Apology for the Priesthood Ban / "March of Dimes Syndrome" / "Mission Creep" / "Spencer's Law"

[Vanguard]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

But it's not just the crucifixion. It is ALL of those deaths with all of those pains and fears etc. plus all the pains that come to those that did the hurting. So yes you have element of choosing (though many will say they chose it pre-earth) and yes, the sheer number of those hurt is much greater than One, but the teaching is that He takes on all of that so he knows what it is like for each and every innocent. So I can't say it is worse for them when he basically is them as far as the pain is concerned.

Fair enough. I actually cannot conceptualize what it means to 'take on all of that' though I know this is what we are taught. It's also hard to conceptualize considering the fact that He was a 'God' while he took this on. I think this element changes the equation quite a bit. Was it horrific? I can only imagine how so. Would it have been worse if visited upon a mere mortal such one of us? Eternally so...

 To Add: I still think it worse for an innocent child to suffer something comparable to his crucifixion. The fact that the child probably has no perspective/context/determination for going through such pain makes me shutter more than a God who takes on everyone's shortcoming all at once with purpose in his mind.

Edited July 3, 2024 by Vanguard

[JVW]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Thank you for your reply.

Let me suggest an alternative paradigm which does not require that Christ be sacrificed in order to balance the scales of justice:

God is love. We are of the same stuff as God; therefore, we too are love. To be more precise, at this point in our paths we are love + baggage. Christ shows and teaches us what we are to become, as Christ teaches us how to lay our baggage aside. The baggage is temporary; it is not part of who we really are. This applies to everyone.

Christ's life on earth was not enough to teach all that we need to learn, and so he would walk with each of us as a brother. He has promised that where two or more are gathered in his name, there is he in the midst of us, and I think the smallest number of people that Christ will walk with is one. Our role is to lay aside our barriers to his presence, because he is right here. Our role includes forgiving everyone (including God if need be!) by letting go of everything that would prevent forgiveness.

So with everyone we meet, we can say to them in our mind: “I know who (or what) you are. You are love incarnate... plus baggage, and the baggage is temporary.”

It doesn't matter who the first person is that we truly see as “love plus baggage”. If that person is us, then we will realize the same must be true for everyone else. If that person is someone else, then we will realize it applies to us as well.

We may have differing purification paths, but they have similar outcomes:

A person walks an LDS purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks a Catholic purification path, and emerges as love without baggage.

A person walks an atheist purification path, and emerges as love without baggage. (Yes @Teancum et al, this is how I perceive you.)

If Christ did not need to be sacrificed, then why would He have done it? Who in their right mind would purposely put themselves in a situation to experience such abysmal horror if it was unnecessary? His sacrifice was infinite and eternal. He experienced all pain, suffering, and sorrow that will ever exist in each of us. That is not an experience you go through for no reason.

[JVW]

5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Fair enough. I actually cannot conceptualize what it means to 'take on all of that' though I know this is what we are taught. It's also hard to conceptualize considering the fact that He was a 'God' while he took this on. I think this element changes the equation quite a bit. Was it horrific? I can only imagine how so. Would it have been worse if visited upon a mere mortal such one of us? Eternally so...

 To Add: I still think it worse for an innocent child to suffer something comparable to his crucifixion. The fact that the child probably has no perspective/context/determination for going through such pain makes me shutter more than a God who takes on everyone's shortcoming all at once with purpose in his mind.

The One who has all power, and all knowledge, and gladly accepted any task during His mortal ministry told the Father, "Please don't make me do this, but I will if you really want me to." What does it say about His experience if He actually didn't want to do it?

Consider it in this analogy. Throughout history a king's most trusted member of the court was his cupbearer. The cupbearer was the one who was responsible to drink the king's drink before every meal in order to make sure it wasn't poisoned. In the case of the garden of Gathsemene, the Father was the cupbearer, and Christ was the king. The cupbearer knew the cup contained the most bitter poison, and the king knew that the cup was bitter. The cupbearer gave the drink to the king knowing this, and the king accepted it. But after making the choice to drink it, to even drink the last dregs from it, after that He had no choice in how His body would react to it and the experience He would go through.

Look at it another way. When Eve and Adam partook of the fruit in the garden, they made a choice. But they had no idea the ramifications over 1000s of years that decision would have when they made it. When one gets married, they make the choice to commit to God and their partner to be married, but they have no idea what they are getting into after that. Or when they have a kid it's the same thing. Life has so many leaps of faith that have incomprehensible ramifications, and we just have to take them. Christ took one of those in the garden.

[Damien the Leper]

I saw a meme a long time ago that went along like this:

Quote

 

Jesus: *knocks on door*

Person inside home: "Who is it?"

Jesus: "It's me, Jesus. Let me in."

Person: "Why?"

Jesus: "So I can save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in."

 

From this perspective... a lot sounds like bull💩.

It is rather odd to be told to be grateful for something you didn't ask for but is decided "best" for you because a god says so. 

I'm just thinking out loud.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I am all ears for another way! Do we have any proposals? All the ones I think of have an Achilles heel

I’m just spitballing here, so hear me out. Maybe he could just forgive us. When my kid says they are sorry, that’s what I do. No torture required. YMMV. 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think the issue is wondering if it was the truly only way it could be done. Without knowing why he has to suffer in such an extreme manner, there is little reason to accept it was needed unless one trusts the interpretations/reasonings that say it had to be that way. 

Or if it is confirmed by the spirit. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

At least He went into it knowingly. I consider it far worse the things that happen to innocents (especially children) who had no say in the matter of their death - deaths that were even worse than Christ's crucifixion. 

I won’t try to explain suffering, but I don’t see death itself as a problem. It’s all life, just in different spheres. Birth and death are the same. Just getting from one existence to another.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Out of His infinite love and compassion He reveals as little as necessary to His children in order to ensure that they can receive the least amount of condemnation possible when they mess up.

Interesting thought.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

Regardless of the reason why, if one is a Christian they believe that God sacrificed His Son. Even if one doesn't believe that, the fact is that Christ suffered in the garden and died on the cross, and He chose to do it, and God allowed it to happen without intervention. Even if it was for no reason, it was done. What happened to Christ is beyond anyone's worst nightmare, and it is a fact of history. I don't know how any "atonement theory" could take away the sting of recognizing that, or make it more palatable to reconcile with the idea of God being all-benevolent and good. 

Now the gnostics aren’t Christians?

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

You missed the point due to your bias. The point of my story was about a personal experience that has aided me in my journey to learn how to heal, to forgive, and how to love my enemies.

My story has nothing to do with the health impact of masks. I am not anti-mask and I'm not discussing the validity of masks in this thread. I don't remember what the exact numbers were, but I was freaking out and my blood pressure was high enough for the nurse to do a double take. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are normally a very tolerant, non-judgmental person that expects the same from others. I don't know why wearing a mask caused problems for me, but it did, and they were valid, and it is not your place to discount them. The way you responded to me was awful, please be cordial and respectful in your future replies.

I am biased in favor of what? Credibility? A personal experience that makes no sense isn’t credible.

Now you admit you were making up the numbers? I discount your story because the people in it acted in an insane manner. Now you admit you made it up? So that is even more reason to discount it. What other parts did you make up? I have no way of knowing.

6 hours ago, JVW said:

The way you are responding makes me feel like you have never had an experience with God in truly forgiving someone else. The one who harmed has no say in whether or not you forgive them, it is your own decision and forgiving is only possible through Christ. It is a personal decision, and a personal journey. I stand by what I've said. I am an honorable man. I am not a liar. Attacking my character was low and uncalled for, I have done nothing wrong to you.

You literally just lied!

”Liar” is not just a pejorative. It describes a person or what they do. It can be accurate or inaccurate and in this case it is accurate. You want to stand by your lie and you are honorable and somehow I am demeaning your character when I catch you in an obvious lie.

Wow.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m just spitballing here, so hear me out. Maybe he could just forgive us. When my kid says they are sorry, that’s what I do. No torture required. YMMV. 

That is a great idea, and the essence of what I was describing:

What gets you into the relational position for your child to say they are sorry, for you to forgive them in a way that increases love and high character? Answer: All the work (call it suffering and torture if you wish, and their associated opposites for comprehension) that you went through in your life up to that point. All the work your wife did to give birth and to tolerate raising a family with you! j/k on that last item… The work of Jesus is not much different except in magnitude. What gets a God to do the same as you? The same as you in principle. 

He does forgive us because He is in the position to do so: continuing from grace to grace by the things He suffered, except in His case, to a fulness.

Your spitball proposal is not another way, but I'm glad you understand!.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Interesting thought.

It is like when a child disobeys the parent's rule not to throw the frisbee in the house. He may be genuinely sorry when he breaks a lamp, apologies and accepts loving correction/consequence and forgiveness, but has no idea how hard the parent had to work (suffer) to purchase and then replace the lamp without taking it out on the child.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It is like when a child disobeys the parent's rule not to throw the frisbee in the house. He may be genuinely sorry when he breaks a lamp, apologies and accepts loving correction/consequence and forgiveness, but has no idea how hard the parent had to work (suffer) to purchase and then replace the lamp without taking it out on the child.

What kind of lamps do you have in your house?

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It is like when a child disobeys the parent's rule not to throw the frisbee in the house. He may be genuinely sorry when he breaks a lamp, apologies and accepts loving correction/consequence and forgiveness, but has no idea how hard the parent had to work (suffer) to purchase and then replace the lamp without taking it out on the child.

That’s an interesting way to look at it.

As in, the Atonement doesn’t just allow forgiveness, it makes forgiveness efficacious by repairing what has been broken. It does this by covering the cost to return it to a state as if it never happened.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What kind of lamps do you have in your house?

Are your beliefs similar to Rain’s, in that the Atonement is unnecessary for salvation?

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What kind of lamps do you have in your house?

I think it is more about the kinds of people living in the house.

Privilege and ease, unless countered by the choice to be humble and appreciate all that the Lord has permitted us to obtain, cheapens everything within our mortal and eternal stewardship. I do not compare my work and sacrifice for my lamps with others' work and sacrifice (or lack thereof) for theirs, and perhaps more pertinent, I do not expect a child to match it. At least in my analogy.

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That’s an interesting way to look at it.

As in, the Atonement doesn’t just allow forgiveness, it makes forgiveness efficacious by repairing what has been broken. It does this by covering the cost to return it to a state as if it never happened.

Yes, and it takes a certain, well-cultivated wherewithal to pull it off.

[Peacefully]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I have started using a particular fidget device.  Usually I draw circles on my thumbnail with my finger (just really registered that about a month ago even I have been doing it for years, lol), but that isn’t that satisfying…which is probably why I never noticed I was doing it more than in passing  

Never thought much of fidgets before, but this just felt like it would work if made right and it is. Most I can’t stand, make things worse, but this is almost perfect with its weight and feel. They have much more expensive versions that might work even better (this can only roll one way in my palm as it catches the skin if I roll up, not down), but I love this one. When I forget it I will still imitate  the movement and it’s engrained enough that even that helps.  It is heavy in weight for its size and very smooth. The only drawback of the weight is not wanting it in my pocket. Great price, I have three so far, lol, one for the car, one for the main floor and one for upstairs  

https://www.amazon.com/Compact-Anxiety-Sensory-Fidgets-Dexterity/dp/B0CZK5BJYH/

I may try that. I’ve been using Thinking Putty to help me concentrate. Both of my kids have been diagnosed with ADHD as adults and I’m starting to think I have it also but have been able to mask it for many years. 

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it is more about the kinds of people living in the house.

Privilege and ease, unless countered by the choice to be humble and appreciate all that the Lord has permitted us to obtain, cheapens everything within our mortal and eternal stewardship. I do not compare my work and sacrifice for my lamps with others' work and sacrifice (or lack thereof) for theirs, and perhaps more pertinent, I do not expect a child to match it. At least in my analogy.

I just have a hard time imagining lamp replacing as involving a lot of suffering. It is a pretty cheap lesson.

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are your beliefs similar to Rain’s, in that the Atonement is unnecessary for salvation?

I don’t know. I have a different paradigm about the Fall and the Atonement compared to most church members. If I am right a lot more of the suffering on this planet is deserved and even Jesus in a sense deserved what He endured. Then again my take on the Plan of Salvation and why we are here is much bleaker than the standard narrative most use to frame everything. In many ways I hope I am wrong.

Then again I don’t trust God much anymore so I don’t know what to believe.

[manol]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I love love love the idea you have for love. 

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone had these thoughts on their mind. The world would be transformed!

Thank you.  I think the world is in the process of being transformed, despite appearances to the contrary.

The word “atonement” has come up in this thread. It's a very interesting word, imo it is the correct word, and its original and highest meaning is all about oneness. 

The Old Testament word that gets translated as “atonement” has two meanings: “to repay a debt” and “to purify”. “To purify” is a higher meaning than “to repay a debt”; one can repay a debt and still be FAR from pure! But neither of these are the original and highest meaning of the word.

The English word “atonement” was literally created from the words “at-one-ment”, and the word “one” in this context was a verb(!). So “at-one-ment” means “being one”, or perhaps “oneing”. This is the original and highest meaning of the word.  Consider this:

“I am the vine and you are the branches” is a description of at-one-ment. “I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one” is a call to at-one-ment. “That they are willing to take upon them the name of thy son” is a claim and covenant of at-one-ment.

I realize the common definition ascribed to the word “atonement” is “to repay a debt”, but that is the lowest definition of the word.  "To purifiy" is a higher one, and the highest definition of the word is more like “to become one with Christ”. 

I believe we are far more participatory to the Coming of Christ than has been articulated by religion, and that we literally are to show up as the same manner of men and women as Christ, within the purviews of our day-to-day lives. Christ not only shows us the way, Christ is the way.

Edited July 4, 2024 by manol

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I just have a hard time imagining lamp replacing as involving a lot of suffering. It is a pretty cheap lesson.

I don’t know. I have a different paradigm about the Fall and the Atonement compared to most church members. If I am right a lot more of the suffering on this planet is deserved and even Jesus in a sense deserved what He endured. Then again my take on the Plan of Salvation and why we are here is much bleaker than the standard narrative most use to frame everything. In many ways I hope I am wrong.

Then again I don’t trust God much anymore so I don’t know what to believe.

Take it as a parable that caters to your socioeconomic class, and that may make it easier to imagine. Or replace the lamp with something that represents sacrifice to you. Just try not to wonder why the parable isn't about beating the child senseless instead of what it says. If you can do that, I would say you trust God enough, whatever your paradigm.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Now you admit you were making up the numbers? I discount your story because the people in it acted in an insane manner. Now you admit you made it up?

I don’t believe not being sure about the numbers, but thinking you were in the ballpark because you thought it was what you heard the nurse say or that was the range it would be even if significantly off is lying.  Somehow he got a mistaken idea of how blood pressure numbers vary and what is high.  He remembered the experience but got the numbers wrong.  Not lying imo.

It wasn’t insane once the numbers are seen as elevated, but not crisis as happens with anxiety attacks.  Masks can set off anxiety attacks even for those who feel much more secure wearing them, like me.  I have had an anxiety attack or two with a mask due to my stupid claustrophobia.  His overall experience sounds very plausible to me.  He just needs to do a bit of research on blood pressure.  There is a good chance he heard 250/? when she said 150/100; when you are having an attack, it can be hard to pay attention to anything else.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

It is like when a child disobeys the parent's rule not to throw the frisbee in the house. He may be genuinely sorry when he breaks a lamp, apologies and accepts loving correction/consequence and forgiveness, but has no idea how hard the parent had to work (suffer) to purchase and then replace the lamp without taking it out on the child.

How about a massive aquarium instead of a lamp (though I would think the glass would need to be quite strong to contain the water)?  Getting an aquarium right takes a lot of work and those large ones with fancy fish are dang expensive.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve been using Thinking Putty to help me concentrate

I was thinking of that because I have taken to playing with my silicon earplugs, but not quite satisfying as it’s slightly sticky.  And sticky putty (to put up paper on walls or keeps things in place on shelves) is too stiff, though I love pulling it apart. Some reviews of the kind I looked at put me off for some reason that I can remember.  Is there a kind you recommend?  Sensitive to smells (of course).

Edited July 4, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Are your beliefs similar to Rain’s, in that the Atonement is unnecessary for salvation?

To be clear, this is not my belief.  In this thread I've talked about the idea of the Father having a plan and the Son fulfilling it. I don't believe that.  I'm still working with God about whether there was an atonement or not. If there was I feel that it could have been the Son's plan or they could be the same being or any other various ways, just not it is the Father's plan that one of his children fulfill.

Edited July 4, 2024 by Rain