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David Archuleta “Stepping Back” from Church


jkwilliams

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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Marriage is kind of a sacrifice of giving way to what their partners want. It's terribly difficult if personalities are really different and one's dreams are often squelched. Take your wife's niece for instance, could she do those digs as easily if she were married with children?

Point taken! She wouldn't be the only woman who saw a career as more important than marriage -- but in her case, she doesn't seem driven in her career. So maybe she just isn't the "marrying" type.

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder sometimes if I'd been better off single. I love my husband, but it's been a difficult marriage too. I want to go do things that he'd rather not. So therefore I don't and I see the world go by in sort of a way. 

My first marriage was a disaster. My second was difficult at times but reasonably successful in that we managed to tough it out, and stayed in love and together until she passed away. Similar to you, our interests diverged a lot, and I didn't do as many things as I would have liked because she would rather not -- it's possible she had similar regrets, but it seemed she wasn't as ambitious as I was. It worked out, though, so I have no regrets. My final marriage is a dream! I wish I had found her fifty years ago. Certain pressures, like trying to raise children, are not present, so that is a factor in the smoothness of how things go, I suppose, but we are very well attuned to each other. 

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'd go do them but at my age now, I'm a bit of a chicken. 

In my case, I'd kind of rather stay home now (chicken or lazy, not sure which), but my wife is the adventurer. She's dragged me to places I would never have thought of if she hadn't been the instigator. We'll be spending Christmas "on the road" this year, traveling through Belgium, Austria, and Germany. We're living in England, so of course these places are not all that far away, but still. 

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51 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'd go do them but at my age now, I'm a bit of a chicken. 

Is there a friend or family member who might enjoy doing them with you who might be in a similar situation?

Once my husband retires in a year, I will be insisting he goes traveling with our grandkids…take one of them at a time for a special time before they get too old.  We both wanted to travel, but I can’t now.  Seems like a great solution.

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6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there a friend or family member who might enjoy doing them with you who might be in a similar situation?

Once my husband retires in a year, I will be insisting he goes traveling with our grandkids…take one of them at a time for a special time before they get too old.  We both wanted to travel, but I can’t now.  Seems like a great solution.

I probably made him out to be worse than he is. He's been willing to do many things so I shouldn't complain. I think that sounds like a grand time with the one on one, hope you will be able to do the same with the grandkids as well, work something out.

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Just a thought after reading and posting in the thread about the church supporting gay marriage being protected, I wondered if their talks with David, pretty sure some have spoken with him and maybe it was passed along. I wonder if this helped them protect the sanctity of it since they have never been more in favor of protections as now. Huge step forward. And for a short moment I was just thinking they did it to keep members from leaving, my bad probably.

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On 11/12/2022 at 6:58 AM, Stargazer said:

I can understand the counsel not to make male friends, just from the point of view of being a profoundly straight guy, who by habit avoids making female friends -- and for the same reason. My wife has an unmarried niece in her 30's whom I really like because she is intelligent, personable, and an all-round nice person. She has a master's degree in Anthropology, works as a librarian, but also goes out on archaeological "digs" in the summer. I love talking with her, and when I get the chance to do so I thoroughly enjoy it. But only at church, in sight of other people, to avoid any appearance of impropriety. She has no apparent interest in dating or marriage.

My wife's niece is one among a number of church members I know who just never got married, yet as far as I could tell were straight. For example, a woman I know has a son, now in his mid-30s, who served an honorable mission, is definitely straight, still lives at home in what amounts to a "mother-in-law" apartment, and has no social life whatsoever. He goes to work, comes home, joins his mom and her husband (step-dad) for dinner and a bit of television watching, then goes to his apartment. He almost never goes anywhere. Once in awhile he has a social night with workmates, but that's it. He doesn't attend church (apparently got spooked by anti-Mormon literature online), but keeps the WoW, continues to wear his temple garments, prays with the family, and even watches at least a session or two of General Conference when it happens. He seems perfectly normal from a social point of view.

My wife is a Primary teacher, and her co-teacher is a daughter of my wife's best friend. This young lady is a faithful member of the church in her early thirties, lives with her parents, has never been married, and seems to have no interest at all in the idea. She is a pleasant woman, and though I've not had much conversation with her, she seems to be perfectly eligible for marriage. Is she gay? My wife feels she isn't. 

I don't know what to make of all this. I find marriage to be a wonderful institution and a lovely way to live a life. Why are so many otherwise eligible men and women choosing to remain apart from all of it?

Following this counsel would mean no friends at all for me.

Asexuality is a thing and might be behind the situations you describe. Or they are aromantic and dedicated to the Law of Chastity.

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10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Following this counsel would mean no friends at all for me.

I see that. But counsel for one person isn't necessarily the best counsel for another. We all must obey laws, but generic counsel must be ignored or taken differently when it cannot be reasonably applied. In your case, and that of others who have the same situation, it's clearly impossible to be strictly applied. One has to make do, and adjust as the situation dictates. For example, a bisexual person might restrict same-sex relationships to persons who aren't same-sex attracted. Or just be highly circumspect about it.

Before I retired, I happened to work with a number of women who were all pretty darned smart and quite personable. Sometimes I had to work with them one-on-one, and a few times attended conferences with them. There were possible opportunities for non-appropriate interactions, but keeping the relationships professional made it not an issue.

In my last tour in the US Army in Germany as an electronics tech, I was in a small unit in a somewhat remote installation. For my last year there I was teamed with a female tech, and I had to spend a fair amount of time with her, visiting unmanned microwave relay stations alone with her to do maintenance and so on. Both of us were married with children, happily so.  She was a very nice woman, great to work with, and I enjoyed her company. But both of us kept it quite professional, and it all worked out just fine. I made a particular point of not dwelling on her physical attributes.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Asexuality is a thing and might be behind the situations you describe. Or they are aromantic and dedicated to the Law of Chastity.

I'm far from asexual, but I have found that being dedicated to the Law of Chastity provides me with protection from the world. 

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On 11/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, Stargazer said:

My wife's niece is one among a number of church members I know who just never got married, yet as far as I could tell were straight. For example, a woman I know has a son, now in his mid-30s, who served an honorable mission, is definitely straight, still lives at home in what amounts to a "mother-in-law" apartment, and has no social life whatsoever.

My wife is a Primary teacher, and her co-teacher is a daughter of my wife's best friend. This young lady is a faithful member of the church in her early thirties, lives with her parents, has never been married, and seems to have no interest at all in the idea. She is a pleasant woman, and though I've not had much conversation with her, she seems to be perfectly eligible for marriage. Is she gay? My wife feels she isn't. 

I don't know what to make of all this. I find marriage to be a wonderful institution and a lovely way to live a life. Why are so many otherwise eligible men and women choosing to remain apart from all of it?

I suspect they've done the math and know they can't afford any other living situation.   Say they were to date and that relationship progresses to the point of marriage.  How would their 2 income household support themselves in a 4 income economy?

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11 hours ago, jcake said:

Just for some clarification, take a look at this interview with David Archuleta.  I'm dismayed that a general authority would tell him he just needs a woman.

 https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/culture/video/david-archuleta-talks-emotional-faith-crisis-coming-93546676?fbclid=IwAR1vu5GWyqtT5LJAO1Fp6WpRFp-I28RqvsUExf-oVZ5cC6-a_pStx0d3Z8s

I think it’s likely a result of David labeling himself as bisexual, and that leader’s perception of how that works and what that means. 

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6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it’s likely a result of David labeling himself as bisexual, and that leader’s perception of how that works and what that means. 

Most bisexual people do end up with someone of the opposite sex. Even if you ignore the social stigma of marrying someone of your own gender and that some gay and lesbian people tend to discriminate against bisexuals you are dealing with a huge numbers game. If I were to end up with a random compatible partner 90-95% of them would be women. A lot of bisexuals before the current generation don’t realize what they are until later in life. I assumed that all guys found some other guys attractive and just didn’t act on it. Like I said in that thread I started the whole rejecting gay desire and marrying the right kind of spouse rhetoric often works on bisexuals.

Some are more mercurial. Very few bisexuals are about 50/50 on which gender they favor. Some kind of are but also have the bi-cycle where they swing between the two in arcs that last weeks, months, or years. A lot of bisexuals are constantly plagued by doubt that they are secretly straight or gay because that is what they mostly feel right now. Note that in most cases real love in a relationship beats the bi-cycle. A guy may lose interest in men in general but still love and be attracted to their husband or bf but mostly find women attractive generally. I suspect those rare gay conversion success stories are something like this and also many of the gay or lesbians who stay faithful to their opposite-gender spouse are bi with a strong preference.

If you are in the Church and find a compatible partner of the “correct” gender then great. Some bisexuals though strongly favor same gender relationships and only rarely find the opposite gender attractive. Also, some bisexuals have specific types and many tend to favor androgynous types and there are few of them in the church. You don’t see a lot of femboys and tomboys in the church. At least not open ones.

I don’t know where David fits in the wide spectrum but the well-meaning advice might be difficult to apply. Also most bisexuals are capable of and often are even wired well for monogamous relationships. Others feel unfulfilled with one partner and miss the other gender. Asking them to settle down and get sealed is unlikely to end well.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t know where David fits in the wide spectrum but the well-meaning advice might be difficult to apply. Also most bisexuals are capable of and often are even wired well for monogamous relationships. Others feel unfulfilled with one partner and miss the other gender. Asking them to settle down and get sealed is unlikely to end well.

It doesn't sound like good advice at all, considering everything that happened each time he was engaged to a woman.  But I can see how someone from the older generation could hear "bisexual" and think that it's no big deal to just choose someone of the opposite sex.

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sorry, didn’t mean you. I meant the stories you describe of people uninterested in relationships at all.

I don't think I thought you were thinking of me. <- That sounds confused....

By the way, you can really seriously annoy me sometimes. But by and large I rather like you; you seem like a great guy, all in all. You have a nicely twisted sense of humor that I definitely appreciate. I want to assure you that I hold no ill will towards you at all, even if sometimes I have gotten rather sharp with you in conversations on this board.

Just needed to make this clear.

 

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On 11/27/2022 at 1:53 AM, Chum said:

I suspect they've done the math and know they can't afford any other living situation.   Say they were to date and that relationship progresses to the point of marriage.  How would their 2 income household support themselves in a 4 income economy?

Well, the one who's living at home you bolded definitely doesn't make enough to live on his own. He doesn't seem to have any ambition, either, and I'm not sure his lack of ambition is the cause of his asociality, or he just prefers to be asocial. So perhaps he's best off where he is. My niece who's the archaeologist makes enough to live on her own, and does. She could probably support a househusband.

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On 11/27/2022 at 6:20 AM, jcake said:

Just for some clarification, take a look at this interview with David Archuleta.  I'm dismayed that a general authority would tell him he just needs a woman.

 https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/culture/video/david-archuleta-talks-emotional-faith-crisis-coming-93546676?fbclid=IwAR1vu5GWyqtT5LJAO1Fp6WpRFp-I28RqvsUExf-oVZ5cC6-a_pStx0d3Z8s

Well, not looking at what the GA says in the GMA piece, in those terms he does have a point.

God's second commandment after telling Adam and Eve don't touch that tree was "Be fruitful and multiply." He didn't mean plant lots of fruit, or devise multiplication tables. If David wants to obey God's second commandment, he needs a woman. There's no doubt of that. If he doesn't want to obey that commandment, that's on him, but he needs a woman to be in compliance with the commandment.

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On 11/28/2022 at 8:59 AM, Stargazer said:

Well, not looking at what the GA says in the GMA piece, in those terms he does have a point.

God's second commandment after telling Adam and Eve don't touch that tree was "Be fruitful and multiply." He didn't mean plant lots of fruit, or devise multiplication tables. If David wants to obey God's second commandment, he needs a woman. There's no doubt of that. If he doesn't want to obey that commandment, that's on him, but he needs a woman to be in compliance with the commandment.

At what number of children does someone meet the requirements of that commandment? If David adopts is he all set?  If I, a woman, say I am unable to have children because of the biological limits put on me naturally am I excused? If David uses an egg donor has he kept the commandment? 
I’m being argumentative.  No need to engage.  I should say, I disagree with the hook you’re hanging your hat on. 

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An honest question. Do bisexuals lean more one way than the other? My daughter in law is bisexual. She is attracted to women but married my son and they are monogamous. She knows the attraction just won’t ‘go away’ but they are so far doing fine. It’s been 8 years. 
 

My friend’s son told his mom he was bisexual but only dates men. 

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On 11/29/2022 at 7:16 PM, bsjkki said:

An honest question. Do bisexuals lean more one way than the other? My daughter in law is bisexual. She is attracted to women but married my son and they are monogamous. She knows the attraction just won’t ‘go away’ but they are so far doing fine. It’s been 8 years. 
 

My friend’s son told his mom he was bisexual but only dates men. 

Yes, bisexuality isn't usually a complete 50-50 split. Those who use that title can range in both sexual and relational behaviors, physical attraction, and romantic attraction. One I knew for example was a little more sexually attracted to men but more romantically into women. Another was committed to their husband but would have a female work crush and/or sex dreams entailing women. I don't find it too weird that your DIL is comfortable in her relationship and it's going solidly. It's no different than a straight pair retaining monogamy even if they may still find people outside their marriage attractive. 

 

With luv,

BD

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