Popular Post smac97 Posted November 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 7, 2022 Interesting: Quote Archivists at Western Illinois University have unearthed a rare document written by the founder of Mormonism. A certificate by Joseph Smith, the first president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, bears witness to his officiating a McDonough County marriage between Graham Coltrin and Fanny Davis in 1839. It was first noticed a few years ago by WIU senior library specialist Bill Cook among a trove of materials that were part of the university's Illinois Regional Archives Depositories collection. He was surprised to realize it seemed to be an actual Smith-written document. "We have a lot of important historical documents in our archives and not all of it has been cataloged," according to Michael Lorenzen, coordinator of Archives and Special Collections at WIU. "We are still finding important, primary material to complement the many documents we know about." After verifying its authenticity, the university showed the document to researchers from the Joseph Smith Papers Project. The project is part of the church's Salt Lake City, Utah, headquarters that "is an effort to gather together all extant Joseph Smith documents and to publish complete and accurate transcripts of those documents with both textual and contextual annotation," according to its website. ... The document is part of the Archives and Special Collections section on the sixth floor of Malpass Library at Western Illinois. The project was provided with a digital copy. So it sounds like it has no particular historical or doctrinal import. Nevertheless, I admire the commitment by those running JSPP to "gather together all extant Joseph Smith documents" and publish them to the world. Criticisms about whitewashing/hiding our history are becoming less significant as time goes by and the Church improves in this regard. Thanks, -Smac 8 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 2 hours ago, smac97 said: Interesting: So it sounds like it has no particular historical or doctrinal import. Nevertheless, I admire the commitment by those running JSPP to "gather together all extant Joseph Smith documents" and publish them to the world. Criticisms about whitewashing/hiding our history are becoming less significant as time goes by and the Church improves in this regard. Thanks, -Smac Phew! Glad that historians have once again proven that the church is still true!! 1 Link to comment
JAHS Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) Marriage Certificate for Graham Coltrin and Fanny Davis, 22 June 1839, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org) They sure had much better handwriting skills than I ever had. ETA they even show the backside of the document Edited November 7, 2022 by JAHS 3 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, JAHS said: ... ETA they even show the backside of the document Well! I never! Of all of the places to see a backside! I never thought I'd see one at Mormon Dialogue and Discussion! Ahem! Yes ... well ... carry on! 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Well! I never! Of all of the places to see a backside! I never thought I'd see one at Mormon Dialogue and Discussion! Ahem! Yes ... well ... carry on! You are the comedic side kick to a lot of posts on here Ken! 😄 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: You are the comedic side kick to a lot of posts on here Ken! 😄 Cue rimshot! Thanks! You're a great audience. I'll be here all week. Try the chicken. It's delicious! 1 Link to comment
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted November 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, smac97 said: Criticisms about whitewashing/hiding our history are becoming less significant as time goes by and the Church improves in this regard. Not trying to be critical since I do believe the Church is improving and the JSPP is absolutely awesome. But the improvements are in the scholarly community. They're available for the average member to read but only if they research. Where the improvements are really needed are in Church. The lesson manuals etc are so dumbed down and simplified that learning varies radically ward to ward based on if the teachers bother to research elsewhere. So unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains. Edited November 8, 2022 by JLHPROF 7 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Not trying to be critical since I do believe the Church is improving and the JSPP is absolutely awesome. But the improvements are in the scholarly community. They're available for the average member to read but only if they research. Where the improvements are really needed are in Church. The lesson manuals etc are so dumbed down and simplified that learning varies radically ward to ward based on if the teachers bother to research elsewhere. So unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains. So needed! Link to comment
Calm Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Not trying to be critical since I do believe the Church is improving and the JSPP is absolutely awesome. But the improvements are in the scholarly community. They're available for the average member to read but only if they research. Where the improvements are really needed are in Church. The lesson manuals etc are so dumbed down and simplified that learning varies radically ward to ward based on if the teachers bother to research elsewhere. So unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains. I was thinking you were being a bit over critical because there was Saints and revelations in context, but they are not actually linked to the lessons, are they? 1 Link to comment
InCognitus Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, Calm said: I was thinking you were being a bit over critical because there was Saints and revelations in context, but they are not actually linked to the lessons, are they? But they are! For example, here's one from the lesson on Doctrine and Covenants section 76 from the 2021 Come Follow Me manual: "See Saints, 1:147–50; “The Vision,” Revelations in Context, 148–54." 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 Thank you! I must just have been unlucky and chosen a few lessons without them (or was having problems registering what I was reading which is always possible) when I went to double-check my memory they were attached. I was very disappointed. Now I am not. 1 Link to comment
InCognitus Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 23 minutes ago, Calm said: Thank you! I must just have been unlucky and chosen a few lessons without them (or was having problems registering what I was reading which is always possible) when I went to double-check my memory they were attached. I was very disappointed. Now I am not. That was one lesson that I knew there was a Revelations in Context article on that topic. There's not a Revelations in Context article for every single lesson topic of course, but if you do it in reverse by looking at the Revelations in Context articles, you'll find that the lesson that covers the particular D&C section(s) listed at the top of the article also has a reference to Revelations in Context in the lesson material for Individuals and Families. I didn't see it referenced as often in the Sunday School version of Come Follow Me, however. But I think there is a Saints reference in every single lesson in the Individuals and Families manual. 2 Link to comment
Judd Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 This will be a helpful piece of evidence for future apologists when the “Joseph Smith as allegorical and not historical” phase of enlightenment takes off. 3 Link to comment
Popular Post smac97 Posted November 8, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2022 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Quote Criticisms about whitewashing/hiding our history are becoming less significant as time goes by and the Church improves in this regard. Not trying to be critical since I do believe the Church is improving and the JSPP is absolutely awesome. But the improvements are in the scholarly community. They're available for the average member to read but only if they research. Where the improvements are really needed are in Church. The lesson manuals etc are so dumbed down and simplified that learning varies radically ward to ward based on if the teachers bother to research elsewhere. So unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains. I am curious as to your thoughts about Richard L. Bushman's assessment of the Church's "narrative," as in the one being advanced by the institutional Church: As you may know, in September John Dehlin had Latter-day Saint scholar on his podcast, which led to a discussion about whether there has been some sort of informal boycott of Dehlin's podcast by Latter-day Saint scholars. At the time I speculated that if such a boycott is going on, it may be "responsive to Dehlin's behavior relative to Dr. Richard Bushman." I proceeded to lay out the chronology of Bushman's stance on the "narrative" of the Church, beginning with his well-known comment back in 2016 forward to 2021. In June 2016, Dr. Bushman (and his wife, Claudia) spoke at a “Faith Again” fireside at the home of Elizabeth and Mark England. Here is, I think, the most relevant portion of Dr. Bushman's remarks: Quote Questioner: In your view do you see room in Mormonism for several narratives of a religious experience or do you think that in order for the Church to remain strong they would have to hold to that dominant narrative? Richard Bushman: I think that for the Church to remain strong it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true; it can’t be sustained. The Church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very shaky grounds and that's what it is trying to do and it will be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change. This resulted in a number of comments by various persons, such as Neal Rappleye, Daniel Peterson, John Dehlin, and Bushman himself. Bushman clarified his position to rebut rumors about his position (published by Mormon Stories in July 2016, and later on Peterson's blog that same month) : Quote Eventually I learned it all began with the transcript of a comment I made at a fireside at Mark England’s house a little over a month ago and posted by John Dehlin. Sampling a few of the comments on Dan Peterson’s blog I discovered that some people thought I had thrown in the towel and finally admitted the Church’s story of its divine origins did not hold up. Others read my words differently; I was only saying that there were many errors in the standard narrative that required correction. The reactions should not have surprised me. People have had different takes on Rough Stone Rolling ever since it came out. Some found the information about Joseph Smith so damning his prophethood was thrown into question. Others were grateful to find a prophet who had human flaws, giving them hope they themselves could qualify for inspiration despite their human weaknesses. The same facts; opposite reactions. The different responses mystify me. I have no idea why some people are thrown for a loop when they learn church history did not occur as they had been taught in Sunday School, while others roll with the punches. Some feel angry and betrayed; others are pleased to have a more realistic account. One theorist has postulated an “emotional over-ride” that affects how we respond to information. But the admission that we ourselves are subjective human beings whose rational mechanisms are not entirely trustworthy does not diminish our sense that we are right and our counterparts mistaken. As it is, I still come down on the side of the believers in inspiration and divine happenings—in angels, plates, translations, revelations—while others viewing the same facts are convinced they disqualify Joseph Smith entirely. A lot of pain, anger, and alienation come out of these disputes. I wish we could find ways to be more generous and understanding with one another. See also here (additional comments from Bushman published on Peterson's blog in July 2016) : Quote As I indicated earlier today, some have taken a recent remark from the distinguished Latter-day Saint historian Richard L. Bushman, Gouverneur Morris Professor of History emeritus at Columbia University in New York City and former Howard W. Hunter Professor at Claremont Graduate University, as signaling that he’s backing away to some degree or another from at least certain of the foundational claims of the Restoration. With his permission, I share a note that I’ve just received from him. I think that it will clarify things considerably: Thanks for coming to my rescue Dan. I had begun to pick up indications of these exchanges a few days ago. I have been using the phrase “reconstruct the narrative” in recent talks because that is exactly what the Church is doing right now. The Joseph Smith Papers offer a reconstructed narrative, so do some of the “Gospel Topics” essays. The short First Vision film in the Church Museum of History mentions six accounts of Joseph’s experience and draws on all of them. That is all reconstructing the narrative. I got the phrase from a young woman who reported that she and her husband had both been through faith crises. She had come back; he had remained alienated. But both of them had to reconstruct the narrative. We have to include, for example, the fact that that the first words to Joseph in the First Vision were: “Your sins are forgiven.” That makes us look again at his life and realize how important a part forgiveness played. Similarly, we now have assimilated seer stones into the translation story. A picture of a seer stone now appears in the Church History Museum display. That would not have happened even five years ago. The list goes on and on. I consider Rough Stone Rolling a reconstructed narrative. It was shocking to some people. They could not bear to have the old story disrupted in any way. What I was getting at in the quoted passage is that we must be willing to modify the account according to newly authenticated facts. If we don’t we will weaken our position. Unfortunately, not everyone can adjust to this new material. Many think they were deceived and the church was lying. That is not a fair judgment in my opinion. The whole church, from top to bottom, has had to adjust to the findings of our historians. We are all having to reconstruct. In my opinion, nothing in the new material overturns the basic thrust of the story. I still believe in gold plates. I don’t think Joseph Smith could have dictated the Book of Mormon text without inspiration. I think he was sincere in saying he saw God. The glimpse Joseph Smith gives us of divine interest in humankind is still a source of hope in an unbelieving world. If anyone has questions about what I believe, I would be happy to hear from him or her. I believe pretty much the same things I did sixty years ago when I was a missionary. (Bolded/underlined/italicized emphasis added.) Fast-forward to October 2019, I emailed Dr. Bushman to notify him that Kay Burningham, a former member of the Church and an attorney, had quoted him in legal documents in the Gaddy lawsuit against the Church (initially sent to a common acquaintance, who then forwarded it directly to Dr. Bushman) : Quote I don't know if you are aware, but the Church has recently been named as the defendant in a federal lawsuit filed in Salt Lake by a former member of the Church (Laura Gaddy). The attorney representing Ms. Gaddy is Kay Burningham, the author of a 2011 book, An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case against Mormonism (in other words, she has an axe to grind with the Church). The lawsuit is an attempt to create a class action against the Church based on a theory of "fraud," with the "fraud" being many of the foundational narrative elements taught in the Church (such as the First Vision, the translation of The Book of Mormon, and the translation of The Book of Abraham). The Church retained counsel, which filed a Motion to Dismiss based primarily on the "Church Autonomy Doctrine" (also called the "Ecclesiastical Abstention" doctrine). The gist of this is that secular courts are prohibited by the First Amendment from adjudicating claims or disputes pertaining to religious doctrines and beliefs. Ms. Burningham hopes to circumvent this by arguing that they are not challenging the Church's doctrines/beliefs, but are instead challenging as false the Church's "factual" narrative pertaining to the First Vision, etc. Yesterday Ms. Burningham filed a response to the Church's Motion to Dismiss. She starts the motion by quoting "a prominent Columbia professor, considered the foremost scholar regarding Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith." That scholar, the brief states, is "Richard L. Bauman," who is quoted as saying "that for the Church to remain strong it has to reconstruct its narrative," and that "[t]he dominant narrative is not true; it can't be sustained." I'm not sure how significant this is, but I thought Dr. Bushman might want to know about how his 2016 remark is being (mis)characterized in the above-referenced lawsuit. (Emphasis added.) Dr. Bushman responded to my email in which he expressed to me sentiments very similar to those conveyed to Dr. Peterson back in 2016 (see above). Shortly thereafter Dr. Bushman copied me on correspondence to third parties in which he stated that that the "dominant narrative" quote has been used to imply that he has lost confidence in the basic history of the Church, that he was correcting that suggestion, that the statement does not accurately convey his belief or what he intended to say, that he meant that errors had crept into the accounting of the Church's early history and needed to be straightened out, and that the Church has "'reconstructed the narrative'" by publishing Saints ("In my opinion, Church authors have 'reconstructed the narrative' in the recently published volume of Saints."). So to sum up, Bushman - who seems to have started the whole "reconstruct the dominant narrative" thing back in 2016 - has stated that the rumors that he had renounced his faith in the foundational truth claims of the Restored Gospel are false, he remains "on the side of the believers in inspiration and divine happenings—in angels, plates, translations, revelations,." "the Church was lying {about its history}" claim being bandied about is "not a fair judgment," his "dominant narrative" comment is being inaccurately construed as him admitting that he has lost confidence in the basic history of the Church, what he had meant was that some errors had crept into our popularized accounts of the early history of the Church, and that these errors should be straightened out, the entirety of the Church, "from top to bottom," has needed to "reconstruct" our historical narrative so as to "adjust to the findings of our historians," and the Church has done what he had been proposing, that it has produced a "reconstructed narrative" of the history of the Church by publishing Saints, the Joseph Smith Papers project, the Gospel Topics Essays, and so on. Based on this, I must respectfully disagree somewhat with your comment that "{w}here the improvements are really needed are in Church," and that "unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains." I think the Church has been working hard to provide members with meaningful and substantive resources which provide a considerably improved "narrative" of our history. The resources Bushman has specifically credited as reconstructing the narrative (Saints, Volume 1 ("The Standard of Truth, 1815–1846"), Volume 2 ("No Unhallowed Hand, 1846–1893") and Volume 3 ("Boldly, Nobly, and Independent, 1893–1955"), the Joseph Smith Papers Project, the Gospel Topics essays - 14 in all) are freely available to the world online. Additionally, the "Church History" section of the Church's website includes many other resources that I think Bushman would construe as even further reconstructing the narrative: Saints Podcast (112 episodes over three seasons, and counting) Historical Sources (extensive information about the Doctrine & Covenants) Revelations in Context ("The Stories behind the Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants") Joseph Smith's Revelations ("A Doctrine and Covenants Study Companion from the Joseph Smith Papers") Joseph Smith Papers Podcasts (14 episodes) First Vision (examining the various accounts of the First Vision) Prophets of the Restoration (extensive biographies of all presidents of the Church) Church History Topics (brief but annotated treatments of dozens of Church History items) Answers to Church History Questions (answering questions about difficult areas of Church history, such as Mountain Meadows, treatment of Native Americans, translation of the Book of Abraham, the Kirtland Safety Society, polygamy, etc.) Stories from Saints (discussion of various "local" stories about members of the Church and how they have influenced both the Church and history generally) Global Histories (extensive historical summaries of the Church throughout the world) At the Pulpit ("185 Years of Discourses by Latter-day Saint Women") The First Fifty Years of Relief Society Daughters in My Kingdom ("The History and Work of Relief Society") Moreover, the Church also maintains https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/, which includes all of the foregoing historical resources plus many more: The Church Historian’s Press ("Search diaries, journals, discourses and documents") Pioneers in Every Land (various resources about members throughout the world) Joseph Smith (extensive resources about Joseph's life and ministry) The Trek West (various maps, stories, etc.) Museum Treasures ("Learn about the art and artifacts available at the Church History Museum.") Perspectives on Church History ("Explore insights on the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.") Experience Church History (selections from exhibits and materials housed in the Church History Museum) Research Church History Collections (links to the Church History Library, Church History Catalog, Church History Biographical Database, Treasures of the {Church History Museum} Collection, Pioneer Resources) Church History Museum ("Discover the spiritual, artistic, and cultural legacies of the Latter-day Saints.") Church Historic Sites Way back in the 1990s, I returned from my mission and found that my dad had purchased "LDS Infobases," a collection of Church history/doctrine publications and materials originally published in 1993 (with perhaps other iterations published earlier than that). I was amazed at having access to something like 1,800 books on these discs, all searchable! Back then individual members really did have to go "looking for scholarship," but for the last many decades there has been a huge improvement in readily-available resources, including various free resources published by the Church which - as Bushman put it - "reconstruct" and improve past recitations of our history. Regarding your comment about "the problem of an uninformed membership," I agree that this is still with us. But the scriptural mandate that we seek “out of the best books words of wisdom” and “seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118) has been with us since 1832 or so. Past generations of church members might have understandably lacked the means and resources to extensively study the history of the Church (and this still may be the case for members who live in other parts of the world and do not yet have access to these resources). However, in 2022, the average English-speaking Latter-day Saint with Internet access doesn't have much of an excuse to remain "uninformed" about the history and doctrines of the Church, particularly given the Church's efforts to augment the Scriptures with feely-available "best books" such as the foregoing resources (as well as various other efforts by members of the Church, such as FARMS, FAIR, Interpreter, hundreds of individual authors, etc.). I credit the Church for these efforts. Thanks, -Smac 6 Link to comment
Thinking Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 10:24 AM, smac97 said: Criticisms about whitewashing/hiding our history are becoming less significant as time goes by and the Church improves in this regard. If the Church is improving in this regard, then it needed to improve. That the Church needed to improve means that at some level it was whitewashing/hiding parts of its history. 2 Link to comment
JAHS Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 58 minutes ago, Thinking said: If the Church is improving in this regard, then it needed to improve. That the Church needed to improve means that at some level it was whitewashing/hiding parts of its history. The word "needed" is dependent on each individual's point of view and opinion. I don't think it was needed, but having it all is.... interesting, as Spock would say. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Saw this on my private FB group posted on Faith Journey, I wondered what those of you would say about the new narrative, or is it new or changed or added or ? https://www.instagram.com/reel/ClFAUHnretY/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D&fbclid=IwAR3gfpPqpsVvtO8L4O1TnjWxZnv44iJGzfdMQsfOaRPJUQpZFDpeXW0wHfg Link to comment
JustAnAustralian Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: I wondered what those of you would say about the new narrative, or is it new or changed or added or ? The Joseph Smith Papers Project has a page on the multiple accounts since 2013. The temple square visitors centre has been combining the multiple accounts for a while, and the various first hand first vision accounts were put in the gospel library for the Doctrine and Covenants Come Follow Me lessons (or possibly before, not sure when they were added). As far as social media, it's a shift from focussing solely on the 1838 account, but the 1838 version is still the one we have in the PoGP and spoken of most of the time, even if the others are in church published material. Link to comment
Craig Speechly Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I find it interesting that despite the name of the church having been changed in 1838 Smith still used the old previous name of the Church of Latter Day Saints in June of 1839. Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 17 hours ago, Craig Speechly said: I find it interesting that despite the name of the church having been changed in 1838 Smith still used the old previous name of the Church of Latter Day Saints in June of 1839. on "older" chapels here at least they have the old way of the Church's name, which they changed in the mid 90's sometime! someone should look into that! Link to comment
LoudmouthMormon Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) On 11/8/2022 at 8:51 AM, smac97 said: Way back in the 1990s, I returned from my mission and found that my dad had purchased "LDS Infobases," a collection of Church history/doctrine publications and materials originally published in 1993 (with perhaps other iterations published earlier than that). I was amazed at having access to something like 1,800 books on these discs, all searchable! I dearly loved my Infobases CD! When I got active again and they had me teaching the Gospel Essentials class, I'd spend an hour doing topical searches on that program in preparation. I didn't want to just read from the manual, without knowing a little about what the heck I was talking about. I continued to use it well past the invention of the internet. In some ways, it continues to be superior to many search functions offered by many church resources. Especially (and painfully so), the abysmally unforgivably tragically horrible search function of the church's current Library app: (Search ran yesterday. The secret, btw, is the KJV spells it "neighbour". For lack of a 'u', the truth was lost. 😒 ) Edited November 28, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon 1 Link to comment
JustAnAustralian Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: (Search ran yesterday. The secret, btw, is the KJV spells it "neighbour". For lack of a 'u', the truth was lost. 😒 ) This is what happens when you kick out the British, everything seems peachy, and then 246 years later you can't find what you want in your iPhone app. 3 Link to comment
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