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Wheat and Tares and Tolerance


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7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

To goodness, no. To salvation, an unapologetic yes!

 

Sounds like a contradiction to me. And the "unapologetic" followed by the scriptural passage...this sounds like you are using tradition to excuse an unkindness.

Mormonism is certainly not exclusive in seeking the ultimate good. Some would call it salvation, but there are various terms. 

This conversation has struck me with a realisation: 

Claims to knowing the One True Way make it easy to decide. If your "choice" is between The Only Way and uncountable other ways, there's much to worry about. To be clear it can feel really good to not be burdened by decisions. But ultimately that kind of thought-stopping ideology leads humankind into Really Big Conflict, on both mass scale and individual scale.

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20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And the "unapologetic" followed by the scriptural passage...this sounds like you are using tradition to excuse an unkindness.

If Jesus was speaking the truth, the greatest imaginable unkindness would be to betray Him.

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... 'it can feel really good to not be burdened by decisions'; 'that kind of thought-stopping ideology' ...

Your patronising and faux-enlightened implication that being a faithful Christian stops thought is exactly the kind of thing that 'leads humankind into Really Big Conflict'. You are precisely what you think you are critiquing in us.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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On 10/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

My question is, do you believe tolerance of sin to the point of acceptance of sin is what will cause those who were once wheat to be choked and starved of their testimonies by the tares?

Yes.  It absolutely is one of the driving forces in that.  You have to look no further than that pages of this forum for proof.  I see it in my ward; I see it at BYU; it’s widespread in The Church.

How many times have you heard people from the pulpit say:  “Don’t judge”? That is a false notion that those you call tares use quite frequently.  God commands us TO judge—righteously.

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32 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Yes.  It absolutely is one of the driving forces in that.  You have to look no further than that pages of this forum for proof.  I see it in my ward; I see it at BYU; it’s widespread in The Church.

How many times have you heard people from the pulpit say:  “Don’t judge”? That is a false notion that those you call tares use quite frequently.  God commands us TO judge—righteously.

we are also counseled not to be a "as a busybody in other men's matters" if it isn't your business, which it usually isn't then let those who's business it is deal with it. God didn't ask you or me to me to make final judgements on anyone, we don't know the whole story-as much as people like to think they do

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9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If Jesus was speaking the truth, the greatest imaginable unkindness would be to betray Him.

Your patronising and faux-enlightened implication that being a faithful Christian stops thought is exactly the kind of thing that 'leads humankind into Really Big Conflict'. You are precisely what you think you are critiquing in us.

That's not the conversation. The conversation started when you pointed at people and called them Perdition. 

In other words, I'm not responding to what you feel is good for your own life. I am responding to what you are saying about others. 

Imagine your adult child has rejected religion, including any divine identity people would call Jesus Christ, even after decades of belief and what you both felt was their personal revelation at times in the past.

They feel differently now, and not as an act of rebellion but of sincere search for goodness and truth.

Would you downgrade their spiritual journey to one of rebellion against goodness and tell them atleast ultimately they will change in the eternities to agree with you?

 

 

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Is God God because God is good? Or is good good because God says it is good?

I know my answer which would be a requirement to believing in God. 

I don't think goodness depends upon a name or any other form of ticket. Good is good by its own merit. Affiliation or gates are in my opinion substitutions for actual good.

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10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Your patronising and faux-enlightened implication that being a faithful Christian stops thought is exactly the kind of thing that 'leads humankind into Really Big Conflict'. You are precisely what you think you are critiquing in us.

It's not fake, it's borne out of real experience. (Furthermore I didn't say that about all Christians, I was addressing what you said specifically. ) To me,  Latter-day saints of the Church of Jesus Christ have conveyed sentiments and messages very different from yours, and that combined with their including me their atheist daughter in their sacred experiences are some of the most beautiful spiritual experiences of my life. 

I'll also note an experience from after I left the church when I was supporting my believing teen son. I was translating for him at seminary. Frankly it was not so nice to be translating wheat/tares type messages when I know how often church leaders would identify me as a tare. Yet I love my son, and was actively caring about him and respecting him while still holding to my own conscience. 

What's the good in these examples? I don't think theism or atheism is the dividing line. I think love is much more important.

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On 10/1/2022 at 10:08 PM, JLHPROF said:

This is a key element of this parable.  Tares are believed to be a plant called bearded darnel which looks a lot like wheat but can bring sickness, even hallucinations.

In other words a tare growing with the wheat is a member, not an outsider.  And it can literally bring false and delusive spirits to the Church.  It was not just about sin but about false teachings masquerading as truth that poisons from within.

Its sister parable would be the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Could this be true of all false teachings, even from a prophet? Have there been false teachings from prophets that are excused because of his position? Even from someone like...say... Brigham Young, or Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Spencer Kimball, or Russell Nelson?

Could an individual be both a wheat and a tare, correct in some things and wrong in others?

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50 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Is God God because God is good? Or is good good because God says it is good?

I know my answer which would be a requirement to believing in God. 

I don't think goodness depends upon a name or any other form of ticket. Good is good by its own merit. Affiliation or gates are in my opinion substitutions for actual good.

It's a hard question because can we even reliably define "good"?

Is something good that causes a lot of pain for a moment but is required for lasting health and happiness later?  Probably.  Would we define it as good if we only had experience with the pain and didn't know it was leading to health in the long term?  Probably not.

Our views are so finite and limited, that's it's hard for me to know how I would even judge ultimate "good" accurately, let alone trying to define God's goodness (who, if He exists, would exist on a plane that I could not comprehend left to my own devices).

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7 minutes ago, Brahms said:

I would say the wheat could be any true Christian even if not a member of the Church.  The field is the whole world, not only the Church, and I can see many good reasons to not burn true Christians even if they aren't members of Christ's Church.    

Agreed.

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51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Could this be true of all false teachings, even from a prophet? Have there been false teachings from prophets that are excused because of his position? Even from someone like...say... Brigham Young, or Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Spencer Kimball, or Russell Nelson?

Could an individual be both a wheat and a tare, correct in some things and wrong in others?

According to D&C 86 the apostles sow the seeds, the adversary sows the tares.
It would be an assumption that the Apostles also sow tares or that the adversary convinces them that tares are wheat.
Either way, the wheat and tares are the teachings/doctrines - NOT the individuals.  Those that sow doctrinal tares are serving Satan - whether they realize it or not.

  • D&C 86:2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;
    3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.

Matthew warns us against being caught sleeping when these false doctrines appear.  That's when the tares appear - when we aren't paying attention.  False philosophies and doctrines continue to sneak into the membership.

  • Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
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2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The conversation started when you pointed at people and called them Perdition. 

CFR where he did that…I am not seeing it in his comments.

Edited by Calm
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38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

According to D&C 86 the apostles sow the seeds, the adversary sows the tares.
It would be an assumption that the Apostles also sow tares or that the adversary convinces them that tares are wheat.
Either way, the wheat and tares are the teachings/doctrines - NOT the individuals.  Those that sow doctrinal tares are serving Satan - whether they realize it or not.

  • D&C 86:2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;
    3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.

Matthew warns us against being caught sleeping when these false doctrines appear.  That's when the tares appear - when we aren't paying attention.  False philosophies and doctrines continue to sneak into the membership.

  • Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

How does the idea of the wheat/tares being doctrines and not individuals work with the rest of the analogy, where the wheat are gathered at the last days to God and the tares are burned?

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13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How does the idea of the wheat/tares being doctrines and not individuals work with the rest of the analogy, where the wheat are gathered at the last days to God and the tares are burned?

I was going to say that too, how do you burn doctrines?

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57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How does the idea of the wheat/tares being doctrines and not individuals work with the rest of the analogy, where the wheat are gathered at the last days to God and the tares are burned?

I think there is some crossing of metaphors. In Alma it clearly talks about the seed as the word, which is also what JLHPROF is saying. In that metaphor the seed grows into faith. In the tares parable the seed grows into a tare, which is a person without faith. I think the definition of tare as any false doctrine or wrong doing is far to broad to be of any use. Every single wheat must also be a tare because no one, not even wheat is perfect, nor do they have a perfect understanding of doctrines. Otherwise you'd have Brigham Young and McConkie as tares.

IMO, this parable is problematic because it requires each person to judge and categorize others which I find counter productive. Most other Christian faiths might consider LDS members to be tares and therefore treat them as such. Or vice versa. What good does that accomplish? None.

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On 10/1/2022 at 9:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

 

When we come to earth, we are given the freedom to choose between good and evil. It is up to us to choose whether we will be like the wheat or the tares."

Such an awful story and divisive.  Religion seems to do that and make people into and us vs them with the US thinking they are the best.  Piety can be a bad thing.

On 10/1/2022 at 9:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

---

I've read many pages of this forum before joining. I've noticed while the intent of this forum is to build and educate on a number of topics, (NO POLITICS... but sometimes politics), there are many who would have the Church change according to their personal beliefs and not according to the well established doctrines of the Church. Almost as if they want God and his servants to accommodate sin. 

Hmmm.  I guess there are some like that. There are a lot here who also claim nuanced and unorthodox ideas that think they are the wheat as much as any are.

Wanting God and his servants to accommodate sin?  Sin is a human construct really and humans put words into a god's mouth and that is a god they create in their own image.

On 10/1/2022 at 9:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

President Nelson taught, "Tolerance is a virtue much needed in our turbulent world. But we must recognize that there is a difference between tolerance and tolerate. Your gracious tolerance for an individual does not grant him or her license to do wrong, nor does your tolerance obligate you to tolerate his or her misdeed. That distinction is fundamental to an understanding of this vital virtue."

Latter-day Saints are some of the least tolerant people I know so I don't take anything  seriously they have to say about the topic.

On 10/1/2022 at 9:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

 

"20 For behold, at that day shall he arage in the bhearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he apacify, and lull them away into carnal bsecurity, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the cdevil dcheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell." -2 Nephi 28

My question is, do you believe tolerance of sin to the point of acceptance of sin is what will cause those who were once wheat to be choked and starved of their testimonies by the tares?

Depends who is defining what "sin" is.  I don't worry much about the "wheat."  Some of the "wheat" can use a good choking off.

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19 minutes ago, Teancum said:
On 10/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

When we come to earth, we are given the freedom to choose between good and evil. It is up to us to choose whether we will be like the wheat or the tares."

Such an awful story and divisive.  Religion seems to do that and make people into and us vs them with the US thinking they are the best.  Piety can be a bad thing.

We have all kinds of rules, laws, or commandments that we are given in this life, whether they come from our parents, the schools we attend, from our employer, or the city, state, or country we live in, or the religion we choose to follow.  There are those who follow those rules, laws, or commandments, and those who don't.  Ultimately, the only divisiveness on these issues comes when those rules, laws, or commandments catch up to the individual choosing to break them:  They are either put in time out, expelled from school, fired from their employment, put in jail or prison, or judged in the final judgment and assigned to a lesser kingdom.   

But there may also be individuals who judge others for their desire to adhere to the rules (like you are doing above), or for their breaking of the rules.  For the latter, the person in charge and the one who made the rules should be the only one doing the judging (our parents, the school principal, our employer, or municipal authority, or in the case of religion:  God or an authorized representative like the Bishop).   For the rest of us, it's not our job to do that, except when making our own choices about the people we choose as our friends and associates.  

You imply that our choices between good and evil or whether to be like the wheat or the tares is divisive.  You are right, but only for the reasons explained above.

Edited by InCognitus
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3 hours ago, Brahms said:

Wheat - true Christians, following the Savior as well as they know how

Tares - people who aren't following Jesus Christ even though Satan may be deceiving some of them into thinking they are 

Either way, the wheat and tares DO represent individual people - not teachings/doctrines.  People become either wheat or tares based on which seeds/teachings/doctrines they accept as sown by whoever sows the seeds 

Do I have to believe in Satan if I believe in Jesus?

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3 minutes ago, Brahms said:

No. you don't have to believe anything you don't want to believe.  Every decision you make is a choice, and you can choose what you will and will not believe in.

I would maybe point out to you that there are opposites to everything in existence.  Such as a person who is as evil as Jesus is good.  But I would not try to make you believe that.  Nobody can make you do anything that you don't want to do. 

Thanks for the answer, because I think the being of a Satan is made up. But do believe in a person being evil and the opposite of the Saviour. 

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37 minutes ago, Brahms said:

I would maybe point out to you that there are opposites to everything in existence.  Such as a person who is as evil as Jesus is good.

So do you believe there is an evil anti-God out there just as powerful as God is?

Do you believe Satan is just as powerful as Jesus?

If not, Jesus and Satan are not opposites. 
 

What is the opposite of my pixie haircut?  What is the opposite of grass?  What is the opposite of plastic (the material)?  What is the opposite of rice?

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Brahms said:

You might need to hear this idea:  I believe our Father (and Mother) in heaven produced a lot of children, both males and females.  You were one of those children, and I was one too.  Only they know how many of us there are now.  At some point they allowed all of us who had reached a certain point in our development to choose to do whatever we wanted to do, as far as we had the power to do it.  We could choose to do either good things or bad things, or a combination of both good and evil things, and then of course there would be consequences to our own choices. I think it is likely that all of us did something bad at least one time in our own lives, even while knowing our heavenly parents were watching us do what we did. And then of course there were consequences to our own bad choices, as there always must be.  One day, a very long time ago, our Father in heaven proposed a plan whereby we would be able to become a lot more like he and our Mother are now.  We were already at least a little bit like them, but this new experience for us would, they said, help us to grow in ways we had not yet experienced. This is the plan that was presented to all of us in heaven, which you already have heard about. The one who rebelled against our Father so much that he declared war against him is our brother who we now refer to as Satan.  Before he rebelled he was known by another name, but the word or name Satan has a specific meaning and that meaning applies specifically to him now.  If he had not rebelled then somebody else would be known by that name, whoever it would have been who decided to rebel against our Father in heaven. For some reason not everybody wants to be good.

This is one of many reasons why I don't believe in a devil or demons, and what can happen because people think they're being swayed/possessed by a devil or demon, I call BS. 

The article is about someone I know in my previous ward/stake. https://www.yahoo.com/now/mormon-church-sent-patients-sex-144928613.html

And a c/p of her statement on FB, and she approves for as many as can to know and share the article.

Thank you to all those that are sharing the Rolling Stone article, that are helping create awareness. Here is the article through yahoo, outside of the paywall.
To my LDS friends, I know the title is jarring, I ask you to read it anyway. When I came to the LDS church with my information, I had faith that they would listen and respond and that hasn’t been happening, regardless of what they say in the article.
Over the last year, I have had to beg and plead for them to take me seriously, even to take all my evidence. The letter they say they sent came ONLY after Rolling Stone reached out for comment, I have verified this and it saddens but doesn’t surprise me after this year. I only want to create change for anyone else who might come after me that reports abuse and that only comes through speaking up.
 
And another post on from her on FB:
 
This is difficult and sensitive for me to share and I’m afraid of speaking out but my hope is to protect others from what I went through, ***trigger warning for assault, difficult topics of abuse.
Maurice Harker was my therapist for the last eight years, he is the founder and director of Life Changing Services and runs a program called Sons of Helaman - Eternal Warriors. They have changed their privacy settings and I cannot tag them or leave a review on Facebook but I need to share what happened to me.
I saw Maurice Harker for eight years and during the last six years, he physically assaulted me by seeking to block my airway while trying to get a “demon” out of me.
For the first two years during my most vulnerable time seeking to heal childhood trauma, he “taught” me that all negative thoughts or feelings or behaviors I didn’t like about myself were demonic and not me but then he moved that into me being possessed by a demon and if the demon came out in session he had to cover my mouth and nose until I almost passed out which led to me fighting back to try and breathe, this was done hundreds of times over these last six years. During these years he broke my thumb, I had numerous bruises and black eyes. He worked hard to convince me that he was the only person I could trust and what was happening was my fault and it would be better for me to die by suicide than ever let anyone know what happened during sessions.
Early this year, I finally got the courage to tell a friend and have since reported him to the authorities and the licensing bureau and both agencies have active open investigations against him. My desire in coming forward is to tell my truth how I experienced it and protect others, I don’t want anyone to have to experience what I have gone through so I write this to encourage others to be careful seeking out services with him or his organization.
Edited by Tacenda
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you believe Satan is just as powerful as Jesus?

If not, Jesus and Satan are not opposites.

In Catholicism, the opposite of Satan is St. Michael, the archangel who bested him in the battle of heaven. They are both angels, so not comparable to God. A Google image search will show the common Catholic view of this. 

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3 hours ago, Brahms said:

 

What is the opposite of 100% good?  would be a more applicable question.

You made the claim there were opposites for everything,  I was pointing out that was wrong.

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