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David Archuleta “Stepping Back” from Church


jkwilliams

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

No, he’s been counseled not to make male friends, as it might put him into a situation of temptation. 

That’s unfortunate and sounds pretty clueless, fearful advice, imo; I hope there is more to the story, but it wouldn’t be the first time someone who cares makes it harder through their sincere support unfortunately.  
 

There are ways to avoid temptation without cutting oneself off entirely, though it can be much easier in the sense there is no real decision making or choices to be made once that extreme choice has been made and that removes a lot of stress. But stress is hugely increased without a support structure, so the net result may be negative.  

Edited by Calm
Posted
10 minutes ago, Calm said:

That’s unfortunate and sounds pretty clueless, fearful advice, imo; I hope there is more to the story, but it wouldn’t be the first time someone who cares makes it harder through their sincere support unfortunately.  
 

There are ways to avoid temptation without cutting oneself off entirely, though it can be much easier in the sense there is no real decision making or choices to be made once that extreme choice has been made and that removes a lot of stress. But stress is hugely increased without a support structure, so the net result may be negative.  

From my admittedly anecdotal experience, it's not an uncommon piece of counsel. It's no way to live your life. 

Posted
5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From my admittedly anecdotal experience, it's not an uncommon piece of counsel. It's no way to live your life. 

Avoid close relationships with men. Make all your close relationships with women. That is a whole ‘nother scandal waiting to happen.

Posted (edited)

The Church does not ask any of us to change.  Christ is the one one that expects us to change and often that is not easy.  We may have to sacrifice important things in our life to make that change and it can be very hard to do.  I struggle with my own issues.  God forces nobody into the Celestial Kingdom.  We each have to decide whether we want it or not.  If we decide to take the easier route by not changing, that is our choice and we can be comforted for now in not making the hard decisions.  But it does come with a price down the road.

Edited by carbon dioxide
Posted
16 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Church does not ask any of us to change.  Christ is the one one that expects us to change and often that is not easy.  We may have to sacrifice important things in our life to make that change and it can be very hard to do.  I struggle with my own issues.  God forces nobody into the Celestial Kingdom.  We each have to decide whether we want it or not.  If we decide to take the easier route by not changing, that is our choice and we can be comforted for now in not making the hard decisions.  But it does come with a price down the road.

Only if one believes what man made religion leaders say. 

Posted
8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Only if one believes what man made religion leaders say. 

We humans are good at creating rules that hurt people. 

Posted
15 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

We humans are good at creating rules that hurt people. 

Yes, yes we are! 

I am listening to a good book and in it the author said this that I thought profound...instead of post traumatic syndrome we can say...

1. post traumatic growth

2. harvest the good

3. forgive the rest

 

Posted
On 11/5/2022 at 10:56 AM, Tacenda said:

Yes, yes we are! 

I am listening to a good book and in it the author said this that I thought profound...instead of post traumatic syndrome we can say...

1. post traumatic growth

2. harvest the good

3. forgive the rest

 

It took me a while to get there regarding the church. But I’m there. I really do feel grateful for the good things I received from the church, and I have forgiven the bad. 

Posted
On 11/3/2022 at 6:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

I have a gay family member who is 40 and active in the church. He is quite open about how lonely and unhappy he is, but he has faith and stays celibate and has no friends. Sometimes I want to just shake him and tell him to get the heck out of there and live a happy life, but it's not my place. I respect his choices, even though I think he is suffering needlessly.

He probably perceives and feels the exact same way about you!

Posted
10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

He probably perceives and feels the exact same way about you!

Well, I just heard he’s been watching a lot of John Delhin videos, so I’m guessing probably he probably doesn’t feel that way about me. 

Posted
14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, I just heard he’s been watching a lot of John Delhin videos, so I’m guessing probably he probably doesn’t feel that way about me. 

I don't know (and neither do you, apparently), but maybe.

Posted

"For my own mental health, I can't keep putting myself in a place where it's so conflicting where they say, 'We love you so much, but at the same time, you must change who you are. Oh, you can't? Then we're going to ignore this problem,..."

I empathize with his mental health, but clearly, he is misinterpreting the message because of it. The message that I'm pretty sure is consistently conveyed by the Church is:

“We love you so much, and at the same time love the Lord by respecting the covenants (and when failing, by repenting). If you believe you cannot keep the covenants or repent, we certainly still love you, respect your agency and are here to address your problems any way we can.”

Maybe it's more a matter of not believing that message than misinterpreting it, and then changing it to something more believable.

Posted
On 11/3/2022 at 8:01 PM, bluebell said:

It think it's ambiguous, but this paragraph below is where I think the article implies that he's stepped away due to them disagreeing with his views on SS relationships.

Once he was able to reconcile his sexuality with his own spirituality, Archuleta began speaking to church leaders about Mormonism's views on the LGBTQ community. The conversations were futile and left him feeling frustrated and exhausted. Today, his relationship with the church is "very complicated," he says.

Evidently, he is conflating his need for personal ecclesiastical counsel with mental health counseling with his sense of belonging to a community-within-a-community (in reference to my post immediately above).

Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, CV75 said:

If you believe you cannot keep the covenants or repent,

I agree that is likely the message sent, but my guess is most intended to be receiving it by the time they are open in their questioning don’t see their path as not keeping covenants or needing repentance, their belief is church leaders don’t understand clearly what God wants his church to be doing, so that message is just telling them church leaders don’t understand and therefore is frustrating.  And their belief is often as strong as any church leader.  I find both positions reasonable from the viewpoint of the individual.

I don’t think there is a one size fits all way to convey what the Church should be messaging in my view (which is close, but not quite what CV said), so I am not finding anything particularly satisfying.  I think what and how the message should be conveyed probably depends on the people involved and their relationship. 

Edited by Calm
Posted
2 hours ago, Calm said:

I agree that is likely the message sent, but my guess is most intended to be receiving it by the time they are open in their questioning don’t see their path as not keeping covenants or needing repentance, their belief is church leaders don’t understand clearly what God wants his church to be doing, so that message is just telling them church leaders don’t understand and therefore is frustrating.  And their belief is often as strong as any church leader.  I find both positions reasonable from the viewpoint of the individual.

I don’t think there is a one size fits all way to convey what the Church should be messaging in my view (which is close, but not quite what CV said), so I am not finding anything particularly satisfying.  I think what and how the message should be conveyed probably depends on the people involved and their relationship. 

Yes, there are at least three dynamics: one where the individual sits down with Church leaders to discuss doctrine, one where the induvial sits down with Church leaders to receive personal ministering relative to applying the doctrine for his life choices, and one where the individual sits down with Church leaders to discuss policy and strategy for a community.

Posted (edited)
On 11/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

I have a gay family member who is 40 and active in the church.

Okay.

On 11/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

He is quite open about how lonely and unhappy he is ...

Is his being "lonely and unhappy" the fault of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

On 11/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

... but he has faith and stays celibate and has no friends.

Guess what?  These descriptive clauses ... (1) "lonely and unhappy," (2) "has faith," (3) "stays celibate," and (4) "has no friends" (In my own case, would modify the fourth clause there by replacing the word "no" with "few," but, otherwise ...) describe your interlocutor, Your Humble Correspondent (c'est moi, in case that isn't clear ;) :D) to a "T"! ;) 

On 11/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

Sometimes I want to just shake him and tell him to get the heck out of there and live a happy life ...

Hmm.  I can see how, if I thought the Church of Jesus Christ  were the source of my unhappiness, I might think that, as well.

On 11/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

... but it's not my place. I respect his choices, even though I think he is suffering needlessly.

For myself, I wonder: Can we Myopic Mortals come to any certain conclusion what suffering might be need-ful versus that suffering that might be need-less?  (For myself, while I do think that there is plenty of needless suffering that is avoided by hewing to the dictates of the Church of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, I don't think even the Church promises us, as Elder Neal A. Maxwell once put it [as only Elder Maxwell can], "an unbroken string of green lights, followed by empty parking spaces just in front of our destination."*  As the Dread Pirate Roberts told Buttercup in the movie, The Princess Bride, "Life is pain, Highness!" ;))

And, yes, I realize that the inevitable rejoinder is going to be, "But, Ken, you're not gay!"  No.  That's true.  I'm not.  But, as the old saying goes, do we all have our crosses to bear, or don't we?

*It feels as though I have been stuck in the same snarled, seemingly-unending traffic jam for the last 25 years, damn it! :angry: 

;) :D :rofl: 

Edited by Kenngo1969
Added typography: No content changes
Posted
On 11/4/2022 at 12:25 AM, jkwilliams said:

I have a gay family member who is 40 and active in the church. He is quite open about how lonely and unhappy he is, but he has faith and stays celibate and has no friends. Sometimes I want to just shake him and tell him to get the heck out of there and live a happy life, but it's not my place. I respect his choices, even though I think he is suffering needlessly.

I have watched many who have taken the path you suggest... many years on its seems no better an outcome. Gender/sexuality challenges are a thorny calvary path and a heavy cross one would not wish upon their worst enemy.

Posted (edited)
On 11/3/2022 at 8:17 PM, bluebell said:

I hope he has. 

(that sounds snarky but I don't mean it like that. I really do hope he has.  I just mean that I wouldn't be surprised if it's all complicated for him right now, including the peace part).

He has clearly been through a lot of pain and suffering. He might feel a ‘little snarky’ about life right now or not. 

Does this mean every time someone on this board get ‘a little snarky’ our response should be ‘I wouldn’t be surprised if their life was all complicated right now, including the peace part.’

If that is the case their is a lot of people on this board with complicated lives and struggle with peace at times.

Oh wait, THERE ARE and it’s part of navigating life.

Edited by Ragerunner
Posted

His announcement wasn't unexpected or surprising.  It's hard to be a celebrity and covenant keeping member of the church.  It's kind of sad how members never learn their lesson and keep idolizing celebrity members as if they are extra special only to be burned later.  As for me, I've moved on to Olivia Moultrie.  This 17 year old girl is awesome!!!!  She's the youngest ever soccer player in the National Women's Soccer League and just helped her team win the championship this year.  Here's an article gently mocking her reactions to the booze filled celebration after her team won the championship:

https://www.insider.com/nwsl-championship-portland-thorns-teenage-prodigy-olivia-moultrie-sober-celebration-2022-11

Posted
2 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

Does this mean every time someone on this board get ‘a little snarky’ our response should be ‘I wouldn’t be surprised if their life was all complicated right now, including the peace part.’

I get the feeling that you think the answer to this question is no, but personally I'd be fine with that.  I know that when I'm having a bad day or struggling or having an "it's complicated" moment, it really helps when my husband acknowledges those feelings.  

Posted
On 11/3/2022 at 12:33 PM, Emily said:

You can be gay and be a full-fledged, faithful member. You simply can't engage in sexual intimacy outside a heterosexual marriage and remain in good standing in the church.  So the position of members with same-sex attraction is no different from every other unmarried individual in the church.

What about if you engage in a same-sex act in the mind?  Or, can I maintain sexual thoughts about someone
who is not my wife without committing the physical act and still be considered free from sin?

Posted
4 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

What about if you engage in a same-sex act in the mind?  Or, can I maintain sexual thoughts about someone
who is not my wife without committing the physical act and still be considered free from sin?

It could be that your mind went there and you panicked and you quickly want it out of your mind, and the mind keeps bringing it back because of how hard you're trying to not think about it. 

Posted
On 11/4/2022 at 12:37 AM, jkwilliams said:

No, he’s been counseled not to make male friends, as it might put him into a situation of temptation. So he hangs out mostly with his brother’s family. Like I said, I haven’t given him any advice, as it is none of my business. But it is hard seeing him so lonely and unhappy. 

I can understand the counsel not to make male friends, just from the point of view of being a profoundly straight guy, who by habit avoids making female friends -- and for the same reason. My wife has an unmarried niece in her 30's whom I really like because she is intelligent, personable, and an all-round nice person. She has a master's degree in Anthropology, works as a librarian, but also goes out on archaeological "digs" in the summer. I love talking with her, and when I get the chance to do so I thoroughly enjoy it. But only at church, in sight of other people, to avoid any appearance of impropriety. She has no apparent interest in dating or marriage.

My wife's niece is one among a number of church members I know who just never got married, yet as far as I could tell were straight. For example, a woman I know has a son, now in his mid-30s, who served an honorable mission, is definitely straight, still lives at home in what amounts to a "mother-in-law" apartment, and has no social life whatsoever. He goes to work, comes home, joins his mom and her husband (step-dad) for dinner and a bit of television watching, then goes to his apartment. He almost never goes anywhere. Once in awhile he has a social night with workmates, but that's it. He doesn't attend church (apparently got spooked by anti-Mormon literature online), but keeps the WoW, continues to wear his temple garments, prays with the family, and even watches at least a session or two of General Conference when it happens. He seems perfectly normal from a social point of view.

My wife is a Primary teacher, and her co-teacher is a daughter of my wife's best friend. This young lady is a faithful member of the church in her early thirties, lives with her parents, has never been married, and seems to have no interest at all in the idea. She is a pleasant woman, and though I've not had much conversation with her, she seems to be perfectly eligible for marriage. Is she gay? My wife feels she isn't. 

I don't know what to make of all this. I find marriage to be a wonderful institution and a lovely way to live a life. Why are so many otherwise eligible men and women choosing to remain apart from all of it?

Posted
17 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

What about if you engage in a same-sex act in the mind?  Or, can I maintain sexual thoughts about someone
who is not my wife without committing the physical act and still be considered free from sin?

You can, I suppose, say that it is sinful. But it cannot be a sin.

When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, they mentioned acts that could be performed which were forbidden to be done. That, and the parts of the Law of Moses forbidding one thing or another dealt with acts, not thoughts. I ask, how can it be a sin just to think of doing something forbidden? Yes, I know the Lord taught that if a man looks upon a woman in lust then he has committed adultery with her in his heart, but as far as I can tell he didn't call that a sin. The idea behind it is easy to understand: one is safe from committing a forbidden act if one never so much as thinks of doing it.

If considering but not performing a forbidden act were a sin, how would one repent of it? Repentance, at least as we understand it, requires making amends in some form. If I were to lust after my neighbor's wife, how the heck would I make amends for it? Actually committing adultery with a married woman under the Law of Moses would require amends in the form of being put to death. But merely thinking about that act has no amends available! So repentance is not possible. For that reason it can't be a sin. In my humble opinion, anyway.

The thought of doing any act can theoretically lead to the act itself, so to avoid doing the act, one does best to avoid the thought of doing the act. That's why the Lord admonished His followers to avoid even the consideration of a forbidden act. But the consideration of doing the act isn't the act itself.

 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I can understand the counsel not to make male friends, just from the point of view of being a profoundly straight guy, who by habit avoids making female friends -- and for the same reason. My wife has an unmarried niece in her 30's whom I really like because she is intelligent, personable, and an all-round nice person. She has a master's degree in Anthropology, works as a librarian, but also goes out on archaeological "digs" in the summer. I love talking with her, and when I get the chance to do so I thoroughly enjoy it. But only at church, in sight of other people, to avoid any appearance of impropriety. She has no apparent interest in dating or marriage.

My wife's niece is one among a number of church members I know who just never got married, yet as far as I could tell were straight. For example, a woman I know has a son, now in his mid-30s, who served an honorable mission, is definitely straight, still lives at home in what amounts to a "mother-in-law" apartment, and has no social life whatsoever. He goes to work, comes home, joins his mom and her husband (step-dad) for dinner and a bit of television watching, then goes to his apartment. He almost never goes anywhere. Once in awhile he has a social night with workmates, but that's it. He doesn't attend church (apparently got spooked by anti-Mormon literature online), but keeps the WoW, continues to wear his temple garments, prays with the family, and even watches at least a session or two of General Conference when it happens. He seems perfectly normal from a social point of view.

My wife is a Primary teacher, and her co-teacher is a daughter of my wife's best friend. This young lady is a faithful member of the church in her early thirties, lives with her parents, has never been married, and seems to have no interest at all in the idea. She is a pleasant woman, and though I've not had much conversation with her, she seems to be perfectly eligible for marriage. Is she gay? My wife feels she isn't. 

I don't know what to make of all this. I find marriage to be a wonderful institution and a lovely way to live a life. Why are so many otherwise eligible men and women choosing to remain apart from all of it?

Marriage is kind of a sacrifice of giving way to what their partners want. It's terribly difficult if personalities are really different and one's dreams are often squelched. Take your wife's niece for instance, could she do those digs as easily if she were married with children?

I wonder sometimes if I'd been better off single. I love my husband, but it's been a difficult marriage too. I want to go do things that he'd rather not. So therefore I don't and I see the world go by in sort of a way. 

I'd go do them but at my age now, I'm a bit of a chicken. 

Edited by Tacenda
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