Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[ksfisher]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You know me, I just argue against positions, not people! 

So I guess my position is that we shouldn't judge people based on which side of an imaginary line they live on

[mfbukowski]

Uno mas, as we say in LA, since the language change and all:

We had a long time member pass away, the only member in his family, single man in his 60's attended church faithfully.

Retired from Cal Trans, supervisor building freeways all his life.

His family refused to have a "Mormon Funeral" so had a service at the funeral home, sometime after the cremation.

And wearing our Sunday clothes.

They were all dressed up as they would in their own churches or lack thereof.

Jeans and T-shirts, fine.  Work clothes for "ordinary people" fine, new overalls all clean of course; a few shirts and ties, I think no women in dresses, maybe some. Lots of folks in black everything.

Lots of tears.

Boy, we sure showed THEM!

Sad day for Mormons, and yes, I mean MORMONS.  In my opinion, not a great day for The Church of Jesus Christ .

And we all sat together, with wagons circled, of course. 

But of course we were right and they were wrong.

Edited March 13, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

57 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I've lived in Salt Lake all my life and I don't really see any conflict between members of the church and those who aren't.  But I don't really go looking for it either.  However, there are stupid people everywhere (both members of the church and nonmembers, both in Utah and outside) and I'm sure if I wanted to find one of them I could.

I have visited lots of places and it seems to me that people are pretty much the same wherever I go.  Most people are really nice, both members of the church and nonmembers, both in Utah and elsewhere.

Labels are dangerous things.  Drawing an imaginary line around an area on a map and labeling people inside that as this or that does a disservice to everyone.

Have you ever lived in Davis County? Night and day I believe and had an economics teacher at LDS Business College in '82 (?) that said there is a whole different world north of the state capitol. As if we were weirdos or ? what, he didn't elaborate. Do remember the tone of his comment and felt made fun of actually. 

Edited March 13, 2024 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

In my mind's eye I remember a talk somewhere with someone that saw another member down the hall in an office building with a white pen in their mouth from far off and they thought that they were smoking, has someone else heard this talk? But did think of another occasion, that may or may not be up this alley, it was when my husband was playing in a stake baseball tournament (do they still do this?) and he was chewing on sunflower seeds. Well the referee stopped the game for a moment and walked up to my husband and asked if he was chewing tobacco. Luckily he was not.

I remember a story about a man who thought his fellow ward member was smoking every morning on his way to work because he would drive past him and he always had a cigarette in his mouth.  He told the bishop about it, who then spoke to the man, and it was discovered that the smoking man was actually just sucking on a sucker every morning.  

I always think of that story whenever assumptions and judging someone for something you think they did/are doing but don't actually know comes up.  

[Doctor Steuss]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I remember a story about a man who thought his fellow ward member was smoking every morning on his way to work because he would drive past him and he always had a cigarette in his mouth.  He told the bishop about it, who then spoke to the man, and it was discovered that the smoking man was actually just sucking on a sucker every morning.  

I always think of that story whenever assumptions and judging someone for something you think they did/are doing but don't actually know comes up.  

Random memory triggered:

My mom was dropping me and my brother off at school, and my grandpa was with us in the car.  While we were waiting at the stop sign for the crosswalk to clear, a kid asked my mom if she had a light.  She said "No, I don't have a light," and told the kid he was far too young to be smoking.

My mom turned to her dad, and said "can you believe that?"  My grandpa responded, "No, I can't. I always keep some matches in my car."

My mom was not amused.  My grandpa though, thoroughly was.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Doctor Steuss

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Have you ever lived in Davis County? Night and day I believe and had an economics teacher at LDS Business College in '82 (?) that said there is a whole different world north of the state capitol. As if we were weirdos or ? what, he didn't elaborate. Do remember the tone of his comment and felt made fun of actually. 

Yep - weirdos up in there! 
I can say that because all my relatives live in clearfield area and they are odd. 🤣

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Have you ever lived in Davis County?

 

20 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Yep - weirdos up in there! 
I can say that because all my relatives live in clearfield area and they are odd. 🤣

Hey, I resemble those remarks 😜

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

👍The prohibition is for our temporal salvation, and so our minds are clear to receive revelation - thus why obedience is prerequisite for temple attendance.

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that the Word of Wisdom is just for this dispensation and particularly for those after Brigham Young (or whichever prophet made it a commandment). So that would mean it's not for temporal salvation, since all other dispensations could drink alcohol and be saved, right?

[ZealouslyStriving]

8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that the Word of Wisdom is just for this dispensation and particularly for those after Brigham Young (or whichever prophet made it a commandment). So that would mean it's not for temporal salvation, since all other dispensations could drink alcohol and be saved, right?

With all the phinagleing (sp?) with food and with it speaking of tobacco I think it is wise for our temporal (corporal) salvation.

I personally believe the prohibition against alcohol (fermented (I  believe distilled is always forbidden)) is for our dispensation, specifically because all members are counseled to be temple ministers and anciently those who ministered at the temple were to not drink alcohol (Lev. 10:9). Since we should all (not just a chosen few) be temple ministers we should avoid it's usage. I believe after the Millennium and judgement we might all share a nice glass of wine together in Celestial Glory.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that the Word of Wisdom is just for this dispensation and particularly for those after Brigham Young (or whichever prophet made it a commandment). So that would mean it's not for temporal salvation, since all other dispensations could drink alcohol and be saved, right?

Trivial point but "being saved" a la Protestants is not really in our vocabulary.  We are "saved" from the consequences of sin AND Spirit Prison (= Purgatory and "hell"= for us - is the same thing, ie: temporary states).  So we are pretty much universally "saved" through the at-one-ment of Jesus. Period.

Believing that is true will be universally obvious when we all see Him in his glory.  We will all, except for a tiny few, accept the obvious truth that He IS God and our Savior.

The "salvation" of exaltation is based on merit, it is a degree of glory ABOVE the minimal gift of overcoming death and sin.

One is virtually universal, the other is a reward for merit.

So we seldom use the word because it is so confusing!!

 

 

Edited March 14, 2024 by mfbukowski

[blackstrap]

At least you have not caught a Bishop wandering the Adult section of the old video store... neither have I,  cough , cough.

[3DOP]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:22 PM, mfbukowski said:

The difference will be found between Utahns and those who live in "the mission field", ie: the entire world outside of Utah.

Out here in the real world no one cares what you are drinking.

The whole idea sounds absurd to me.

What business do others have in judging others by what they drink etc.?

The bible says Jesus taught NOT to judge others.  Those doing so are actually contradicting their own faith.

Agree. No business judging others.

But charity takes account of others' "weakness" as St Paul calls it. I am thinking of the passage about why one might avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols. To avoid scandalizing those who are not well-informed about Christian liberty for instance.   

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2024 by 3DOP

[Teancum]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:14 PM, bearhoof said:

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

Latter-day Saints are very hung up on appearance.  Overtly so. Another horrible way to live your life.

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Latter-day Saints are very hung up on appearance.  Overtly so. Another horrible way to live your life.

Two things back in the day in my ward and stake (?). No Levi or jean type dresses or skirts, wear shoes during visits from Home Teachers, no bare feet. This was during the years that they were popular, and now they're making a comeback, jean type skirts/dresses.

I probably never was in my bare feet with HT'rs any way. But it did hurt to not be able to wear my jeans skirts

[Doctor Steuss]

Random Memory (That My Mom Relayed to Me Once Upon a Time) That Kind of Fits in This Thread:

 

My friends and I went through a phase in high school where we would constantly dye our hair various colors.  Sometimes it’d be something benign, like just bleach blonde, but most of the time it’d be blue, green, fire engine red, canary yellow, etc.

Often at Church, our family would park on a bench next to a pair of elderly sisters (biological sisters, not just spiritual), Billy and Helen.  One widowed, one never-married.  They were probably in their mid/late 80’s around that time. 

As our little trio parade of technicolor hair was making its way around the pews, passing the sacrament, my mom leaned over to one of the sisters and said something along the lines of** “I have trouble finding words when I look at those boys.”  My mom was obviously referring to our hair; however, the sister replied “Me neither.  Of all of the places they could be, and all of the things they could be doing with their other friends, they are here serving the Lord.”

One thing I’ve always loved about my mom, is her eagerness to share these little life moments.  The most common source was from her dad, who would equally annoy and comfort her when he’d respond to her frustrated venting of our latest antics with variations of “Wow, that sure sounds like it’d be fun.”

Incidentally, those two sisters, much like my grandfather, grew up in very small farming/ranching communities.  Perhaps there’s something about being tightly joined with nature, and intimately dependent on community, that helps put the important things into perspective and makes the “sins” of people transform into unique character traits that are an additional reason to love them.

 

 

**To the best of my current memory.  Memory is a rascally (and untrustworthy) thing.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Two things back in the day in my ward and stake (?). No Levi or jean type dresses or skirts, wear shoes during visits from Home Teachers, no bare feet. This was during the years that they were popular, and now they're making a comeback, jean type skirts/dresses.

I probably never was in my bare feet with HT'rs any way. But it did hurt to not be able to wear my jeans skirts

That is so dumb they told you guys that.  

I have never not worn jean skirts to church since middle school.  Some leaders have too much time on their hands. 

[Tacenda]

50 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Random Memory (That My Mom Relayed to Me Once Upon a Time) That Kind of Fits in This Thread:

 

My friends and I went through a phase in high school where we would constantly dye our hair various colors.  Sometimes it’d be something benign, like just bleach blonde, but most of the time it’d be blue, green, fire engine red, canary yellow, etc.

Often at Church, our family would park on a bench next to a pair of elderly sisters (biological sisters, not just spiritual), Billy and Helen.  One widowed, one never-married.  They were probably in their mid/late 80’s around that time. 

As our little trio parade of technicolor hair was making its way around the pews, passing the sacrament, my mom leaned over to one of the sisters and said something along the lines of** “I have trouble finding words when I look at those boys.”  My mom was obviously referring to our hair; however, the sister replied “Me neither.  Of all of the places they could be, and all of the things they could be doing with their other friends, they are here serving the Lord.”

One thing I’ve always loved about my mom, is her eagerness to share these little life moments.  The most common source was from her dad, who would equally annoy and comfort her when he’d respond to her frustrated venting of our latest antics with variations of “Wow, that sure sounds like it’d be fun.”

Incidentally, those two sisters, much like my grandfather, grew up in very small farming/ranching communities.  Perhaps there’s something about being tightly joined with nature, and intimately dependent on community, that helps put the important things into perspective and makes the “sins” of people transform into unique character traits that are an additional reason to love them.

 

 

**To the best of my current memory.  Memory is a rascally (and untrustworthy) thing.

I was the type to place too much worry in how others view my children in the wards I've been in, I might have done the same as your mom. Oh, but this lady that said that to your mom is the ultimate on how I wish I had been!

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I was the type to place too much worry in how others view my children in the wards I've been in, I might have done the same as your mom. Oh, but this lady that said that to your mom is the ultimate on how I wish I had been!

Be that way now to the best of your ability and situation, you may still have regrets about what you did or did not do in your life, but aim for having no regrets about who you’ve become by the end of your life.  That, imo, is a much more productive approach to life, spending energy and thought on getting it right this time around when you can change things rather than worrying that you got it wrong in the past which you can’t change (easier said than done, I spend way too much time replaying my mistakes)

Edited March 15, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

*To the best of my current memory.  Memory is a rascally (and untrustworthy) thing.

But it is how we create our worlds.

So how can reality be wrong? 😉👍

[manol]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Be that way now to the best of your ability and situation, you may still have regrets about what you did or did not do in your life, but aim for having no regrets about who you’ve become by the end of your life.  That, imo, is a much more productive approach to life, spending energy and thought on getting it right this time around when you can change things rather than worrying that you got it wrong in the past which you can’t change (easier said than done, I spend way too much time replaying my mistakes)

Imo the past is only the path you took to where you are now.   Imo it would be a mistake to give past regrets power over oneself in the present, and to that end we can choose dominion over our thoughts in the present (and only in the present). 

I grew up with the paradigm that the past and the future were both massive (the one being dominated by grievances and regrets, and the other by fears), and that the present was just this tiny point of inflection at which the future transitions into the past.  My current paradigm is that the present is eternal yet malleable.   

Edited March 15, 2024 by manol

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I was the type to place too much worry in how others view my children in the wards I've been in, I might have done the same as your mom. Oh, but this lady that said that to your mom is the ultimate on how I wish I had been!

I love Maya Angelou's wisdom on this subject:

“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”

[Doctor Steuss]

But, if I don't cling to my mistakes and regrets, how can I guarantee that all of my new mistakes and regrets will be creative and unique?

Harrumph, I says.  Harrumph.