts on some forum like reddit, as a rumor, but you can get to the bottom of things as much as possible. For example, there was a post about whether Emma tried to poison her husband Joseph. I still think that's absurd today, but I was still interested in how they came up with it and it was no less exciting. In fact, it turned out that the allegations came from Brigham Young during a speech at the October General Conference in 1866, which is of course well documented. Here's what he said:

..."To my certain knowledge, Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth; yet there is no good thing I would refuse to do for her, if she would only be a righteous woman; but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her the truth, and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she. He told here where she got the poison, and how she put it in a cup of coffee; said he 'You got that poison from so and so, and I drank it, but you could not kill me.' When it entered his stomach he went to the door and threw it off. he spoke to her in that council in a very severe manner, and she never said one word in reply. I have witnesses of this scene all around, who can testify that I am now telling the truth. Twice she undertook to kill him."

I don't believe that Emma wanted to poison him, but I believe even less in the myth of Joseph and Emma's exemplary marriage that has been developed in the embellished Joseph Smith biographies and movies. 
The fact is that Brigham Young said this in General Conference, what conclusions you draw from that is up to you.

At least it should be clear to all married people here in the forum that our marriages are wonderful. 

 

[Dario_M]

3 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

 

Yes, sometimes a story starts on some forum like reddit, as a rumor, but you can get to the bottom of things as much as possible. For example, there was a post about whether Emma tried to poison her husband Joseph. I still think that's absurd today, but I was still interested in how they came up with it and it was no less exciting. In fact, it turned out that the allegations came from Brigham Young during a speech at the October General Conference in 1866, which is of course well documented. Here's what he said:

..."To my certain knowledge, Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth; yet there is no good thing I would refuse to do for her, if she would only be a righteous woman; but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her the truth, and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she. He told here where she got the poison, and how she put it in a cup of coffee; said he 'You got that poison from so and so, and I drank it, but you could not kill me.' When it entered his stomach he went to the door and threw it off. he spoke to her in that council in a very severe manner, and she never said one word in reply. I have witnesses of this scene all around, who can testify that I am now telling the truth. Twice she undertook to kill him."

I don't believe that Emma wanted to poison him, but I believe even less in the myth of Joseph and Emma's exemplary marriage that has been developed in the embellished Joseph Smith biographies and movies. 
The fact is that Brigham Young said this in General Conference, what conclusions you draw from that is up to you.

At least it should be clear to all married people here in the forum that our marriages are wonderful. 

 

Look there you go. This is what i mean. People are putting each other in a bad spot. And when that happends you never can figure out if somebody is guilty or not. That's why i don't really believe in the CES letter. And i also don't wanna read that letter. 

[Frank11]

7 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

Yes true, but if Jesus Christ is Light as the Bible also says, then any Prophet preaching about Christ should bring you closer to Christ and therefore bring more light into your life aka less confusion and more clarity. Both of my brothers after leaving the church didn't know what they believed, and still don't know what they believe aka they drove light away from themselves and brought in darkness.

If confusion and darkness is considered Good it is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures say, but since they no longer believe in the scriptures anymore then they are able to rationalize it in their own minds

I don't want to put it so dramatically in terms of light and darkness, but especially members who were born into the church and only came to know Christ through the church often lack orientation in their faith after leaving.

It is not possible to predict which direction of faith they will take. I am speaking from the experience of a German Facebook group that has 90% inactive or departed LDS members. 

People do not lose their values, on the contrary, they change their attitude positively towards other religions, atheists, LGTB+, if they have not already thought more liberally before.

I would classify most of them as humanists, but Christ is always mentioned as an example. Not the worst starting point for returning to Christianity.  

[mburgess1982]

26 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

I don't want to put it so dramatically in terms of light and darkness, but especially members who were born into the church and only came to know Christ through the church often lack orientation in their faith after leaving.

It is not possible to predict which direction of faith they will take. I am speaking from the experience of a German Facebook group that has 90% inactive or departed LDS members. 

People do not lose their values, on the contrary, they change their attitude positively towards other religions, atheists, LGTB+, if they have not already thought more liberally before.

I would classify most of them as humanists, but Christ is always mentioned as an example. Not the worst starting point for returning to Christianity.  

What I have generally noticed in people that leave is more times than not they tend to drift towards confusion towards religious belief and sometimes they even drift towards atheism. I have seen quite a few lose their values as they no longer have a belief system to base them on. With that being said everybody has their own journey to go down and if leaving the church is part of that personal progression then so be it

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Frank11 said:

 

Yes, sometimes a story starts on some forum like reddit, as a rumor, but you can get to the bottom of things as much as possible. For example, there was a post about whether Emma tried to poison her husband Joseph. I still think that's absurd today, but I was still interested in how they came up with it and it was no less exciting. In fact, it turned out that the allegations came from Brigham Young during a speech at the October General Conference in 1866, which is of course well documented. Here's what he said:

..."To my certain knowledge, Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth; yet there is no good thing I would refuse to do for her, if she would only be a righteous woman; but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her the truth, and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she. He told here where she got the poison, and how she put it in a cup of coffee; said he 'You got that poison from so and so, and I drank it, but you could not kill me.' When it entered his stomach he went to the door and threw it off. he spoke to her in that council in a very severe manner, and she never said one word in reply. I have witnesses of this scene all around, who can testify that I am now telling the truth. Twice she undertook to kill him."

I don't believe that Emma wanted to poison him, but I believe even less in the myth of Joseph and Emma's exemplary marriage that has been developed in the embellished Joseph Smith biographies and movies. 
The fact is that Brigham Young said this in General Conference, what conclusions you draw from that is up to you.

At least it should be clear to all married people here in the forum that our marriages are wonderful. 

 

I wonder if this is a sermon that George Watt transcribed and if so, if he took any liberties with it.  Seems unlikely but given some of the changes he made to make Brigham sound more prophety to his own view, I now always wonder.

[Frank11]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if this is a sermon that George Watt transcribed and if so, if he took any liberties with it.  Seems unlikely but given some of the changes he made to make Brigham sound more prophety to his own view, I now always wonder.

I only found this.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dario_M said:

I notice that a lot of LDS members are leaving the church these days. Why is that? I also see a few anti Mormons on the board as well. I wonder....is it because of the CES letter that people have read? I myself don't belief that letter. 

For the people who have left the church...what was your reason for leaving the church if i may be so free to ask?

At one point, almost all of Jesus’ followers walked away from him. We should also consider His Parable of the Sower and the Tree of Life vision in the Book of Mormon. 

On 9/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Dario_M said:

Well...at least i'm still a reliable member of the LDS community. 

Praise God for that!

Edited September 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

2 hours ago, Frank11 said:

People do not lose their values, on the contrary, they change their attitude positively towards other religions, atheists, LGTB+, if they have not already thought more liberally before.

I would classify most of them as humanists, but Christ is always mentioned as an example. Not the worst starting point for returning to Christianity.  

This has been my experience as well. 

Many go through a phase of crusading against their former religion, and for some that phase lasts longer (and/or is expressed more publicly) than for others, but in my opinion what turns out to have been "progression" sometimes looks like its opposite to outside observers. 

Ultimately I think we are each called upon to forgive everyone of everything, whether we phrase doing so in a religious context or not.  The calling to forgive everyone of everything shows up in different forms for each of us, some obviously more challenging than others, and for some of us one of those forms would be forgiving one's former religion and its leadership for falling short. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by manol

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:31 AM, Peacefully said:

It really bugs me when it is assumed that people who step away from the church are just doing it so they can party and fornicate. It is so dismissive of the real issues people have with the church. We need to leave that old trope behind. 

Yet in my experience, among the first things to go out the window publicly are the newly found pleasures of formerly forbidden WoW substances and less modest dress requirements. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

I only found this.

I will have to check LaJean Carruth’s stuff.

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

What I have generally noticed in people that leave is more times than not they tend to drift towards confusion towards religious belief and sometimes they even drift towards atheism. I have seen quite a few lose their values as they no longer have a belief system to base them on. With that being said everybody has their own journey to go down and if leaving the church is part of that personal progression then so be it

I have not seen that with former members I work and socialize with.  Most are well adjusted and seem to be living purposeful lives.  You can be an atheist and still do that.

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

At one point, almost all of Jesus’ followers walked away from him. We should also consider His Parable of the Sower and the Tree of Life vision in the Book of Mormon. 

 

Yeah that's a good one. Didn't even thought about that. It seems like this is happening again...that people are walking away from Jesus Christ. 

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Praise God for that!

Amen!

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet in my experience, among the first things to go out the window publicly are the newly found pleasures of formerly forbidden WoW substances and less modest dress requirements. 

Yes and after that they stop going to church. And then boom! They leave the church behind them. 

I'm gonna admit that i've always had a hard time following the rules...allready from the beginning i was baptized i had a hard time till now. But at least i'm still within the church and i'm not planning to leave. 🤷‍♀️

Thank the Lord our God! 🙏💫

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

54 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I have not seen that with former members I work and socialize with.  Most are well adjusted and seem to be living purposeful lives.  You can be an atheist and still do that.

And that's fine for them. I'm glad that they have purposeful lives. But maybe their lives will even improve more if they will stop hating on us. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Rain]

This values discussion is interesting to me.  This is what I've found.

1. Sometimes when people leave, they don't actually lose their values. They just quit following the rules because those rules were never actually their values.

2. Sometimes, when people leave, they lose their values.

3. Sometimes, when people leave, they may go through some experimentation time because they are not sure what is a value and what is a rule for them.

4  Sometimes people never had those values so they couldn't lose them. If someone isn't kind as a member, they don't lose kindness just because they have left.

5. Sometimes, people have not actually lost values, members just assume they have. 

[Dario_M]

I feel like a smal group of people use the CES letter as an excuse to leave the church. 

Seriously...i'm prity sure that if i read the CES letter it will not change my mind i will still stay within the church and not planning to go any where.