Apology for the Priesthood Ban / "March of Dimes Syndrome" / "Mission Creep" / "Spencer's Law"

[JVW]

The conversation in this thread reminds me of a question I've been thinking about recently. Why did God allow the Israelites to be in bondage to the Egyptians for 400 before delivering them through Moses? Why not free them after a month, or a year, or a decade, or a hundred years? 400 years seems like an unacceptably long amount of time. Moses is regarded as the greatest prophet by the Jews, and for good reason, but does nobody consider that God was somewhat sadistic in how long He enslaved (or did nothing and watched) His children?

Another thing that comes to mind that I view as wrong, and it doesn't make any sense to me, was the closing of the temples for a period during Covid. I belong to a church that claims that the temple is basically the reason why God created the Earth, and nothing is more important than getting as many people into the temples as possible. Yet, due to pressure from the world, the church stopped its critical work that transcends time and space. If the temples were never shut down am I to believe that God wouldn't have protected the church from destruction?

The last thing that's coming to mind is that just because God gives provision for something does not mean that He commands it. He is working with fallen people and understands that we will be living our own lives. The Bible has provisions for slavery and polygamy, but that doesn't mean that God delights in those behaviors, He acknowledges them and attempts a compromise that will result in a decent outcome for those who adhere to His policies. There is also a distinction to be made between eternal law and church government policy.

Ultimately, I don't know why God makes many of the decisions that He chooses to make. But I do believe that He only makes the best decisions. God's ways truly are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. And no matter how angry I try to get at Him, when I think about what He did to His only Son the anger starts to vanish, because what He did to Christ was way worse than anything else I've ever witnessed throughout human history.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Yet, due to pressure from the world, the church stopped its critical work that transcends time and space.

Or maybe it was a decision based on medical reasoning and revelation to protect many of the Saints from long term health issues and death.  If God was okay with temple work not being done till relatively shortly before Christ’s Second Coming (for a few hundred years out of the thousands of years since the first covenant was made with God), then closing the temples for a year or two to prevent excessive deaths among his people (especially given many workers are seniors) seems to be consistent with his previous decisions on timing for temples.

I have an acquaintance who is a doctor in a more rural area who had the unbearable duty of watching many of his patients die before the vaccine was available, including one whole family of six except for the youngest, a high school kid who now is alone in the world because of losing his parents, grandparents and uncle.  It was like nothing he had seen before.

Shutting the temples was a blessing, not a curse imposed by politics.

Edited July 2, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 6/24/2024 at 10:04 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Here - have some cultural context: I suppose it would have been nice if God had chosen to awaken a more noble understanding of race with more of His children, taking the gains we've made in the last 50 years, and having them happen 50 years earlier.  Or 500 years earlier.  Or two millennia earlier for that matter.  But he didn't.  Folks can apply this question to church leaders or Jesus all they want.  It's not especially helpful, and doesn't prove or disprove anything.  

This is deflection. While there has always been xenophobia throughout the world the racial hierarchy that the United States used to justify slavery was recent. It didn’t stretch back to time immemorial. It was a deliberate step backwards.

[LoudmouthMormon]

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

On 6/24/2024 at 9:04 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

I suppose it would have been nice if God had chosen to awaken a more noble understanding of race with more of His children, taking the gains we've made in the last 50 years, and having them happen 50 years earlier.  Or 500 years earlier.  Or two millennia earlier for that matter.  But he didn't.  

This is deflection. While there has always been xenophobia throughout the world the racial hierarchy that the United States used to justify slavery was recent. It didn’t stretch back to time immemorial. It was a deliberate step backwards.

Yeah, I've read Kendi's book.  The claim: Racism and capitalism were born together through the transatlantic slave trade and European colonization.  (The exact phrase used is "the conjoined twins of racism and capitalism" - it's all right there in chapter 12.)

My point remains sound.  Here, let me re-word it to pass the woke test:

I suppose it would have been nice if God had chosen to awaken a more noble understanding of race human equality and the inherent wrongness of one group using an inequal power dynamic to oppress a weaker group.  Taking the gains we've made in the last 50 years ago, and having them happen in, oh, I dunno, ancient civilizations of Rome and Egypt where slavery and servitude were prevalent, although only partially based on race.  Or in medieval Africa, where societies like the Mali Empire had slaves, typically prisoners of war from other ethnic groups.  Or Europe's not-really-race-based slavery resulting from the conflicts between Christians and Muslims during the Crusades and the Reconquista.  But He didn't.

 

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is deflection.

I often hear that, after my spear-throwing adversary witnesses what happens after a weak attack bounces off my strong armor.

Edited July 2, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

[dup]

Edited July 2, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[CV75]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

The conversation in this thread reminds me of a question I've been thinking about recently. Why did God allow the Israelites to be in bondage to the Egyptians for 400 before delivering them through Moses? Why not free them after a month, or a year, or a decade, or a hundred years? 400 years seems like an unacceptably long amount of time. Moses is regarded as the greatest prophet by the Jews, and for good reason, but does nobody consider that God was somewhat sadistic in how long He enslaved (or did nothing and watched) His children?

Another thing that comes to mind that I view as wrong, and it doesn't make any sense to me, was the closing of the temples for a period during Covid. I belong to a church that claims that the temple is basically the reason why God created the Earth, and nothing is more important than getting as many people into the temples as possible. Yet, due to pressure from the world, the church stopped its critical work that transcends time and space. If the temples were never shut down am I to believe that God wouldn't have protected the church from destruction?

The last thing that's coming to mind is that just because God gives provision for something does not mean that He commands it. He is working with fallen people and understands that we will be living our own lives. The Bible has provisions for slavery and polygamy, but that doesn't mean that God delights in those behaviors, He acknowledges them and attempts a compromise that will result in a decent outcome for those who adhere to His policies. There is also a distinction to be made between eternal law and church government policy.

Ultimately, I don't know why God makes many of the decisions that He chooses to make. But I do believe that He only makes the best decisions. God's ways truly are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. And no matter how angry I try to get at Him, when I think about what He did to His only Son the anger starts to vanish, because what He did to Christ was way worse than anything else I've ever witnessed throughout human history.

I think the concern you raised about he enslavement of the Hebrews in your 1st paragraph is answered by your 3rd and 4th. I think these are covered by John 9:3 ("that the works of God should be made manifest," which the history of the Jews demonstrates, and terrible things still happened despite the next two verses (3, 4). The greatest work of God in this regard is the Atonement of Christ. 

RE: COVID shutdowns, now that we see how the Church has fared with the temples having been closed and reopened, how would she have been less destroyed had they remained open? This is like the question of how unfair it was for all those people during all those centuries the Church had not yet been restored, or in all those locales she has not yet been established. Is it really a question of fairness, or one of God's timetable for manifesting His works?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yeah, I've read Kendi's book.  The claim: Racism and capitalism were born together through the transatlantic slave trade and European colonization.  (The exact phrase used is "the conjoined twins of racism and capitalism" - it's all right there in chapter 12.)

My point remains sound.  Here, let me re-word it to pass the woke test:

I suppose it would have been nice if God had chosen to awaken a more noble understanding of race human equality and the inherent wrongness of one group using an inequal power dynamic to oppress a weaker group.  Taking the gains we've made in the last 50 years ago, and having them happen in, oh, I dunno, ancient civilizations of Rome and Egypt where slavery and servitude were prevalent, although only partially based on race.  Or in medieval Africa, where societies like the Mali Empire had slaves, typically prisoners of war from other ethnic groups.  Or Europe's not-really-race-based slavery resulting from the conflicts between Christians and Muslims during the Crusades and the Reconquista.  But He didn't.

No idea what book you are talking about but I can assure this idea isn’t limited to one book.

Also interesting that accuracy is now WOKE. Gotta hate that wokeness.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

The conversation in this thread reminds me of a question I've been thinking about recently. Why did God allow the Israelites to be in bondage to the Egyptians for 400 before delivering them through Moses? Why not free them after a month, or a year, or a decade, or a hundred years? 400 years seems like an unacceptably long amount of time.

That's one of those imponderables.  The scriptures have repeated instances of the Lord leaving His motives and timing opaque, while at the same time reminding us of the vast gulf that exists between us and him in terms of knowledge and wisdom:

• "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."  (Is. 55:8-9.)
• "That after they should be destroyed, even that great city Jerusalem, and many be carried away captive into Babylon, according to the own due time of the Lord, they should return again, yea, even be brought back out of captivity; and after they should be brought back out of captivity they should possess again the land of their inheritance."  (1 Nephi 10:3.)
• "For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof."  (2 Nephi 27:10.)
• "Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time; for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work."  (2 Nephi 27:21.)
• "Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand."  (Jacob 4:10.)
• "Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."  (Mosiah 4:9.)
• "And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them."  (3 Nephi 5:25.)
• "And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time."  (3 Nephi 20:29.)
• "Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen."  (D&C 22:4.)
• "And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall lay their hands upon you by violence, ye shall command to be smitten in my name; and, behold, I will smite them according to your words, in mine own due time."  (D&C 24:16.)
• "And Israel shall be saved in mine own due time."  (D&C 35:25.)
• "Wherefore he broke my covenant, and it remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good."  (D&C 40:3.)
• "And as ye shall lift up your voices by the Comforter, ye shall speak and prophesy as seemeth me good."  (D&C 42:16.)
• "Thou shalt ask, and it shall be revealed unto you in mine own due time where the New Jerusalem shall be built."  (D&C 42:62.)
• "And inasmuch as they are not faithful, they shall be cut off, even as I will, as seemeth me good."  (D&C 52:6.)
• "Behold, I, the Lord, command; and he that will not obey shall be cut off in mine own due time, after I have commanded and the commandment is broken.  Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good." (D&C 56:3-4.)
• "Let not your minds turn back; and when ye are worthy, in mine own due time, ye shall see and know that which was conferred upon you by the hands of my servant Joseph Smith."  (D&C 67:14.)
• "And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time."  (D&C 71:10.)
• "{God} comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever." (D&C 88:41.)
• "Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time."  (D&C 136:10.)
• "And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."  (Abr. 3:19.)
• "Open thy mouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good."  (Moses 6:32.)

I don't know the metric by which bondage over "{a} long amount of time" becomes "unacceptabl{e}."  As I see it, the Lord, being perfect, does not do anything that is wrong, evil, "unacceptable," etc.  

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Moses is regarded as the greatest prophet by the Jews, and for good reason, but does nobody consider that God was somewhat sadistic in how long He enslaved (or did nothing and watched) His children?

I do not impute sadism or any other evil act or motive onto God.

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Another thing that comes to mind that I view as wrong, and it doesn't make any sense to me, was the closing of the temples for a period during Covid. I belong to a church that claims that the temple is basically the reason why God created the Earth, and nothing is more important than getting as many people into the temples as possible. Yet, due to pressure from the world, the church stopped its critical work that transcends time and space. If the temples were never shut down am I to believe that God wouldn't have protected the church from destruction?

Closing the temples was a judgment call, to be made by those in authority.  If it was an error to do so, I think we ought to leave such matters to the Lord.

4 hours ago, JVW said:

The last thing that's coming to mind is that just because God gives provision for something does not mean that He commands it. He is working with fallen people and understands that we will be living our own lives. The Bible has provisions for slavery and polygamy, but that doesn't mean that God delights in those behaviors, He acknowledges them and attempts a compromise that will result in a decent outcome for those who adhere to His policies. There is also a distinction to be made between eternal law and church government policy.

I largely agree with these sentiments.

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Ultimately, I don't know why God makes many of the decisions that He chooses to make. But I do believe that He only makes the best decisions.

Above you state that "God was somewhat sadistic" (as in "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others").  How do you reconcile this previous statement with the current one (that God "only makes the best decisions")?

4 hours ago, JVW said:

God's ways truly are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. And no matter how angry I try to get at Him, when I think about what He did to His only Son the anger starts to vanish, because what He did to Christ was way worse than anything else I've ever witnessed throughout human history.

A healthy and humble attitude, this.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Rain]

5 hours ago, JVW said:

The conversation in this thread reminds me of a question I've been thinking about recently. Why did God allow the Israelites to be in bondage to the Egyptians for 400 before delivering them through Moses? Why not free them after a month, or a year, or a decade, or a hundred years? 400 years seems like an unacceptably long amount of time. Moses is regarded as the greatest prophet by the Jews, and for good reason, but does nobody consider that God was somewhat sadistic in how long He enslaved (or did nothing and watched) His children?

Another thing that comes to mind that I view as wrong, and it doesn't make any sense to me, was the closing of the temples for a period during Covid. I belong to a church that claims that the temple is basically the reason why God created the Earth, and nothing is more important than getting as many people into the temples as possible. Yet, due to pressure from the world, the church stopped its critical work that transcends time and space. If the temples were never shut down am I to believe that God wouldn't have protected the church from destruction?

The last thing that's coming to mind is that just because God gives provision for something does not mean that He commands it. He is working with fallen people and understands that we will be living our own lives. The Bible has provisions for slavery and polygamy, but that doesn't mean that God delights in those behaviors, He acknowledges them and attempts a compromise that will result in a decent outcome for those who adhere to His policies. There is also a distinction to be made between eternal law and church government policy.

Ultimately, I don't know why God makes many of the decisions that He chooses to make. But I do believe that He only makes the best decisions. God's ways truly are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. And no matter how angry I try to get at Him, when I think about what He did to His only Son the anger starts to vanish, because what He did to Christ was way worse than anything else I've ever witnessed throughout human history.

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

Edited July 2, 2024 by Rain

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

If there was no other way and He volunteered then it makes sense to me. If there was some other way or if it was done to Him against His will then I would struggle with it.

[CV75]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

Perhaps it is how we process and understand the teachings. No matter where we are in our understanding, there is still more to process until our experience with God's love reconciles with our understanding of Christ's Atonement.

Have you found other teachings about Christ's Atonement more palatable? If so, can you describe them?

[JVW]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

That's one of those imponderables.  The scriptures have repeated instances of the Lord leaving His motives and timing opaque, while at the same time reminding us of the vast gulf that exists between us and him in terms of knowledge and wisdom

Thank you for sharing those verses, it made scripture study easy today. The one that stood out to me is 2 Nephi 27:21. It makes me feel like perhaps I will see God work in my life soon.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I do not impute sadism or any other evil act or motive onto God.

Above you state that "God was somewhat sadistic" (as in "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others").  How do you reconcile this previous statement with the current one (that God "only makes the best decisions")?

There are many people alive today who view God as bad. I believe that every decision God makes is good, but that doesn't change how I feel when something "bad" is occurring. I'm not going to lie to Him when I pray and say I feel great and that I think He's doing a great job when someone I love dies, for example. Perhaps when I become more holy I can pray to God about only puppies and rainbows, but I am not that way right now. Ultimately I believe that God is the embodiment of all that is good and that He only makes good decisions, but there are a lot of things I see that look bad and require me to turn to the Lord in an effort to understand Him better.

I'm reminded of the Mormon Message video on YouTube about Chris Williams who describes his experience working to forgive someone when his pregnant wife and two of his four children died in a T-bone collision to a drunk teenage driver. He describes how through the forgiveness process his anger inevitably ended up being directed at the Savior, and how healing of an experience it was. (I don't have access to YT on my computer, so I can't link it.)

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Closing the temples was a judgment call, to be made by those in authority.  If it was an error to do so, I think we ought to leave such matters to the Lord.

Many decisions that the church made during covid were confusing to me and ultimately led me to ask God if President Nelson is actually His chosen servant and, if so, how to tell when He was acting/speaking in that capacity. Many of my friends have told me they believe that the prophet is infallible; I don't believe that. When I asked God about President Nelson, I received an answer to both questions within 48 hours. It was an incredible experience, and wouldn't have been possible if I swept my concerns under the rug because I was being a "bad Saint" to question God and His "chosen anointed leader".

1 hour ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

Regardless of whether or not it was part of God's plan to offer up His Son as a sacrifice for me, the Father and the Son both made the decisions that led to that event. The pain that reflecting on that event causes you is something you probably won't be able to escape for as long as you are a Christian. I envy your ability to keenly feel the weight of what God did on our behalf. I believe that if He had to do it again He would, and if only one person benefited from it He still would have done it. It was an ultimate expression of incomprehensible love.

[JVW]

Relevant to the main topic, I'd like to relate a story from my own life. There was a period of time during covid in which I chose not to wear a mask due to the negative health impacts it was having on me and for religious reasons. One day, when I visited the doctor for a checkup, after about 10 minutes in the waiting room the receptionist asked me to wear one. I complied with her request. 5 minutes later I was in the doctor's room and the nurse said that I could remove the mask during the appointment. When she took my blood pressure it was so high that she requested to take it again to double check. (My blood pressure is normally 110/60. At this time it was around 250/150.) At the end of the appointment I asked the nurse to check my blood pressure again, since my mask had been off for awhile. My blood pressure had returned to normal, much to the nurses astonishment.

For several days after this event I felt on edge and anxious. I then prayed to God and told him, "I have been keeping my covenants, and living my life according to the sacrament prayers, why do I feel an absence of your Holy Spirit?" His response was surprisingly quick (under 24 hours). His reply was, "Forgive the government."

I felt like forgiving the government was an impossible task. People in the government range from being intentionally malicious to benevolant and every shade in between. The government as a whole could never apologize to me for the way they hurt me, and in many cases if they knew someone wanted an apology or acknowledgment, they would never give it (for example, their use of Agent Orange during the Vietnam War). The government is also not a single person, and I'd never considered the idea of forgiving a nebulous entity before. Yet, somehow, perhaps just by being aware of the fact that God wanted me to do it, the feelings in my heart changed over time and to this day I harbor no feelings of ill will towards my local, state, or federal governments even though I continue to be in an abusive relationship with them.

What I learned from this experience is that it doesn't matter what the abuser does. It doesn't matter if they recognize the wrong they have done. It doesn't matter if they are penitent or have stopped their behavior. It doesn't matter what boundaries I can or can't set. It doesn't matter if it's one person, a group of people, or an entire organization. Forgiveness isn't about the one who harmed me. Repentance is about the state of my heart. Any time I am in a situation where I need to forgive someone, that is an opportunity for me to turn to God and receive healing from Him. I know when I have forgiven someone because my feelings for them are in the same realm as my feelings for my close family. I may have to set protective boundaries or cut off my relationship with them, but when I think of them there are only good feelings in my heart.

When it comes to the church and their history with people of African descent, it doesn't matter what they choose to do about it. The one who doesn't have forgiveness in their heart will never be healed from the abuse and hurt they've received, even if the church spends billions of dollars in reparations and issues 100 formal apologies for the next 100 years. The church's history with blacks may be one of many scars on an otherwise beautiful church, but for its members it is a real opportunity to become closer to God and receive the healing only He can provide through forgiveness.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

If there was no other way and He volunteered then it makes sense to me. If there was some other way or if it was done to Him against His will then I would struggle with it.

I can no longer believe there was no other way.

If the teaching were even slightly different I could deal with it. Like if it were Jesus' plan and he volunteered then maybe I could do that, but having it be the plan of the Father I can't do. 

[manol]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.

Agreed.

I have never been comfortable with the idea that for every wrong there must be a punishment in order to satisfy God (or "the demands of justice" or whatever), nor with the idea that it's okay for the only innocent person, Christ, to be punished in place of the guilty.  (And if I'm wrong and somebody needs to be punished for my errors, punish ME for them, and leave Jesus alone!)

I no longer believe God is in the punishment business, but I definitely believe he is in the accountability business.  Accountability and responsibility need not invoke condemnation and punishment.  An error is an opportunity to learn and to make correction, not an invitation to and justification for damnation. 

Imo this is an area where "God does now reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God", but as far as I can tell God is not doing so through traditional religious channels!  The LDS religion does a very good job of teaching how to recognize truth (Alma Chapter 32), but it is still up to individuals to "seek, and ye shall find". 

Ime there is "good news" out there waiting to be found.  Very good news. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by manol

[MrShorty]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

I have been in a couple of conversations about so-called "atonement theories" where a few will claim that a good, proper Latter-day Saint must absolutely believe in the penal-substitution version of the atonement, but mostly it seems that LDS have some freedom to believe what they want about how Christ's atonement works. Even though it's not LDS, I recently listened to episode 273 of The Bible for Normal People (a reissue of episode 183) where they talked about some of the different atonement theories with a particular emphasis on the problems with penal substitution. I seem to recall that Teryl Givens has published some interesting ideas about atonement theories, for a more LDS view. It does seem that the "standard" LDS narrative around atonement assumes some kind of penal substitution, but I think one could easily and appropriately challenge many of the assumptions behind penal substitution and come to a different atonement theory.
 

Wikipedia blurbs about different atonement theories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity#Classic_paradigm

Edited July 3, 2024 by MrShorty

[MrShorty]

13 hours ago, JVW said:

The conversation in this thread reminds me of a question I've been thinking about recently. Why did God allow...

As I've said elsewhere, this parallel to the problem of evil has been a significant insight for me and my understanding of the priesthood and temple ban, and prophetic fallibility in general. I don't have any good answers for the problem of evil, but God seems willing at times to decide to let His prophets and His people do whatever they want, and other times He sends angels with flaming swords or puts people in temporary comas or what have you. I don't claim any answers and doubt that there are any answers that wrap the problem of evil up into nice, neat little packages (with or without bow as you prefer).

13 hours ago, JVW said:

The last thing that's coming to mind is that just because God gives provision for something does not mean that He commands it. He is working with fallen people and understands that we will be living our own lives. The Bible has provisions for slavery and polygamy, but that doesn't mean that God delights in those behaviors, He acknowledges them and attempts a compromise that will result in a decent outcome for those who adhere to His policies. There is also a distinction to be made between eternal law and church government policy.

There could be something to this, but this kind of approach to the question suggests to me that our fascination with "absolute, eternal, unchanging, irrevocable truth" might be misplaced. If God can "accommodate" or "tolerate" things like slavery or genocide or racial segregation, and save His people in (not from) those sins, then I begin to doubt the importance of absolute eternal truth. Again, I don't have answers, but I see a significant rabbit trail to follow here.

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Or maybe it was a decision based on medical reasoning and revelation to protect many of the Saints from long term health issues and death.  If God was okay with temple work not being done till relatively shortly before Christ’s Second Coming (for a few hundred years out of the thousands of years since the first covenant was made with God), then closing the temples for a year or two to prevent excessive deaths among his people (especially given many workers are seniors) seems to be consistent with his previous decisions on timing for temples.

I have an acquaintance who is a doctor in a more rural area who had the unbearable duty of watching many of his patients die before the vaccine was available, including one whole family of six except for the youngest, a high school kid who now is alone in the world because of losing his parents, grandparents and uncle.  It was like nothing he had seen before.

Shutting the temples was a blessing, not a curse imposed by politics.

I wish I could share these stories with my own children and some friends that don't believe the vaccine saved lives. Yes, that is what I have to endure sadly. I feel ill equipped to convince otherwise. Luckily not all my children turn a deaf ear on me.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Agreed.

I have never been comfortable with the idea that for every wrong there must be a punishment in order to satisfy God (or "the demands of justice" or whatever), nor with the idea that it's okay for the only innocent person, Christ, to be punished in place of the guilty.  (And if I'm wrong and somebody needs to be punished for my errors, punish ME for them, and leave Jesus alone!)

I no longer believe God is in the punishment business, but I definitely believe he is in the accountability business.  Accountability and responsibility need not invoke condemnation and punishment.  An error is an opportunity to learn and to make correction, not an invitation to and justification for damnation. 

Imo this is an area where "God does now reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God", but as far as I can tell God is not doing so through traditional religious channels!  The LDS religion does a very good job of teaching how to recognize truth (Alma Chapter 32), but it is still up to individuals to "seek, and ye shall find". 

Ime there is "good news" out there waiting to be found.  Very good news. 

Can you please run for president or be the voice so many need to hear?  I'm sorry but I love the things you say, I know it probably embarrasses you, being a humble person and all, imo.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No idea what book you are talking about but I can assure this idea isn’t limited to one book.

Also interesting that accuracy is now WOKE. Gotta hate that wokeness.

I'd rather be woke than asleep and not know what's going on, haha!

Edited July 3, 2024 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, JVW said:

Relevant to the main topic, I'd like to relate a story from my own life. There was a period of time during covid in which I chose not to wear a mask due to the negative health impacts it was having on me and for religious reasons. One day, when I visited the doctor for a checkup, after about 10 minutes in the waiting room the receptionist asked me to wear one. I complied with her request. 5 minutes later I was in the doctor's room and the nurse said that I could remove the mask during the appointment. When she took my blood pressure it was so high that she requested to take it again to double check. (My blood pressure is normally 110/60. At this time it was around 250/150.) At the end of the appointment I asked the nurse to check my blood pressure again, since my mask had been off for awhile. My blood pressure had returned to normal, much to the nurses astonishment.

Oh please.

I am more astonished that this incompetent nurse did nothing after checking and double-checking your blood pressure and finding it to be around 250/150. That is way above stroke level hypertension. Instead they just continued the appointment as normal and decided to check at the end and it was suddenly normal and astonishing the nurse and doctor who were doing all this medical malpractice. Being above 180/120 is considered ‘seek urgent medical care immediately’ level. The idea that a mask caused that increase somehow is laughable though I have heard dumber stories about how masks destroyed people’s health.

If you are going to make up stories don’t make them this ridiculous.

8 hours ago, JVW said:

When it comes to the church and their history with people of African descent, it doesn't matter what they choose to do about it. The one who doesn't have forgiveness in their heart will never be healed from the abuse and hurt they've received, even if the church spends billions of dollars in reparations and issues 100 formal apologies for the next 100 years. The church's history with blacks may be one of many scars on an otherwise beautiful church, but for its members it is a real opportunity to become closer to God and receive the healing only He can provide through forgiveness.

And because you endured the horrific trauma of having to wear a mask for a few minutes this is analogous to people who endured generational racial discrimination for centuries so they should get over it and the responsibility for healing falls entirely on the victim.

I can’t even begin to pick apart how absurd this is.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, JVW said:

When she took my blood pressure it was so high that she requested to take it again to double check. (My blood pressure is normally 110/60. At this time it was around 250/150.)

Over 180 is consider a crisis and needing immediate help.  Are you sure you remember the right numbers?

Anxiety can certainly cause a temporary elevated blood pressure, though they don’t cause such a high that it would be a hypertensive crisis.  I have had a few while in a doctor’s office waiting and it’s too warm and I have to sit, which can trigger fibro pain.  I need air moving around me to feel relaxed.

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Rain said:

I can no longer believe there was no other way.

If the teaching were even slightly different I could deal with it. Like if it were Jesus' plan and he volunteered then maybe I could do that, but having it be the plan of the Father I can't do. 

I get what you are saying. I don’t see it the same way and can’t personally make sense of that perspective but I can see how it would be a reasonable perspective for someone who can’t make sense out of mine. 

[JVW]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Oh please.

I am more astonished that this incompetent nurse did nothing after checking and double-checking your blood pressure and finding it to be around 250/150. That is way above stroke level hypertension. Instead they just continued the appointment as normal and decided to check at the end and it was suddenly normal and astonishing the nurse and doctor who were doing all this medical malpractice. Being above 180/120 is considered ‘seek urgent medical care immediately’ level. The idea that a mask caused that increase somehow is laughable though I have heard dumber stories about how masks destroyed people’s health.

If you are going to make up stories don’t make them this ridiculous.

And because you endured the horrific trauma of having to wear a mask for a few minutes this is analogous to people who endured generational racial discrimination for centuries so they should get over it and the responsibility for healing falls entirely on the victim.

I can’t even begin to pick apart how absurd this is.

You missed the point due to your bias. The point of my story was about a personal experience that has aided me in my journey to learn how to heal, to forgive, and how to love my enemies.

My story has nothing to do with the health impact of masks. I am not anti-mask and I'm not discussing the validity of masks in this thread. I don't remember what the exact numbers were, but I was freaking out and my blood pressure was high enough for the nurse to do a double take. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are normally a very tolerant, non-judgmental person that expects the same from others. I don't know why wearing a mask caused problems for me, but it did, and they were valid, and it is not your place to discount them. The way you responded to me was awful, please be cordial and respectful in your future replies.

The way you are responding makes me feel like you have never had an experience with God in truly forgiving someone else. The one who harmed has no say in whether or not you forgive them, it is your own decision and forgiving is only possible through Christ. It is a personal decision, and a personal journey. I stand by what I've said. I am an honorable man. I am not a liar. Attacking my character was low and uncalled for, I have done nothing wrong to you.

[Maestrophil]

18 hours ago, Rain said:

This is one reason I can't believe as the church teaches about Heavenly Father and Jesus.  It feels so abusive.  When I go to church with my husband I have to concentrate on other things during the sacrament prayer so I don't hear it because of how it makes me feel now.  I know God's love for me.  I know his love for everyone else.  I cannot reconcile this love with the church's teachings of it being Heavenly Father's plan. 

Is it just the Church's teaching?  Are there other major Christian denominations that feel it was just a poor choice by man to kill Jesus, and He came to Earth for no reason?