Apology for the Priesthood Ban / "March of Dimes Syndrome" / "Mission Creep" / "Spencer's Law"

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

and He came to Earth for no reason?

Is it your position that the only reason Jesus came to earth was to be tortured to death? And that if that doesn’t make sense he came to earth for no reason? Or did I misread that?

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Is it just the Church's teaching?  Are there other major Christian denominations that feel it was just a poor choice by man to kill Jesus, and He came to Earth for no reason?

The churches would have to believe that the Father "sent" his son.  That it was the Father's plan and the Son carried it out.  Perhaps other churches teach this?  If they do, it matters not to me.  It is just a teaching of this church that bothers me. I was never a member of other churches that taught it.

[JVW]

11 hours ago, manol said:

Agreed.

I have never been comfortable with the idea that for every wrong there must be a punishment in order to satisfy God (or "the demands of justice" or whatever), nor with the idea that it's okay for the only innocent person, Christ, to be punished in place of the guilty.  (And if I'm wrong and somebody needs to be punished for my errors, punish ME for them, and leave Jesus alone!)

I no longer believe God is in the punishment business, but I definitely believe he is in the accountability business.  Accountability and responsibility need not invoke condemnation and punishment.  An error is an opportunity to learn and to make correction, not an invitation to and justification for damnation. 

Regardless of the reason why, if one is a Christian they believe that God sacrificed His Son. Even if one doesn't believe that, the fact is that Christ suffered in the garden and died on the cross, and He chose to do it, and God allowed it to happen without intervention. Even if it was for no reason, it was done. What happened to Christ is beyond anyone's worst nightmare, and it is a fact of history. I don't know how any "atonement theory" could take away the sting of recognizing that, or make it more palatable to reconcile with the idea of God being all-benevolent and good. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

ead. I don't remember what the exact numbers were, but I was freaking out and my blood pressure was high enough for the nurse to do a double take.

Aside from the main conversation for a health care moment….

Sounds like an anxiety attack. My daughter just had one the other day at her doctor’s appointment (not because of a mask, just a bad day for her) and almost passed out.  Those are really no fun.  Just in case it happens to you again…one thing that might help prevent them is to dress as lightly and nonrestrictive as possible for places you have to wear a mask so even if you feel restricted and overheated with the mask, perhaps the rest of your body being more relaxed can help.  In the moment, I find cold cloths on the back of my neck and lying down if possible to be helpful.

Also for me, the better fitting a mask the less problem it is. I think hot air blowing up into my eyes because there isn’t a tight enough seal is what triggers the sense of being too hot. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

The churches would have to believe that the Father "sent" his son.  That it was the Father's plan and the Son carried it out.  Perhaps other churches teach this?  If they do, it matters not to me.  It is just a teaching of this church that bothers me. I was never a member of other churches that taught it.

Given that mainline Christianity believes that God is one entity that exists in three beings (The Father, Son and Holy Ghost) I’m not sure it is the same. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Even if one doesn't believe that, the fact is that Christ suffered in the garden and died on the cross, and He chose to do it, and God allowed it to happen without intervention. Even if it was for no reason, it was done. What happened to Christ is beyond anyone's worst nightmare, and it is a fact of history. I don't know how any "atonement theory" could take away the sting of recognizing that, or make it more palatable to reconcile with the idea of God being all-benevolent and good. 

I think we come up with theories on the atonement to make it more palatable, more reasonable for us.  Perhaps it would be more useful to just accept both the horror and the mystery of it, accept it was needed on faith even though it is irrational in appearance rather than try to diminish the suffering by making it okay he had to suffer because it was necessary.  Instead focus on Christ’s willingness to do so out of love for us.  

As parents likely it is unimaginable that we would require our child to be tortured for any reason, but maybe we can get our heads around being willing to endure anything for a short time (even though it likely felt like eternity while happening) if the result was pure joy for our children.

Edited July 3, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Given that mainline Christianity believes that God is one entity that exists in three beings (The Father, Son and Holy Ghost) I’m not sure it is the same. 

I was thinking along those lines as I was trying to reply, but I'm not sure I understand the Trinity well enough to assume that. You're right that it isn't the same, but is the general idea still the same?  Not sure.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Given that mainline Christianity believes that God is one entity that exists in three beings (The Father, Son and Holy Ghost) I’m not sure it is the same. 

I was wondering about this.  Calling all Catholics!  @MiserereNobis, @3DOP  

What is your view on this issue?  How do you address the Father allowing his Son to suffer so?

Edited July 3, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

The churches would have to believe that the Father "sent" his son.  That it was the Father's plan and the Son carried it out.  Perhaps other churches teach this?  If they do, it matters not to me.  It is just a teaching of this church that bothers me. I was never a member of other churches that taught it.

I'm not sure if other Christian religions believe God sent His Son or not?  They all seem to espouse John 3:16, which teaches that God gave His Son.  I'm not sure if that would be considered the same sentiment or not.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

 

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, JVW said:

You missed the point due to your bias. The point of my story was about a personal experience that has aided me in my journey to learn how to heal, to forgive, and how to love my enemies.

My story has nothing to do with the health impact of masks. I am not anti-mask and I'm not discussing the validity of masks in this thread. I don't remember what the exact numbers were, but I was freaking out and my blood pressure was high enough for the nurse to do a double take. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are normally a very tolerant, non-judgmental person that expects the same from others. I don't know why wearing a mask caused problems for me, but it did, and they were valid, and it is not your place to discount them. The way you responded to me was awful, please be cordial and respectful in your future replies.

The way you are responding makes me feel like you have never had an experience with God in truly forgiving someone else. The one who harmed has no say in whether or not you forgive them, it is your own decision and forgiving is only possible through Christ. It is a personal decision, and a personal journey. I stand by what I've said. I am an honorable man. I am not a liar. Attacking my character was low and uncalled for, I have done nothing wrong to you.

A few years ago before Covid, I volunteered at a hospital. Well it was flu shot time and the hospital asked that everyone get the flu shot or they will need to wear a mask if they don't. Back when masks were unheard of or unseen usually in the USA out on the streets, unless you are Asian (they know something!). Well back then I never ever thought getting a flu shot was a good idea, much like those that won't get the Covid vaccine. And I abhorred the idea of wearing a mask while doing the volunteering at the hospital, I thought that would be so embarrassing too. So, I quit volunteering because I didn't want either option.

Well then Covid hits, and I made such a weird turn around. I got the vaccine and the booster! And as a sub teacher, I was all for wearing masks since it kept the kids in school, and I've seen plenty of snot in classes, with sneezing, and snot getting all over their hands and never washing etc. 

Now I'm a changed person. And about the high blood pressure when wearing a mask, I might have reacted the same way with my attitude being the way it was way back then. I guess now, I've made friends with the idea, since seeing the scientific studies on masks being very helpful in reducing spray from the mouth and noses.

Edited July 3, 2024 by Tacenda

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, JVW said:

Regardless of the reason why, if one is a Christian they believe that God sacrificed His Son. Even if one doesn't believe that, the fact is that Christ suffered in the garden and died on the cross, and He chose to do it, and God allowed it to happen without intervention. Even if it was for no reason, it was done. What happened to Christ is beyond anyone's worst nightmare, and it is a fact of history. I don't know how any "atonement theory" could take away the sting of recognizing that, or make it more palatable to reconcile with the idea of God being all-benevolent and good. 

Why wouldn't God allow His most capable Child help all the others in the only way that potentially makes everyone involved as happy as He is (or as happy as they want to be)?

[Rain]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure if other Christian religions believe God sent His Son or not?  They all seem to espouse John 3:16, which teaches that God gave His Son.  I'm not sure if that would be considered the same sentiment or not.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

 

Gave is the same as sent for me.  I'm just not sure on the form of God.  I've never really understood the Trinity so that's where I get stuck.  Some Catholics have described the Trinity to me as ice/water/gas, but then others have said it doesn't work that way.  If the Trinity works as ice/water/gas then the concept is very different to me than the Father giving or sending his Son.    

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Aside from the main conversation for a health care moment….

Sounds like an anxiety attack. My daughter just had one the other day at her doctor’s appointment (not because of a mask, just a bad day for her) and almost passed out.  Those are really no fun.  Just in case it happens to you again…one thing that might help prevent them is to dress as lightly and nonrestrictive as possible for places you have to wear a mask so even if you feel restricted and overheated with the mask, perhaps the rest of your body being more relaxed can help.  In the moment, I find cold cloths on the back of my neck and lying down if possible to be helpful.

Good advice. I was diagnosed with panic disorder many years ago after having an attack so severe that I thought I was going to die. My husband had to pick me up from work and take me home. I went to the dr the next day and he told me if we didn’t get it under control I would be a recluse in my own home. I’ve been on medication on and off since that time. I’ve also learned to breathe through most attacks, but once in a while I just have to white knuckle my way through it. Panic attacks are no joke. 

[manol]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Regardless of the reason why, if one is a Christian they believe that God sacrificed His Son. Even if one doesn't believe that, the fact is that Christ suffered in the garden and died on the cross, and He chose to do it, and God allowed it to happen without intervention. Even if it was for no reason, it was done. What happened to Christ is beyond anyone's worst nightmare, and it is a fact of history. I don't know how any "atonement theory" could take away the sting of recognizing that, or make it more palatable to reconcile with the idea of God being all-benevolent and good. 

Thank you for your reply.

Let me suggest an alternative paradigm which does not require that Christ be sacrificed in order to balance the scales of justice:

God is love. We are of the same stuff as God; therefore, we too are love. To be more precise, at this point in our paths we are love + baggage. Christ shows and teaches us what we are to become, as Christ teaches us how to lay our baggage aside. The baggage is temporary; it is not part of who we really are. This applies to everyone.

Christ's life on earth was not enough to teach all that we need to learn, and so he would walk with each of us as a brother. He has promised that where two or more are gathered in his name, there is he in the midst of us, and I think the smallest number of people that Christ will walk with is one. Our role is to lay aside our barriers to his presence, because he is right here. Our role includes forgiving everyone (including God if need be!) by letting go of everything that would prevent forgiveness.

So with everyone we meet, we can say to them in our mind: “I know who (or what) you are. You are love incarnate... plus baggage, and the baggage is temporary.”

It doesn't matter who the first person is that we truly see as “love plus baggage”. If that person is us, then we will realize the same must be true for everyone else. If that person is someone else, then we will realize it applies to us as well.

We may have differing purification paths, but they have similar outcomes:

A person walks an LDS purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks a Catholic purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks an atheist purification path, and emerges as love without baggage. (Yes @Teancum et al, this is how I perceive you.)

Edited July 3, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Why wouldn't God allow His most capable Child help all the others in the only way that potentially makes everyone involved as happy as He is (or as happy as they want to be)?

I think the issue is wondering if it was the truly only way it could be done. Without knowing why he has to suffer in such an extreme manner, there is little reason to accept it was needed unless one trusts the interpretations/reasonings that say it had to be that way. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Good advice. I was diagnosed with panic disorder many years ago after having an attack so severe that I thought I was going to die. My husband had to pick me up from work and take me home. I went to the dr the next day and he told me if we didn’t get it under control I would be a recluse in my own home. I’ve been on medication on and off since that time. I’ve also learned to breathe through most attacks, but once in a while I just have to white knuckle my way through it. Panic attacks are no joke. 

I have started using a particular fidget device.  Usually I draw circles on my thumbnail with my finger (just really registered that about a month ago even I have been doing it for years, lol), but that isn’t that satisfying…which is probably why I never noticed I was doing it more than in passing  

Never thought much of fidgets before, but this just felt like it would work if made right and it is. Most I can’t stand, make things worse, but this is almost perfect with its weight and feel. They have much more expensive versions that might work even better (this can only roll one way in my palm as it catches the skin if I roll up, not down), but I love this one. When I forget it I will still imitate  the movement and it’s engrained enough that even that helps.  It is heavy in weight for its size and very smooth. The only drawback of the weight is not wanting it in my pocket. Great price, I have three so far, lol, one for the car, one for the main floor and one for upstairs  

https://www.amazon.com/Compact-Anxiety-Sensory-Fidgets-Dexterity/dp/B0CZK5BJYH/

Edited July 3, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, manol said:

Thank you for your reply.

Let me suggest an alternative paradigm which does not require that Christ be sacrificed in order to balance the scales of justice:

God is love. We are of the same stuff as God; therefore, we too are love. To be more precise, at this point in our paths we are love + baggage. Christ shows and teaches us what we are to become, as Christ teaches us how to lay our baggage aside. The baggage is temporary; it is not part of who we really are. This applies to everyone.

Christ's life on earth was not enough to teach all that we need to learn, and so he would walk with each of us as a brother. He has promised that where two or more are gathered in his name, there is he in the midst of us, and I think the smallest number of people that Christ will walk with is one. Our role is to lay aside our barriers to his presence, because he is right here. Our role includes forgiving everyone (including God if need be!) by letting go of everything that would prevent forgiveness.

So with everyone we meet, we can say to them in our mind: “I know who (or what) you are. You are love incarnate... plus baggage, and the baggage is temporary.”

It doesn't matter who the first person is that we truly see as “love plus baggage”. If that person is us, then we will realize the same must be true for everyone else. If that person is someone else, then we will realize it applies to us as well.

We may have differing purification paths, but they have similar outcomes:

A person walks an LDS purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks a Catholic purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks an atheist purification path, and emerges as love without baggage. (Yes @Teancum et al, this is how I perceive you.)

I love love love the idea you have for love. 

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone had these thoughts on their mind. The world would be transformed! 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Be extremely careful on how far you pursue this "Atonement wasn't really necessary" thinking. It is a common teaching of apostates both in scripture and in the latter days.

Edited July 3, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Gave is the same as sent for me.  I'm just not sure on the form of God.  I've never really understood the Trinity so that's where I get stuck.  Some Catholics have described the Trinity to me as ice/water/gas, but then others have said it doesn't work that way.  If the Trinity works as ice/water/gas then the concept is very different to me than the Father giving or sending his Son.    

I’ve had it explained to me as the concept of an egg, with the shell, the white, and the yolk all being separate things but comprising one egg. I couldn’t figure out how to make that fit with our concept of God either but if it works for them then that’s great.

I tend to think of the idea of Christ being asked to do some thing that was such a sacrifice, and so painful to help us, to be similar to how women must choose to sacrifice and do something so painful so that children can be born. And the love that Christ has for us and his desire to suffer for us to be similar to the love, that mother has for her children and her willingness to suffer for them to bring them into being.

But I don’t try to make that analogy stretch to fit more of the atonement than it does. It’s just one way for me to try to understand the need for suffering in order to accomplish good that cannot be accomplished with without it.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think the issue is wondering if it was the truly only way it could be done. Without knowing why he has to suffer in such an extreme manner, there is little reason to accept it was needed unless one trusts the interpretations/reasonings that say it had to be that way. 

I am all ears for another way! Do we have any proposals? All the ones I think of have an Achilles heel.

From my purely mortal standpoint, doing something to rescue someone else expends wherewithal, sometimes to the heroic point of making the ultimate sacrifice. This expands as follows for this most extreme (the Book of Mormon describes it as infinite and eternal) case of Jesus' work in the earth:

That "something" is not only doing all that all humanity cannot do to birth, live and save ourselves in immortality, but also showing us how to one day do it independently and as an assembly, at our individual and collective paces, and not only for ourselves but for all humanity to whom we give rise in the next estate. That is extreme, extreme work, entailing extreme suffering, sacrifice, etc. along with the extreme capacity to carry it out. Plus, the additional measure of faith and hope in the Father to survive it in happiness, peace and rest; I believe this is why Jesus uses the phrase, "my God, and your God" / "your God, and my God".

I take Jesus' Atonement in our behalf to include the Creation, His entire mortal experience prior to His recorded ministry, suffering in Gethsemane and upon the cross, His resurrection, post-mortal ministry including heading up the Church, and all other activities in our behalf as we progress in all estates.

[Vanguard]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

If there was no other way and He volunteered then it makes sense to me. If there was some other way or if it was done to Him against His will then I would struggle with it.

At least He went into it knowingly. I consider it far worse the things that happen to innocents (especially children) who had no say in the matter of their death - deaths that were even worse than Christ's crucifixion. 

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

At least He went into it knowingly. I consider it far worse the things that happen to innocents (especially children) who had no say in the matter of their death - deaths that were even worse than Christ's crucifixion. It's as if he were every one of those innocents while being innocent himself. 

But it's not just the crucifixion. It is ALL of those deaths with all of those pains and fears etc. plus all the pains that come to those that did the hurting. So yes you have element of choosing (though many will say they chose it pre-earth) and yes, the sheer number of those hurt is much greater than One, but the teaching is that He takes on all of that so he knows what it is like for each and every innocent. So I can't say it is worse for them when he basically is them as far as the pain is concerned.

[JVW]

15 hours ago, MrShorty said:

As I've said elsewhere, this parallel to the problem of evil has been a significant insight for me and my understanding of the priesthood and temple ban, and prophetic fallibility in general. I don't have any good answers for the problem of evil, but God seems willing at times to decide to let His prophets and His people do whatever they want, and other times He sends angels with flaming swords or puts people in temporary comas or what have you. I don't claim any answers and doubt that there are any answers that wrap the problem of evil up into nice, neat little packages (with or without bow as you prefer).

There could be something to this, but this kind of approach to the question suggests to me that our fascination with "absolute, eternal, unchanging, irrevocable truth" might be misplaced. If God can "accommodate" or "tolerate" things like slavery or genocide or racial segregation, and save His people in (not from) those sins, then I begin to doubt the importance of absolute eternal truth. Again, I don't have answers, but I see a significant rabbit trail to follow here.

God doesn't save His people in their sins. It is only a sin if they know better. It reminds me of one of my favorite verses in all of scripture, Alma 32:19 "And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?" Out of His infinite love and compassion He reveals as little as necessary to His children in order to ensure that they can receive the least amount of condemnation possible when they mess up.

My simple answer to how to tell if a prophet is speaking as God's mouthpiece or not is to look at where they are pointing to with their words. Everything God has created in the entire universe points to one thing, His Son Jesus Christ. When God speaks, He points to His Son. When a prophet speaks on God's behalf, they point to Christ.

[JVW]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Aside from the main conversation for a health care moment….

Sounds like an anxiety attack. My daughter just had one the other day at her doctor’s appointment (not because of a mask, just a bad day for her) and almost passed out.  Those are really no fun.  Just in case it happens to you again…one thing that might help prevent them is to dress as lightly and nonrestrictive as possible for places you have to wear a mask so even if you feel restricted and overheated with the mask, perhaps the rest of your body being more relaxed can help.  In the moment, I find cold cloths on the back of my neck and lying down if possible to be helpful.

Also for me, the better fitting a mask the less problem it is. I think hot air blowing up into my eyes because there isn’t a tight enough seal is what triggers the sense of being too hot. 

Thank you for the advice, Calm. I appreciate it.

[Damien the Leper]

On 7/2/2024 at 1:09 PM, The Nehor said:

No idea what book you are talking about but I can assure this idea isn’t limited to one book.

Also interesting that accuracy is now WOKE. Gotta hate that wokeness.

A highly conservative and anti-woke friend of mine once stated that "fact checkers are absurd."