Deseret News: "‘Make keeping covenants cool again’: Exploring the stories of ex-ex-Latter-day Saints"

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

threadjack alert:

This comment reminded me of something from a podcast I listened to months ago featuring Dr. Lisa Diamond (non-LDS U of U researcher who has taken a research interest in the intersection of LGBTQ+ issues and the LDS church). In this podcast, they talked about how common it is for LDS LGBTQ+ people to end up leaving the church (obviously not universal, as some stay affiliated). As they talked Dr. Diamond introduced the idea that, considering some of the difficulties the LDS LGBTQ+ people experience as they dissaffiliate, perhaps the church could come up with some pastoral strategies to help them disaffiliate so that the process was less difficult for them.

It's fairly well known that many who go through a faith crisis and end up disaffiliating go through a so-called "angry phase." Since hearing Dr. Diamond's suggestion, I've wondered if there was anything the church (either institutionally or we as believers, ministering brothers/sisters, home/visiting teachers, friends, neighbros, etc.) could do to make the process of disaffiliation easier and, hopefully, reduce the "angry phase." It should be obvious I don't believe it could be eliminated entirely, but could we reduce/mitigate some of the difficult outcomes for those who end up disaffiliating?

In my many years in the church, whenever we talk about ministering to doubters and those in faith crisis, we always assume that the end goal is to keep them affiliated "all-in" with the church. As such, it seems to me that we don't really know what to do with those who disaffiliate, or even those who end up on the "inside of the edge" (those who remain partially affiliated, but not "all-in."

For myself, as I go through my own process of deconstructing and possibly reconstructing my LDS affiliation, I find myself often thinking about the possibility of disaffiliation. If/when that happens, I really do not want to go through an "anger phase." Perhaps this question nags at me because, if I want to avoid an angry phase, I'm not sure I know how to avoid it, since there is no real support (from the church's perspective) for disaffiliation.

Anyway, just a random threadjack, if anyone wants to go down that tangent.

Sorry you are going through this, understand completely. I think it helps to get your feelings out and time helps too. This board helped me for some reason, being open with my true feelings and all that, seems to help with the anger phase or feeling alone in asking myself if I'm alone in this thinking, and thinking something is wrong with me.

[Tacenda]

On 2/27/2024 at 12:21 PM, smac97 said:

‘Make keeping covenants cool again’: Exploring the stories of ex-ex-Latter-day Saints

Very cool.

Has anyone listened to this podcast?  If so, any thoughts about it?

"{Coming} back to the faith after grappling with substance abuse or other addictions" and "{People returning after having} worked through significant health and emotional challenges" are, for me, understandable narratives.  

I am a bit more intrigued by the "people who once embraced critical narratives about the church or its history" narratives.  I have many loved ones in this category.

I am glad there is a clearinghouse for these narratives.

Very cool.  Heartening.

I am curious how often this happens, where some in the "community" of former (and often estranged, and hostile) Latter-day Saints become unhappy at one of their number returning to the Church.

Anyway, the whole article is worth a read.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, think of how you feel if someone close leaves the church or becomes inactive. Might you worry they'll distance themselves from you? Or not feel the same about things in your lives, which might create a divide? 

[MustardSeed]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Well, think of how you feel if someone close leaves the church or becomes inactive. Might you worry they'll distance themselves from you? Or not feel the same about things in your lives, which might create a divide? 

Goes both ways doesn’t it. 

[Rain]

The stages of grief are not a set thing. They are just common stage people pass through when people grieve. Not everyone passes through them and some people have other emotions. 

I don't think that everyone who leaves the church and feels anger is always at a stage of grief, though many of them are. I think there may be other reasons they feel that anger.  Some may be swept up in the anger of others who have left.  Others may have anger over how family or church members now treat them. 

So I think @MrShorty's idea is an interesting one. On the one hand you have members who feel like the church is THE thing so how do you justify making it easier to leave?  On the other hand as Christians members should love those who leave so why not do something that helps them be happier? 

Is there any organization that does this? How does it work? I know the church has been doing it with missionaries at the end of their mission - the idea of helping them go on with their lives is there, but it's not quite the same thing. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

threadjack alert:

This comment reminded me of something from a podcast I listened to months ago featuring Dr. Lisa Diamond (non-LDS U of U researcher who has taken a research interest in the intersection of LGBTQ+ issues and the LDS church). In this podcast, they talked about how common it is for LDS LGBTQ+ people to end up leaving the church (obviously not universal, as some stay affiliated). As they talked Dr. Diamond introduced the idea that, considering some of the difficulties the LDS LGBTQ+ people experience as they dissaffiliate, perhaps the church could come up with some pastoral strategies to help them disaffiliate so that the process was less difficult for them.

It's fairly well known that many who go through a faith crisis and end up disaffiliating go through a so-called "angry phase." Since hearing Dr. Diamond's suggestion, I've wondered if there was anything the church (either institutionally or we as believers, ministering brothers/sisters, home/visiting teachers, friends, neighbros, etc.) could do to make the process of disaffiliation easier and, hopefully, reduce the "angry phase." It should be obvious I don't believe it could be eliminated entirely, but could we reduce/mitigate some of the difficult outcomes for those who end up disaffiliating?

In my many years in the church, whenever we talk about ministering to doubters and those in faith crisis, we always assume that the end goal is to keep them affiliated "all-in" with the church. As such, it seems to me that we don't really know what to do with those who disaffiliate, or even those who end up on the "inside of the edge" (those who remain partially affiliated, but not "all-in."

For myself, as I go through my own process of deconstructing and possibly reconstructing my LDS affiliation, I find myself often thinking about the possibility of disaffiliation. If/when that happens, I really do not want to go through an "angry phase." Perhaps this question nags at me because, if I want to avoid an angry phase, I'm not sure I know how to avoid it, since there is no real support (from the church's perspective) for disaffiliation.

Anyway, just a random threadjack, if anyone wants to go down that tangent.

For LGBTQ leavers the anger phase is probably normal. A lot of it is anger at all the self-castigation the person went through and (especially amongst people who come out later) anger at missed opportunities. I can feel both of those and I haven’t left.

The stages of grief rarely happen completely in order but they are earlier in the process and usually occur before leaving. Denial is still usually first and often lasts the longest. Anger at oneself for being wrong and anger at God for making you wrong is usually mixed with desperate bargaining with God. Then depression with anger and bargaining resurfacing sporadically throughout as you realize God is not going to fix you so you are doomed. Then acceptance which is usually when people leave. The “angry phase” is part of the separation and is realizing how the teachings of the church induced you to be so cruel to yourself and often caused others to be cruel to you and anger at wasting your life dealing with that instead of doing other things.

Edited March 4 by The Nehor

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, MrShorty said:

threadjack alert:

This comment reminded me of something from a podcast I listened to months ago featuring Dr. Lisa Diamond (non-LDS U of U researcher who has taken a research interest in the intersection of LGBTQ+ issues and the LDS church). In this podcast, they talked about how common it is for LDS LGBTQ+ people to end up leaving the church (obviously not universal, as some stay affiliated). As they talked Dr. Diamond introduced the idea that, considering some of the difficulties the LDS LGBTQ+ people experience as they dissaffiliate, perhaps the church could come up with some pastoral strategies to help them disaffiliate so that the process was less difficult for them.

It's fairly well known that many who go through a faith crisis and end up disaffiliating go through a so-called "angry phase." Since hearing Dr. Diamond's suggestion, I've wondered if there was anything the church (either institutionally or we as believers, ministering brothers/sisters, home/visiting teachers, friends, neighbros, etc.) could do to make the process of disaffiliation easier and, hopefully, reduce the "angry phase." It should be obvious I don't believe it could be eliminated entirely, but could we reduce/mitigate some of the difficult outcomes for those who end up disaffiliating?

In my many years in the church, whenever we talk about ministering to doubters and those in faith crisis, we always assume that the end goal is to keep them affiliated "all-in" with the church. As such, it seems to me that we don't really know what to do with those who disaffiliate, or even those who end up on the "inside of the edge" (those who remain partially affiliated, but not "all-in."

For myself, as I go through my own process of deconstructing and possibly reconstructing my LDS affiliation, I find myself often thinking about the possibility of disaffiliation. If/when that happens, I really do not want to go through an "angry phase." Perhaps this question nags at me because, if I want to avoid an angry phase, I'm not sure I know how to avoid it, since there is no real support (from the church's perspective) for disaffiliation.

Anyway, just a random threadjack, if anyone wants to go down that tangent.

It's an interesting tangent. 

My first reaction is solely on a pragmatic level: I have no clue what that looks like and in my head it would be a methodology bound to fail quite often. Before hitting up the most conflictual, let's go with the least. Say a person disaffiliates. There family did not do anything rash like disown them. They still maintain relationships with those they care most about in the church (family, some close friends). There's generally a live and let live policy in said friendships but there's still moments of anger or feeling little lost in transition. The problem with this one, is that most members wouldn't have a solid idea how to help them fill their gaps. They can talk to them (some will feel comfortable doing so). But what they may say may be small comfort or show their gaps in how they can help them. What it looks like to not be a member can't really be answered by people who are. I think the closest I can think of are more therapisty answers: finding things that still have meaning and value to you, keeping the values that you still like from a church setting and trying to find similar substitutes, engaging more with the things you like and filtering the things you don't, etc. But they're generic to some degree. Each person would have to figure that out to some degree on their own. I would also assume their anger would be less intense, considering they landing out was relatively soft. 

It's a whole different story if it isn't an ideal transition. As in the people around them are not supportive or are struggling to accept the shifts in expectations in their relationship. They come from a community that's more insular/black-and-white in their thinking. Maybe people in their lds sphere were abusive or harmful to some level. In which case it's not just asking the blind to lead the blind as in the first example. It's asking someone to have trust in a person or entity they don't trust and maybe shouldn't trust in certain cases. In which case, that would be really stupid. Unfortunately, I would assume these are the ones that would be most likely to have a pretty pronounced anger phase. 

The other problem I've seen in this is that when a person who leaves needs to talk about the problems they had with the church, there's also a difficulty of translation. Some of their experiences will clash with a believing Latter-Day Saint's experience. As in the Practicing latter-day saint may not have received the same messages they did...sometimes from even the same sources. Some of these conclusions can be a bit insulting or lead to people feeling fairly defensive. This can come off as invalidating at times. Or worse, it won't clash, the believing person sees it as a good/right thing, and the non-affliiated person will inadvertently reinforce negative assertions by how they may respond. That's not likely to reduce anger or bitterness. 

This also doesn't help with the problem that many a times people can be broadsided by the shifts that their loved one is undergoing. There's an aspect that can simply be unfair in terms of expectations...that the person who's had years to process, think, and shift their views now expects a person who's had far shorter time to not only adjust to sometimes drastically different expectations and dreams they had for their loved one but then support them in navigating moving to their new status. That can be a lot to ask, emotionally.

I don't want to be a complete naysayer on this. Even as I wrote this I could think of messages on ways to help encourage positive engagements with leaving members. (messages on how to engage, messages on how to accept differing paths and desires, on finding and support goodness even when it doesn't look like what we'd hoped, Discouragement of harsh behaviors, etc.) But I think one needs to be realistic about the degree of limitations that will be there no matter what. And on this one, there likely always will be. 

 

 With luv,

BD 

Edited March 4 by BlueDreams

[carbon dioxide]

14 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This kind of thinking and talking is why you’ve (collectively) lost 1/3 of those born and indoctrinated into religion (percentage per Hardy in OP). 

If a man bashes his head against a concrete wall continually, does it hurt me?  I have not lost anything.  When people leave the church, they are not hurting the Church.  The church is simply a vehicle that God has give us so that we can return to him.  When a person leaves the church, all they have done is spiritually blow themselves up.  They need the church to accomplish everything they wanted for billions of years in the premortal world.   They can't accomplish what they always had wanted without it.  SO when they leave, they are throwing everything they wanted and worked for billions of years into the trash.  Every person who have fallen away from the Church and has died are miserable in the spirit world.   Secularism has an expiration date.  It will do nothing for every single one of them 1 second after they die.   So I just tell those people to enjoy their time in secularism while it last.  The clock is ticking and until the alarm sounds and time is up.   Then it is all downhill from there.  I hope they come back for their sakes.  But regardless, God will remain God and those who endure to the end are exalted with or without them.   Those that left and do not come back are left out in the cold with an eternity to think about how things would had been had they stayed and not allowed the things of the world (secularism if you will) to cloud their judgement. 

It really is what do we want to become.  If one really wants exaltation and the life that goes with that, that can only be reached through the Church and the ordinances.   There are no other ways that will be provided.   If one desires to be a servant in a lower kingdom, they have that choice as well.  One does not need to be a member of the church to be servant in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom.    So those who leave apparently desire that.  OK.

 

 

Edited March 4 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If a man bashes his head against a concrete wall continually, does it hurt me?  I have not lost anything.  When people leave the church, they are not hurting the Church.  The church is simply a vehicle that God has give us so that we can return to him.  When a person leaves the church, all they have done is spiritually blow themselves up.  They need the church to accomplish everything they wanted for billions of years in the premortal world.   They can't accomplish what they always had wanted without it.  SO when they leave, they are throwing everything they wanted and worked for billions of years into the trash.  Every person who have fallen away from the Church and has died are miserable in the spirit world.   Secularism has an expiration date.  It will do nothing for every single one of them 1 second after they die.   So I just tell those people to enjoy their time in secularism while it last.  The clock is ticking and until the alarm sounds and time is up.   Then it is all downhill from there.  I hope they come back for their sakes.  But regardless, God will remain God and those who endure to the end are exalted with or without them.   Those that left and do not come back are left out in the cold with an eternity to think about how things would had been had they stayed and not allowed the things of the world (secularism if you will) to cloud their judgement. 

It really is what do we want to become.  If one really wants exaltation and the life that goes with that, that can only be reached through the Church and the ordinances.   There are no other ways that will be provided.   If one desires to be a servant in a lower kingdom, they have that choice as well.  One does not need to be a member of the church to be servant in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom.    So those who leave apparently desire that.  OK.

I’m a realist. Even if I do continue trying to live the gospel the odds of my qualifying for exaltation by any scriptural standard are low. I have met relatively few people who seem to be leading a terrestrial standard of living. I can count the number of people I have met who seemed to live by a celestial standard without having to take my shoes off.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

This also doesn't help with the problem that many a times people can be broadsided by the shifts that their loved one is undergoing. There's an aspect that can simply be unfair in terms of expectations...that the person who's had years to process, think, and shift their views now expects a person who's had far shorter time to not only adjust to sometimes drastically different expectations and dreams they had for their loved one but then support them in navigating moving to their new status. That can be a lot to ask, emotionally.

This is a common problem in general and one I (and many others) warn about when someone comes out to someone. The person has been wrestling with themselves for months or years or sometimes even decades. Then they share it with someone (often a spouse or parents) and are upset when the person looks kind of shell-shocked.

I was fortunate. The first person I came out to had figured me out long before I accepted it.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I can count the number of people I have met who seemed to live by a celestial standard without having to take my shoes off.

It’s a good thing we get to continue to learn how to be a Zion people after death.

[california boy]

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If a man bashes his head against a concrete wall continually, does it hurt me?  I have not lost anything.  When people leave the church, they are not hurting the Church.  The church is simply a vehicle that God has give us so that we can return to him.  When a person leaves the church, all they have done is spiritually blow themselves up.  They need the church to accomplish everything they wanted for billions of years in the premortal world.   They can't accomplish what they always had wanted without it.  SO when they leave, they are throwing everything they wanted and worked for billions of years into the trash.  Every person who have fallen away from the Church and has died are miserable in the spirit world.   Secularism has an expiration date.  It will do nothing for every single one of them 1 second after they die.   So I just tell those people to enjoy their time in secularism while it last.  The clock is ticking and until the alarm sounds and time is up.   Then it is all downhill from there.  I hope they come back for their sakes.  But regardless, God will remain God and those who endure to the end are exalted with or without them.   Those that left and do not come back are left out in the cold with an eternity to think about how things would had been had they stayed and not allowed the things of the world (secularism if you will) to cloud their judgement. 

It really is what do we want to become.  If one really wants exaltation and the life that goes with that, that can only be reached through the Church and the ordinances.   There are no other ways that will be provided.   If one desires to be a servant in a lower kingdom, they have that choice as well.  One does not need to be a member of the church to be servant in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom.    So those who leave apparently desire that.  OK.

 

 

If this is what you really believe, then the Celestial Kingdom is going to be a pretty lonely place.  I hope you enjoy your cold gold throne for all eternity.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

If this is what you really believe, then the Celestial Kingdom is going to be a pretty lonely place.  I hope you enjoy your cold gold throne for all eternity.

Wait, that didn’t turn you straight and running back?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Wait, that didn’t turn you straight and running back?

I am pretty miserable in the gospel. Threatening me with misery for leaving just doesn’t really work that well as a threat.

[california boy]

13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Wait, that didn’t turn you straight and running back?

Yeah that never happened did it.  I have to say that because I am gay, just about everything I hear about this magical Celestial Kingdom makes me have zero desire to want to be there.  All the carrots they offer to get there such as multiple wives, eternal increase and being straight are just a no starter for me.  I don't need to be miserable here on earth just so I will be miserable throughout eternity.  And maybe that is how Mormons have designed it so that if you don't fit the mold, you will not be there.  Members spend a lifetime trying to fit this very narrow definition of what they have to be to gain the golden throne.  

I hope all of you get what you are so desperately hoping you will get.  Then you can spend eternity controlling a world, wiping out wicked people by flooding your planet, commanding your special choose few murder women, children and all the livestock to claim land that others are living on, watching human suffering and doing nothing, until it all comes to a fiery ending burning the majority of your wicked children so that a tiny few will be able to return to you.  Sounds like a way anyone would love to spend eternity, right?  

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:33 PM, carbon dioxide said:

But regardless, God will remain God and those who endure to the end are exalted with or without them. 

Isn’t there a Joseph Smith quote saying that you can’t be exalted without your family? I feel like I’ve read it somewhere. 

[Damien the Leper]

The idiocy and arrogance of a statement a past bishop made long ago comes to mind.

"You'll be so miserable that you won't know you're miserable."

Ugh! Such a statement is inoffensive. However, it is a thought game of engaging brain before speaking or the result of foot in mouth and head up rectum scenario.

[The Nehor]

On 3/3/2024 at 11:33 PM, carbon dioxide said:

If a man bashes his head against a concrete wall continually, does it hurt me?  I have not lost anything.  When people leave the church, they are not hurting the Church.  The church is simply a vehicle that God has give us so that we can return to him.  When a person leaves the church, all they have done is spiritually blow themselves up.  They need the church to accomplish everything they wanted for billions of years in the premortal world.   They can't accomplish what they always had wanted without it.  SO when they leave, they are throwing everything they wanted and worked for billions of years into the trash.  Every person who have fallen away from the Church and has died are miserable in the spirit world.   Secularism has an expiration date.  It will do nothing for every single one of them 1 second after they die.   So I just tell those people to enjoy their time in secularism while it last.  The clock is ticking and until the alarm sounds and time is up.   Then it is all downhill from there.  I hope they come back for their sakes.  But regardless, God will remain God and those who endure to the end are exalted with or without them.   Those that left and do not come back are left out in the cold with an eternity to think about how things would had been had they stayed and not allowed the things of the world (secularism if you will) to cloud their judgement. 

It really is what do we want to become.  If one really wants exaltation and the life that goes with that, that can only be reached through the Church and the ordinances.   There are no other ways that will be provided.   If one desires to be a servant in a lower kingdom, they have that choice as well.  One does not need to be a member of the church to be servant in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom.    So those who leave apparently desire that.  OK.

 

 

I just found a ritual magic user that will cast a spell to make me a god for less than $2000.

Lifehack found!

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1443561436/god-transformation-same-day-powerful-god?click_key=994281dbfe3be9c409937d67059817c5a18a44c0%3A1443561436&click_sum=aea5ebd6&external=1&ref=hp_opfy-3-2

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

The idiocy and arrogance of a statement a past bishop made long ago comes to mind.

"You'll be so miserable that you won't know you're miserable."

Ugh! Such a statement is inoffensive. However, it is a thought game of engaging brain before speaking or the result of foot in mouth and head up rectum scenario.

Yeah, pretty sure that is not how misery works.

[Peppermint Patty]

On 3/5/2024 at 4:11 PM, The Nehor said:

I just found a ritual magic user that will cast a spell to make me a god for less than $2000.

Lifehack found!

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1443561436/god-transformation-same-day-powerful-god?click_key=994281dbfe3be9c409937d67059817c5a18a44c0%3A1443561436&click_sum=aea5ebd6&external=1&ref=hp_opfy-3-2

That's crazy. Nehor, there are actually verified users who left reviews for that $2,000 spell. You have got to be kidding me. I think I need to be selling stuff on Esty because it looks like people will buy anything.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Peppermint Patty said:

That's crazy. Nehor, there are actually verified users who left reviews for that $2,000 spell. You have got to be kidding me. I think I need to be selling stuff on Esty because it looks like people will buy anything.

I always wonder if the store gets friends to buy stuff and then pay them back to show the store’s products are ‘legit’ when something is ridiculously expensive 

Edited March 10 by Calm

[manol]

On 3/5/2024 at 11:24 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Isn’t there a Joseph Smith quote saying that you can’t be exalted without your family? I feel like I’ve read it somewhere. 

Bingo! 

From Doctrine & Covenants section 128, verse 18:  "we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect." 

Imo there is an interconnectedness, arguably quasi-universalist line of thinking in the LDS body of teachings, even if it's not the predominant one, the above passage being an example thereof.

Edited March 11 by manol

[Calm]

Quote

 I felt the tender mercy of our Heavenly Father who, in His grand plan of salvation, provided us a way to redeem our deceased ancestors. As President Wilford Woodruff stated: “There is hardly any principle the Lord has revealed that I have rejoiced more in than in the redemption of our dead; that we will have our fathers, our mothers, our wives and our children with us in the family organization, in the morning of the first resurrection and in the Celestial Kingdom. These are grand principles. They are worth every sacrifice.”⁶ What a glorious doctrine! 

As a member of His restored Church, we have a “divinely appointed responsibility”⁷ to search out our kindred dead and to help them receive all saving ordinances for their exaltation. “they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.”⁸ Joseph Smith taught, “The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead. . . . For it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fulness of the dispensation of times—a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man.”⁹May we all be touched by the spirit of Elijah and continue to find joy as we carry out this sacred work.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/03/asa-eng-local-pages/local-news-002?lang=eng

A link to the scripture….

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128?lang=eng

Edited March 11 by Calm