David Archuleta “Stepping Back” from Church

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:49 PM, Calm said:

Can’t get more inclusive than that. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-30-god-is-no-respecter-of-persons?

We have to choose to reject God’s blessings which he offers to all who desire them. 
 

The limits of love is at our end, not his. 
 

Even in the scriptures that speak of separating goats from sheep, it is how we treat our fellow men that leads us to make ourselves into goats rather than sheep. Again the limits of love is not on God’s end, but ours:

 

You are arguing the same thing just worded differently.   God has his limits because he establishes limits.   God is always ready to forgive and bring us to  him but we must conform ourselves to his standards first.  He will not conform to our standards in the name of love.  God's love does have limits.  It does not overlook sin.  God has said "I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance".   That is not going to change to something like "I the Lord will allow sin and you can do whatever you want because I love you."  God is inclusive has his mercy is extended to all that repent.  He is exclusive has he will reject those who reject him and choose the standards of the world.   We are ultimately responsible to where we end up.

Edited May 21, 2023 by carbon dioxide

[Tacenda]

On 5/21/2023 at 10:38 AM, carbon dioxide said:

You are arguing the same thing just worded differently.   God has his limits because he establishes limits.   God is always ready to forgive and bring us to  him but we must conform ourselves to his standards first.  He will not conform to our standards in the name of love.  God's love does have limits.  It does not overlook sin.  God has said "I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance".   That is not going to change to something like "I the Lord will allow sin and you can do whatever you want because I love you."  God is inclusive has his mercy is extended to all that repent.  He is exclusive has he will reject those who reject him and choose the standards of the world.   We are ultimately responsible to where we end up.

Or did humans establish the limits, just as they did with women and how women shouldn't speak in church, or cut their hair or a multitude of limits written in the Bible. How do we pick and choose which ones are actually from God. See that doesn't make it so clear does it?

[juliann]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:20 PM, TheTanakas said:

Will same-sex attraction and same-sex intimate relations occur in the Celestial Kingdom?

I think it is really odd that we assume there will be any sex attraction in the CK. What would be the purpose? Women aren't going to be birthing flesh and blood children, there is no support for that whatsoever other than dragging mortality (and hormones) into the CK.

If the church can't keep someone like Archuletta, who has been so supportive and helpful, there is a huge problem with how they are handling this matter. I hope it is a wake up call.

[TheTanakas]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:32 PM, juliann said:

I think it is really odd that we assume there will be any sex attraction in the CK. What would be the purpose?

Eternal increase is one reason I can think of.  I figure sex, attraction, and love go part and parcel with
having children.  Unless physical sex is taboo in the CK.

[Hamilton Porter]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:32 PM, juliann said:

If the church can't keep someone like Archuletta, who has been so supportive and helpful, there is a huge problem with how they are handling this matter. I hope it is a wake up call.

He's a hotshot celebrity and if he leaves the church, he can pursue relationships. If he stays, he can't. I can see how hard it is to stay in.

He hasn't said anything negative about the church yet, and likely won't unless people socialize him into it. 

Again, he seems like a great guy and I'm confident he'll be back someday.

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Again, he seems like a great guy and I'm confident he'll be back someday.

I’m curious why you make such an assumption about his return.

[juliann]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:19 AM, TheTanakas said:

Eternal increase is one reason I can think of.  I figure sex, attraction, and love go part and parcel with
having children.  Unless physical sex is taboo in the CK.

What "children?" Spirits? They already exist. The purpose of sex on earth is to create flesh and blood bodies. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that God created this way? The only thing I see in scriptures is it was done by word. 

So you are planning on a bloodless eternal body that is somehow pumped up with hormones? Dream on. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

What "children?" Spirits? They already exist. The purpose of sex on earth is to create flesh and blood bodies. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that God created this way? The only thing I see in scriptures is it was done by word. 

So you are planning on a bloodless eternal body that is somehow pumped up with hormones? Dream on. 

Intelligences exist, but spirit children are something different.  I agree with you though in that we have no idea how it all works.  The only thing that we are taught from scripture is that being able to become a being capable of becoming like our Heavenly Father (and Heavenly Mother according to our doctrine) requires a man and woman who are bound together.

[TheTanakas]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:29 PM, juliann said:

What "children?" Spirits? They already exist. The purpose of sex on earth is to create flesh and blood bodies. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that God created this way?

The spirit children of heavenly Mother and Father.  I assume they were procreated with some
involvement of a heavenly female in a marriage relationship with her spouse.

[juliann]

On 5/28/2023 at 8:03 PM, bluebell said:

Intelligences exist, but spirit children are something different.  I agree with you though in that we have no idea how it all works.  The only thing that we are taught from scripture is that being able to become a being capable of becoming like our Heavenly Father (and Heavenly Mother according to our doctrine) requires a man and woman who are bound together.

The trail of what we have accepted when it comes to intelligence/spirit is pretty sparse and sketchy. If I recall, we didn’t end up with a prophet version…was it a Pratt? Anybody know more about this?

[Stargazer]

On 5/28/2023 at 4:29 PM, juliann said:

What "children?" Spirits? They already exist. The purpose of sex on earth is to create flesh and blood bodies. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that God created this way? The only thing I see in scriptures is it was done by word. 

Indeed.

Abraham 3:22 -> "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;" [emphasis added]

DC 92:29 -> "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."

It seems clear that God made us from material that was already present. 

On 5/28/2023 at 4:29 PM, juliann said:

So you are planning on a bloodless eternal body that is somehow pumped up with hormones? Dream on. 

I have often contemplated the nature of the Universe in connection with God. The question "Why does the Universe exist?" is answered for me by Moses 1:39. However, there is one question that causes my mind to sputter. It's this one: "Why does anything exist?" If you once get ahold of that question and are able to fully plumb the depths of it, it can feel like jumping off a cliff without a parachute. It's like the first time I jumped off a high board into a pool. 

It quickly becomes clear that in our present mortality we have no way to really understand this, hindered as we are by our limited mortal brains, and the way our spirits are bound to that matter. All we can do is trust God.

[Stargazer]

On 5/30/2023 at 6:10 AM, TheTanakas said:

The spirit children of heavenly Mother and Father.  I assume they were procreated with some
involvement of a heavenly female in a marriage relationship with her spouse.

It's the eternal round, as it were. Paul wrote: 1 Cor 11:11 -> "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

Paul seems to have been on some shaky ground in respect of things like men having long hair, or women praying without headgear, but verse 11 above seems to be expressing the idea that both are only fully complete when together. This is recognized in some Eastern philosophy as the Yin and Yang. Like on the South Korean flag.

When it come to Heaven Father and Mother, I think that the term "procreation" in connection with some sort of sexuality is way off base. How many humans capable of being exalted have been born so far into mortality? Billions. As Juliann says, hormones cannot reasonably be expected to be involved.

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Indeed.

Abraham 3:22 -> "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;" [emphasis added]

DC 92:29 -> "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."

It seems clear that God made us from material that was already present. 

I have often contemplated the nature of the Universe in connection with God. The question "Why does the Universe exist?" is answered for me by Moses 1:39. However, there is one question that causes my mind to sputter. It's this one: "Why does anything exist?" If you once get ahold of that question and are able to fully plumb the depths of it, it can feel like jumping off a cliff without a parachute. It's like the first time I jumped off a high board into a pool. 

It quickly becomes clear that in our present mortality we have no way to really understand this, hindered as we are by our limited mortal brains, and the way our spirits are bound to that matter. All we can do is trust God.

What is the difference between the "universe" and "anything"?

I see no difference, pragmatically.

Multiverses? What's the difference? 

Using the word WHY already presumes it HAS a purpose, so that is circular/ question begging logic right there.

HOW is another question, about mechanics only, physics stuff, but WHY already presumes a Being with intentions and purposes "in mind", and Moses 1:39 answers that just fine.

Edited June 27, 2023 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When it come to Heaven Father and Mother, I think that the term "procreation" in connection with some sort of sexuality is way off base.

Would you consider it offensive if heavenly parents really procreated in the same fashion as
humans (who are created in their image)? 

Or maybe humans who are resurrected into the highest division of the celestial kingdom will be
stripped of certain body parts because they are not needed.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What is the difference between the "universe" and "anything"?

I see no difference, pragmatically.

Maybe not. But the question still exists. Why does anything exist? Why shouldn't nothing exist? 

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Multiverses? What's the difference? 

Using the word WHY already presumes it HAS a purpose, so that is circular/ question begging logic right there.

HOW is another question, about mechanics only, physics stuff, but WHY already presumes a Being with intentions and purposes "in mind", and Moses 1:39 answers that just fine.

Stephen Hawking never tried to answer the question of "why" (which is certainly impossible to answer without a revelation from God). His answer as to "how" is as vague as possible: "I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science." I don't think he thought he knew what laws were involved. What "nothing" has to do with laws of any kind is a mystery. For that matter, what is "nothing"?

As you suggest, "why" is sometimes confused with "how." The question "Why does the sun shine?" is answered by explaining "how", which involves explaining the physical process of fusion. 

That's why I love Moses 1:39 so much. It explains everything. It is, in effect, the Unified Field Theory. The Theory that Explains Everything.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Would you consider it offensive if heavenly parents really procreated in the same fashion as
humans (who are created in their image)? 

No. If that is how it is done, then I'm all for it. What matters is fact. The truth. I just don't believe that is how it is done. We'll find out in time. 

Abraham 3:22 -> "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

The intelligences were organized. And organized from pre-existent sources.

DC 93:29 -> "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."

Were they in God's image after organization? No, because they were not yet incarnated in flesh. So, how do immortal and exalted beings organize an intelligence? One by one through sexual means? That's what our opponents say to mock our beliefs. And I've never been taught that in any church material. It's not doctrinal. But if that's how it's done, fine.

12 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Or maybe humans who are resurrected into the highest division of the celestial kingdom will be
stripped of certain body parts because they are not needed.

Why would a resurrected immortal being need a gall bladder? Gall is an important secretion used for the metabolism of fats. An immortal being does not need to eat, so a digestive system isn't needed, nor a gall bladder. Yes, I know that the resurrected Christ ate fish in front of His apostles, but did he need to? Did he digest the fish?

We are in form and likeness images of God. But God, being immortal and exalted does not need all the features that we mortal and debased creatures have. Or does He? 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

But the question still exists. Why does anything exist? Why shouldn't nothing exist? 

Yes, you can put those words together to make a meaningless utterance as the positivists used to say.  That is one thing they got right.

But does it "exist" as jibberish? 

Fug pomo mahoota skuzy mwko!

But yes, 1:39 has to be among the most profound sentences known to mankind! 😄

Edited June 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

On 6/28/2023 at 1:31 AM, Stargazer said:

Were they in God's image after organization? No, because they were not yet incarnated in flesh.

Were spirit children, in the premortal existence, created in God's image even though they had
spirit bodies, which is made up of pure matter?
 

On 6/28/2023 at 1:31 AM, Stargazer said:

So, how do immortal and exalted beings organize an intelligence? One by one through sexual means? That's what our opponents say to mock our beliefs. And I've never been taught that in any church material. It's not doctrinal. But if that's how it's done, fine.

I know. I have heard of that infamous video.  I figure if a sexual union is not involved, then there's
no need to consider one of the parents as a heavenly mother.
 

On 6/28/2023 at 1:31 AM, Stargazer said:

Why would a resurrected immortal being need a gall bladder? Gall is an important secretion used for the metabolism of fats. An immortal being does not need to eat, so a digestive system isn't needed, nor a gall bladder. Yes, I know that the resurrected Christ ate fish in front of His apostles, but did he need to? Did he digest the fish?

We are in form and likeness images of God. But God, being immortal and exalted does not need all the features that we mortal and debased creatures have. Or does He?

It all depends if one believes being created in the image of God means having all the same body parts
like a head, arms, and legs, etc. or if being created in the image of God involves something else.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I figure if a sexual union is not involved, then there's
no need to consider one of the parents as a heavenly mother.

I have a niece whose children were created through in vitro fertilization of her eggs and her husband’s sperm. Do you consider her the children’s mother even though there was no sexual union involved in the fertilization process?

[mfbukowski]

Oh my gosh you guys.

See my avatar ?

Does that mean mf Bukowski is created in Picasso's image??

Symbols and ambiguities.

This is not physics class.

Who knows what it means! ? What is important is that God is an embodied human and so are we.

The concept is a sub-paradigm of the Gospel as taught by the church, meaning we are like him and can progressively become more like him by emulating his son, and take upon the name of Christ, by being born into his church through baptism.

That face above above is not mine for a reason; nor is it in the perfect image of anyone who ever lived, including Picasso.  It conveys a message that ART is it's own reality, presented as a human experience.

It is a created work of humans as a symbol of all humans based on a particular example of one human artist's "image".

It is not even meant to "represent" Picasso, but to be a SYMBOL.

That is what an "image" IS!!

Edited June 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:34 PM, Calm said:

I have a niece whose children were created through in vitro fertilization of her eggs and her husband’s sperm. Do you consider her the children’s mother even though there was no sexual union involved in the fertilization process?

Yes.  Maybe heavenly parents have children too without the physical intimacy. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by TheTanakas

[Stargazer]

On 6/29/2023 at 7:17 PM, TheTanakas said:

Were spirit children, in the premortal existence, created in God's image even though they had
spirit bodies, which is made up of pure matter?

Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants seem to me to say that the spirit bodies created/organized by Heavenly Father and Mother are of the same material as HF/HM. But more refined. 

Flawed Analogy: a home builder may make a simple home out of the same materials as a sophisticated home.  

On 6/29/2023 at 7:17 PM, TheTanakas said:

I know. I have heard of that infamous video.  I figure if a sexual union is not involved, then there's
no need to consider one of the parents as a heavenly mother.

Why? If a human orphan is adopted by a husband and wife, the orphan gets its training and socialization from them. There need not be a sexual origination in respect of the parents in connection with the child in order to result in a viable human being able to deal with life. It remains the case that even with an adoptive relationship, the ideal family structure for the raising of children is the mother/father model. Why should it be any different in the eternal realms?

You must look beyond our petty mortal condition to see that perhaps there is more to the male/female relationship than mere physical pleasure. Here we deal with our spouses on a hormonal level of course, because that is a necessity for survival of the species. But in the eternal realm, what we have here for that purpose is most likely surplus to requirements in the organizing of offspring. That is not to say that there won't be any kind of marital relations. If such there will be, I expect it will be far more meaningful than what we have here. 

On 6/29/2023 at 7:17 PM, TheTanakas said:

It all depends if one believes being created in the image of God means having all the same body parts
like a head, arms, and legs, etc. or if being created in the image of God involves something else.

It seems reasonable to me that the general human structure is part of the image of God. But when God walks does He have to watch out for stumbling obstacles, or wear a spacesuit while traveling between worlds? Nah, I don't see that as reasonable.

We're not told everything, are we? Just that everything will be far, far better there than it is here. We cannot imagine how much better it will be, so why give us details in our current situation?

[Tacenda]

Currently Lupe, David's mom is on MS's youtube with John. I guess her faith changed after David coming out. Not sure yet what she's got to say.