Bible banned in Davis school libraries. Book of Mormon next?

[blackstrap]

It will really be out of control when the Alpine district bans all books on " skiing " because it is a dangerous activity . 🤕

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Many groups such as Utah Parents United say they target these books not because of the LGBTQ+ characters and themes, but because of the “sexually explicit conduct” and “sexual conduct” that is found in these books.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Should be pretty easy to disprove if you have access to the school libraries.  My guess is you are right as straight sexual content is familiar and doesn’t register as sexual content probably for some where if queer, it jumps out for them because it’s unfamiliar, so it just gets more attention automatically. Or a parent just isn’t concerned about books dealing with straight relationships, but picks up and reads LGBT+ books and thinks it is just the sexual content they are upset about when it is more about what drew their attention in the first place.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Should be pretty easy to disprove if you have access to the school libraries.  My guess is you are right as straight sexual content is familiar and doesn’t register as sexual content probably for some where if queer, it jumps out for them because it’s unfamiliar, so it just gets more attention automatically. Or a parent just isn’t concerned about books dealing with straight relationships, but picks up and reads LGBT+ books and thinks it is just the sexual content they are upset about when it is more about what drew their attention in the first place.

I wish school wasn't out and I would ask each librarian at the elementary schools what the protocol is. I don't want sexually explicit books on the shelves for children. I'm not that far gone.   

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish school wasn't out and I would ask each librarian at the elementary schools what the protocol is. I don't want sexually explicit books on the shelves for children. I'm not that far gone.   

If it could have stopped that fifth grader and others like her from getting pregnant in sixth grade while not causing others to get pregnant, I think I would be all for explicitness.  Unfortunately I don’t think the solution is that easy.

[webbles]

Davis County publishes the list of books that they are reviewing and what their decision was.  Go to https://www.davis.k12.ut.us/academics/library/library and then click on the "Sensitive Material" tab.

I checked the completed review items and here's a bunch of the books that had completed reviews and their results:

• Fade (#2 Wake) - Lisa McMann - Retained
• Books 1-4 of A Court of Thorns and Roses - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• All Boys Aren't Blue - George Johnson - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Allegedly - Tiffany D. Jackson - Retained for High School
• Beyond Magenta - Sarah Kuklin - Retained
• Collateral - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Book 1 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Book 2 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Damsel - Elana Arnold - Banned
• Deogratias: A Tale of Rwanda - Jean-Phillipe Stassen - Banned
• Eleanor and Park - Rainbow Rowell - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Emergency Contact - Mary H.K. Choi - Banned
• Book 5 and 7 of Throne of Glass - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Johnathan Safran Foer - Retained for High School
• Fallout - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Go Ask Alice - Beatrice Sparks - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• House of Earth and Blood - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Infandous - Elana K. Arnold - Banned
• Last Night at the Telegraph Club - Malinda Lo - Retained for High School
• Laura Dean Keeps Breaking up with Me - Mariko Tamaki - Retained
• Lawn Boy - Jonathan Evison - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• Me, Earl, and the Dying Girl - Jesse Andrews - Retained
• Milk and Honey - Rupi Kaur - Banned
• Monday's Not Coming - Tiffany D. Jackson - Banned, Appealed, Retained in High School and Jr. High School
• Neanderthal Opens the Door to the Universe - Preston Norton - Banned
• Oryx and Crake - Margaret Atwood - Banned
• Red, White & Royal Blue - Casey McQuistion - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Rumble - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Shine - Lauren Myracle - Banned
• Sold - Patrick McCormick - Retained, Appealed, Retained in High School
• The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian - Sherman Alexie - Banned, Waiting on Appeal

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish school wasn't out and I would ask each librarian at the elementary schools what the protocol is. I don't want sexually explicit books on the shelves for children. I'm not that far gone.   

I don’t think anyone here wants non-age appropriate stuff in school libraries. We might have different thoughts on where that is. If this were a good faith effort to make sure stuff is age-appropriate I might find it silly but wouldn’t much care. It is not. It is about making sure LGBT kids feel as isolated as possible. Keep them away from potential heroes and role models in books. Make sure teachers and counselors and nurses can’t help them and have to snitch on them. Teachers are mandatory reporters of child abuse and also mandatory reporters to parents of things that might cause child abuse.

There is a reason there is a huge exodus of teachers from Florida.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

. It is about making sure LGBT kids feel as isolated as possible.

Are you saying that is the actual intent or it’s a direct byproduct of what is feared that exposure might cause, as in causing kids to engage in sane sex relationships?

I find it hard to believe the vast majority of parents are malicious enough to want to cause any kid to feel isolated.  At worst they don’t care if a kid feels isolated or not.  Otoh, they may actually want certain kids isolated because they see them as potential sources of issues for their own kids, as in cause their kids to have ideas and act in ways the parent doesn’t want them to have or act and if that leaves an LGBT kid feeling isolated, that is unfortunate but necessary in their view.  It is essentially another form of segregation, similar to how pregnant girls were pulled out of regular classes back when I was in high school.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying that is the actual intent or it’s a direct byproduct of what is feared that exposure might cause, as in causing kids to engage in sane sex relationships?

I find it hard to believe the vast majority of parents are malicious enough to want to cause any kid to feel isolated.  At worst they don’t care if a kid feels isolated or not.  Otoh, they may actually want certain kids isolated because they see them as potential sources of issues for their own kids, as in cause their kids to have ideas and act in ways the parent doesn’t want them to have or act and if that leaves an LGBT kid feeling isolated, that is unfortunate but necessary in their view.  It is essentially another form of segregation, similar to how pregnant girls were pulled out of regular classes back when I was in high school.

It is the intent of those crafting the laws. I have no idea what the parents think. Most of them aren’t thinking. Thinking isn’t common when it comes to a moral panic. Remember when D&D set off that rash of child murders? Or when switchblades killed more people than guns and were a threat to civilization as a whole? Or when the immigrant caravan of monstrous illegals were at our gates and then stole all our women and raped our horses?

Edited June 5, 2023 by The Nehor

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

raped our horses?

https://tenor.com/bZEVr.gif

ETA: how do I put a meme in a post?

Edited June 5, 2023 by MiserereNobis

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

Davis County publishes the list of books that they are reviewing and what their decision was.  Go to https://www.davis.k12.ut.us/academics/library/library and then click on the "Sensitive Material" tab.

I checked the completed review items and here's a bunch of the books that had completed reviews and their results:

• Fade (#2 Wake) - Lisa McMann - Retained
• Books 1-4 of A Court of Thorns and Roses - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• All Boys Aren't Blue - George Johnson - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Allegedly - Tiffany D. Jackson - Retained for High School
• Beyond Magenta - Sarah Kuklin - Retained
• Collateral - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Book 1 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Book 2 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Damsel - Elana Arnold - Banned
• Deogratias: A Tale of Rwanda - Jean-Phillipe Stassen - Banned
• Eleanor and Park - Rainbow Rowell - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Emergency Contact - Mary H.K. Choi - Banned
• Book 5 and 7 of Throne of Glass - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Johnathan Safran Foer - Retained for High School
• Fallout - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Go Ask Alice - Beatrice Sparks - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• House of Earth and Blood - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Infandous - Elana K. Arnold - Banned
• Last Night at the Telegraph Club - Malinda Lo - Retained for High School
• Laura Dean Keeps Breaking up with Me - Mariko Tamaki - Retained
• Lawn Boy - Jonathan Evison - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• Me, Earl, and the Dying Girl - Jesse Andrews - Retained
• Milk and Honey - Rupi Kaur - Banned
• Monday's Not Coming - Tiffany D. Jackson - Banned, Appealed, Retained in High School and Jr. High School
• Neanderthal Opens the Door to the Universe - Preston Norton - Banned
• Oryx and Crake - Margaret Atwood - Banned
• Red, White & Royal Blue - Casey McQuistion - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Rumble - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Shine - Lauren Myracle - Banned
• Sold - Patrick McCormick - Retained, Appealed, Retained in High School
• The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian - Sherman Alexie - Banned, Waiting on Appeal

 

 

 

Out of this list the only one that I've read personally is Eleanor and Park.  I'm guessing it being reviewed due to the language but it's been ten years at least since I've read it so maybe I'm forgetting something.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

Davis County publishes the list of books that they are reviewing and what their decision was.  Go to https://www.davis.k12.ut.us/academics/library/library and then click on the "Sensitive Material" tab.

I checked the completed review items and here's a bunch of the books that had completed reviews and their results:

• Fade (#2 Wake) - Lisa McMann - Retained
• Books 1-4 of A Court of Thorns and Roses - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• All Boys Aren't Blue - George Johnson - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Allegedly - Tiffany D. Jackson - Retained for High School
• Beyond Magenta - Sarah Kuklin - Retained
• Collateral - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Book 1 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Book 2 of Crank - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Damsel - Elana Arnold - Banned
• Deogratias: A Tale of Rwanda - Jean-Phillipe Stassen - Banned
• Eleanor and Park - Rainbow Rowell - Retained, Waiting on Appeal
• Emergency Contact - Mary H.K. Choi - Banned
• Book 5 and 7 of Throne of Glass - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Johnathan Safran Foer - Retained for High School
• Fallout - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Go Ask Alice - Beatrice Sparks - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• House of Earth and Blood - Sarah J. Maas - Banned
• Infandous - Elana K. Arnold - Banned
• Last Night at the Telegraph Club - Malinda Lo - Retained for High School
• Laura Dean Keeps Breaking up with Me - Mariko Tamaki - Retained
• Lawn Boy - Jonathan Evison - Banned, Waiting on Appeal
• Me, Earl, and the Dying Girl - Jesse Andrews - Retained
• Milk and Honey - Rupi Kaur - Banned
• Monday's Not Coming - Tiffany D. Jackson - Banned, Appealed, Retained in High School and Jr. High School
• Neanderthal Opens the Door to the Universe - Preston Norton - Banned
• Oryx and Crake - Margaret Atwood - Banned
• Red, White & Royal Blue - Casey McQuistion - Banned, Appealed, Banned
• Rumble - Ellen Hopkins - Banned
• Shine - Lauren Myracle - Banned
• Sold - Patrick McCormick - Retained, Appealed, Retained in High School
• The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian - Sherman Alexie - Banned, Waiting on Appeal

 

 

 

We can always count on you webbles! I should have thought to go to the website, it's my employer.🙄 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

https://tenor.com/bZEVr.gif

ETA: how do I put a meme in a post?

You right-click on the image you want and select "Copy Image Address", and that's the link you paste into the post:

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is the intent of those crafting the laws. 

Why would these lawmakers care about how the LGBT kids feel, especially wanting them to feel isolated?

Edited June 5, 2023 by Calm

[california boy]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

There is some truth to what you say, and I agree that trying to keep our children in a bubble isn't going to work.  I believe in a much more holistic approach.  I think it is important for parents to understand that we are not going to be able to completely keep potentially harmful materials and substances out of the reach of our children, but that doesn't mean that we should make it easily accessible in the domains that we can control for.  If I was to take your philosophy and position in an absolute sense, then any material such as porn, or any substance/drug, or weapon should not have mandated age-appropriate guidelines/restrictions for consumption or use - because if they really wanted it they could find it easy enough, right? 
 

I like your idea, but the truth is even in your extreme example, pornography IS easily available to an elementary student   And the books that are being banned (including the Bible) are FAR from actual pornography 

 

21 hours ago, pogi said:

I believe the right way is a more balanced approach that limits accessibility but also does as you suggest and has healthy conversations with their children about these materials or substances.   I just had the porn talk with my 7 year old last week, knowing that I was exposed to it at an even younger age.  I was careful not to present it as a "forbidden fruit" or as "evil", or even "bad", knowing that my kids will eventually be exposed to it, and will likely be intrigued, aroused, and curious by it.  So, presenting it as evil is a sure way to set them up for toxic shame for liking it.  They shouldn't feel any shame for that.  That is normal and they need to know it.  I taught him that the human body is beautiful and there is nothing wrong with being attracted to it. But I also taught him that there are safe and more dangerous ways to see or use just about everything, just like medicine.  That is why there are child-protective lids on medicine bottles, because unintentional accidents happen, and we want to limit those accidents from happening as much as possible. 
 

I think THIS is by far a better way of dealing with these issues and is the responsibility of the parents.  Unfortunately it is much easier to push it off on the nanny state.  If anything this approach is more deceiving because it gives the false impression that the issue of what kids are viewing has been taken care of. 

21 hours ago, pogi said:

I think that a completely libertarian approach with elementary aged children is not safe or appropriate.  These are not adults with fully developed brains capable of making sound judgment.  As much as we praise liberty of choice, my kids don't have a choice about wearing a seat belt if they want to ride in my car.  Does that make me a terrible and restrictive parent?    Even if a child wanted to avoid certain materials and content in books, it may not be immediately possible to judge a book by its cover - and that is often all they have to go off of.  It is up to the district to provide only age-appropriate materials for that reason.

It is not about keeping our kids in a bubble and trying to control everything that they are exposed to throughout their lives, it is about limiting and preventing accidental and unnecessary exposure where possible, and also teaching our children about correct choices and how to respond to exposure throughout their lives, knowing that all of this stuff is accessible if they want.  But while they are in elementary, it is not that easy to find on their own, so let's not make it available in our schools if it is age-inappropriate material.

I understand that some parents may be wanting to take this to the extreme and use these libraries as a weapon in the culture wars, but that is no reason to take the opposite extreme and make our school libraries a free-for-all with no oversight or guidelines for content whatsoever. 

 

Of course I believe in regulating age appropriate material, alcohol,smoking, seat belts etc is appropriate.  I guess I am very skeptical that the books being banned isn’t more a cultural war issue.  
 

it would be helpful if there was some data to support this very sensitive issue of book banning instead of it all being emotional based. Maybe some exists?   Are there more or less pregnancies in Florida than California for example?   And is the difference great enough to resort to book banning. 

[california boy]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you saying that is the actual intent or it’s a direct byproduct of what is feared that exposure might cause, as in causing kids to engage in sane sex relationships?

I find it hard to believe the vast majority of parents are malicious enough to want to cause any kid to feel isolated.  At worst they don’t care if a kid feels isolated or not.  Otoh, they may actually want certain kids isolated because they see them as potential sources of issues for their own kids, as in cause their kids to have ideas and act in ways the parent doesn’t want them to have or act and if that leaves an LGBT kid feeling isolated, that is unfortunate but necessary in their view.  It is essentially another form of segregation, similar to how pregnant girls were pulled out of regular classes back when I was in high school.

I believe that there are a lot of parents out there who still believe that if their child doesn’t hear about LGBT issues, especially sex issues, their child will not become gay.  And yes makings being gay appear to be more isolating and not normal is part of that belief

Honestly whether book banning happens is not going to make much difference on moral decisions a child will make.  They get those morals from their parents   The truth is being gay, the last thing I would have done is check out a book from the school library.  Way too scared someone would think I might be gay.  And besides what kid thinks the first place to find information on any subject is books
 

Banning books are more for the parents. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by california boy

[Teancum]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:15 AM, teddyaware said:

Talk about a knee jerk, Pavlovian response! While the  book banning described in the article is undoubtedly being carried out in response to pressure from a left wing progressive,’ you appear to immediately disregard this inconvenient fact and then start complaining about traditional American parents who are being unfairly characterized as ‘book burners’ because they don’t want their young children exposed to the woke oriented pornography that’s currently popping up in books in school libraries all around the country. 

While my guess is these requests are from the more liberal side of the fence it is likely in response to the right wingers that are getting all sorts of books banned in all sorts of places.  Take Florida for example. And a left wing person in Florida is trying to get the Bible banned based on the criteria that right wingers are using to ban books in Florida.  And the dude has a point.  Based on the right wingers criteria the Bible ought to be banned.  After all it has stories that perhaps one could classify as woke oriented pornography.  Is that even a thing?

 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

I like your idea, but the truth is even in your extreme example, pornography IS easily available to an elementary student   And the books that are being banned (including the Bible) are FAR from actual pornography 

I understand that it is accessible, but that doesn't mean we should make it easier.  The Bible was banned for violence and vulgarity.  It's hard to get more violent than the Bible, honestly.  I agree with keeping it out of elementary schools unless they have a child-version.  What elementary kid could really read and understand the language in King James anyway?  Totally age-inappropriate on many different levels. 

6 hours ago, california boy said:

I think THIS is by far a better way of dealing with these issues and is the responsibility of the parents.  Unfortunately it is much easier to push it off on the nanny state.  If anything this approach is more deceiving because it gives the false impression that the issue of what kids are viewing has been taken care of. 

Of course I believe in regulating age appropriate material, alcohol,smoking, seat belts etc is appropriate.  I guess I am very skeptical that the books being banned isn’t more a cultural war issue.  
 

it would be helpful if there was some data to support this very sensitive issue of book banning instead of it all being emotional based. Maybe some exists?   Are there more or less pregnancies in Florida than California for example?   And is the difference great enough to resort to book banning. 

I am pretty sure that it is very much about cultural war issues at this point, unfortunately.  I am not commenting on the specific books that have been banned, nor am I suggesting that I agree with the choices that have been made - I don't know enough about the content in these specific books to comment on that.   My comments are simply directed at the knee-jerk reaction to take the equal and opposite response of fighting to remove all "bans".  I disagree completely with that position.  What I would like to know is what criteria they are using to decide which books are age appropriate or not.  As you state, providing age-appropriate material is a good thing.

Edited June 5, 2023 by pogi

[gopher]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Out of this list the only one that I've read personally is Eleanor and Park.  I'm guessing it being reviewed due to the language but it's been ten years at least since I've read it so maybe I'm forgetting something.

One problem is that some of the books were written for adults, not middle school or even high school students.  The author of Lawn Boy which is on the list - Jonathan Evison, for example, posted this: 

Quote

It is worth noting that the book, which was intended for an adult audience, found some crossover success due in part to winning an Alex Award from the ALA’s Young Adult Library Services Association for “books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults, ages 12 through 18″

One part that some find objectionable is when the main character describes as a 4th grader he performed oral sex on another 10 year old boy.  It also contains 44 instances of f*ck and 42 instances of sh*t in the book (someone actually counted).

Possibly the solution is to not allow parents to be involved in their children's education.  And trust the teachers to choose reading material for their students without notifying parents so they won't have a chance to read the books themselves.  In a recent gubernatorial election, one candidate stated, "I don't think parents should be telling schools what they should teach".  That seems to be a very non-controversial position to take.

 

[gopher]

On 6/3/2023 at 1:43 PM, The Nehor said:

Yep, and a lot of the people screaming at school board meetings don’t live in the district they are complaining about and/or don’t have kids in the school system.

Even more amusing is when parents get kicked out of school board meetings for reading aloud passages from the books their children are assigned to read in their classes.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, gopher said:

One problem is that some of the books were written for adults, not middle school or even high school students.  The author of Lawn Boy which is on the list - Jonathan Evison, for example, posted this: 

One part that some find objectionable is when the main character describes as a 4th grader he performed oral sex on another 10 year old boy.  It also contains 44 instances of f*ck and 42 instances of sh*t in the book (someone actually counted).

Possibly the solution is to not allow parents to be involved in their children's education.  And trust the teachers to choose reading material for their students without notifying parents so they won't have a chance to read the books themselves.  In a recent gubernatorial election, one candidate stated, "I don't think parents should be telling schools what they should teach".  That seems to be a very non-controversial position to take.

 

One of the issues that I have with some books that teachers assign (leaving out the issue of them just existing in the library) is that these books often break the rules of the school.  Like with swearing, for example.  In every school that I'm aware of, it is against the rules to use the F word.  So assigning a book that you could not read out loud at the school is problematic.

Another issue is that movies with adult content require parental consent, so saying that books with adult content don't (with content that can be much worse than any movie that would ever be allowed) is another problem.

I'm not in favor of banning books but I can recognize that it's a difficult subject to navigate in schools.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, gopher said:

Even more amusing is when parents get kicked out of school board meetings for reading aloud passages from the books their children are assigned to read in their classes.

It's amusing in a "I can't believe this is the world we live in" way.

[Tacenda]

Maybe it's a good thing most of my children weren't great readers, wouldn't want them reading the book "Lawn Boy", at a young age. I shouldn't judge it all on oral sex or the F word but sometimes it's difficult not to.

 

29 minutes ago, gopher said:

One problem is that some of the books were written for adults, not middle school or even high school students.  The author of Lawn Boy which is on the list - Jonathan Evison, for example, posted this: 

One part that some find objectionable is when the main character describes as a 4th grader he performed oral sex on another 10 year old boy.  It also contains 44 instances of f*ck and 42 instances of sh*t in the book (someone actually counted).

Possibly the solution is to not allow parents to be involved in their children's education.  And trust the teachers to choose reading material for their students without notifying parents so they won't have a chance to read the books themselves.  In a recent gubernatorial election, one candidate stated, "I don't think parents should be telling schools what they should teach".  That seems to be a very non-controversial position to take.

 

 

[Teancum]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:29 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

Which books did Utah ban? It's not making national news.

Nobody but Utahns care about Utah. 😁😉

[gopher]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

One of the issues that I have with some books that teachers assign (leaving out the issue of them just existing in the library) is that these books often break the rules of the school.  Like with swearing, for example.  In every school that I'm aware of, it is against the rules to use the F word.  So assigning a book that you could not read out loud at the school is problematic.

Another issue is that movies with adult content require parental consent, so saying that books with adult content don't (with content that can be much worse than any movie that would ever be allowed) is another problem.

I'm not in favor of banning books but I can recognize that it's a difficult subject to navigate in schools.

I still trying to understand why parents who object to some of these books are being vilified.  Sure, go after the politicians and advocacy groups who are using this for their own purposes.  But what's wrong with parents who want their kids to read good books that don't include profanity, sexual and anti-religious themes, drugs and alcohol abuse, etc.  One local school this year did allow the 8th grade class to read a different book in class if they didn't want to read The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, which contains profanity, racist language (including the N-word), references to sex with animals, masturbation, etc.

Is there really a shortage of good books for kids to read today?  I'm not in favor of banning books either, but why are so many insisting on putting adult books in our schools?  If an adult wants to read a book about a 10 year boy performing oral sex on another boy, why not put that book in the adult section of the library?  It's getting creepy to see how many adults want our youth to read some of these books.