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Wheat and Tares and Tolerance


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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No I don't think I make assumptions ...

Then you are completely alone among the vast number of members of the human race.

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I've lived the consequences of these claims and observed others do the same.

With due respect, Ma'am, the question isn't whether someone has made the claims or whether the claims are harmful.  Rather, the question is whether a particular poster in this thread has made those claims.

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

People must recognised the impact of their beliefs and teachings. ...

Okay, but, again, the question is who has said what in this thread.

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16 hours ago, Brahms said:

Which word do you not understand?  I said denying Christ is not a good thing to do, ever. 

Better said if one really believes Jesus is what is claimed for him its probably not good to deny him.  But the question is was Jesus really what is claimed for him.  A lot of the world I guess denies Jesus is the savior and/or God and the Son of God.  

 

16 hours ago, Brahms said:

 

I meant denying him in the sense of rejecting him, both what and who he is.  I meant not a good thing in the sense of it being a bad thing.  Does that help you any? 

Actually I understood your point. I was just trying to get you or others to think it through some.

 

16 hours ago, Brahms said:

 

  

If by "mythical" you mean "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events." I would only clarify that you don't know enough about natural laws to honestly make that claim. 

Perhaps.

16 hours ago, Brahms said:

 

I don't believe anything or anyone is supernatural.

Supernatural is just a term to refer to something outside our understanding.

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4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Better said if one really believes Jesus is what is claimed for him its probably not good to deny him.  But the question is was Jesus really what is claimed for him.  A lot of the world I guess denies Jesus is the savior and/or God and the Son of God.  

That's a temporary situation.  Eventually everyone will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ.  They'll retain agency to choose to follow him or not, but nobody will be able to deny his position.  It's inevitable.

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That's a temporary situation.  Eventually everyone will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ.  They'll retain agency to choose to follow him or not, but nobody will be able to deny his position.  It's inevitable.

As you know I am skeptical that it is inevitable at all.  Jesus is likely dead just like every human that has or will live.

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56 minutes ago, Teancum said:

As you know I am skeptical that it is inevitable at all.  Jesus is likely dead just like every human that has or will live.

At least you wouldn't object to being proven wrong, I'll give you that.

I'd still love the job of greeting atheists as the pass through the veil.  The "oh crap, really?" reactions would never get old.

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33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

At least you wouldn't object to being proven wrong, I'll give you that.

I'd still love the job of greeting atheists as the pass through the veil.  The "oh crap, really?" reactions would never get old.

Years ago I thought I would enjoy grading papers.  In college I took the first class going into teaching.  I had to volunteer in a junior high math class and I graded the papers.  I hated it!  I hated making all those marks that said they got that problem wrong.  I didn't get out of teaching for that reason, but I've never missed it.  

Occasionally through years I've thought about the people who have mocked what I believed.  I've had such mixed feelings because part of me would like them to be sorry about mocking me - truly sorry, but the other part takes me back to that class  and I hope that me and everyone I've "met" are just welcomed in.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you be smugly satisfied ;) or be brimming over with excitement, exclaiming “yes, isn’t it wonderful?”.  I think it would be truly fun if they were happy about there being something more and not fearful or depressed…like a surprise party they actually want to happen, but don’t expect. 

According to Doctrine and Covenants 76, for many physical death will be one of the greatest of all imaginable ironies, for rather than experiencing an annihilation of consciousness they will actually be the recipients of the ultimate wake-up call, for they will be thrust down to hell” to suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until they finally learn to have faith in Christ and repent.

Edited by teddyaware
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If the wheat and tares parable refer to people, is there wheat among non-LDS Christians or are we all tares? Can a tare be converted into becoming wheat? That can't happen in the natural real agricultural world with which the parable listeners were familiar. The purpose of a parable is to teach a truth in language the listener understands. I think Christ's listeners understood that tares never become wheat. If that is true, what meaning does it add the truth told in the parable?

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On 10/7/2022 at 9:59 PM, Calm said:

And you accusing someone of saying something they didn’t say because someone else has said it in the past doesn’t help in the healing.  There is enough in Hamba’s post imo that given your viewpoint you can find as harmful to discuss and encourage change, no need to crank up the criticism to make it appear more extreme. Others will find it easier to dismiss extreme accusations than reasonable ones.  You want change to happen, be accurate.  Otherwise you come across as the intolerance you are preaching against.

 

No I am speaking about precisely what he said, and not letting it slide.

Tradition shouldn't be an excuse for hurting others, especially those who need us the most. Who hears these these teachings the most often and are the most likely to embed them into their minds?

I realize he is saying what many others have already said and basically what many church leaders have said. But ultimately we are responsible for what we say.

How do you think it feels to be an ex-Mormon and hear your father or someone else you love say that? Also how does it effect believers and impact the relationship they have with their selves and others?

And to be abundantly clear, I did not say "Mormons will suffer for eternity if they don't repent for being Mormon."

He did try to turn this into me generalising about a whole group of people, but on the contrary I am specifically speaking about harmful ideas and claims. There is a huge difference between them.

 

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6 hours ago, Navidad said:

If the wheat and tares parable refer to people, is there wheat among non-LDS Christians or are we all tares? Can a tare be converted into becoming wheat? That can't happen in the natural real agricultural world with which the parable listeners were familiar. The purpose of a parable is to teach a truth in language the listener understands. I think Christ's listeners understood that tares never become wheat. If that is true, what meaning does it add the truth told in the parable?

If that's the case, then they're not referring to people. I would think the most LDS-consistent interpretation would be more about separating the tare-ishness from the wheat-ishness within otherselves.

Personally I think the metaphor is too simplistic no matter how it is interpreted. 

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33 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No I am speaking about precisely what he said, and not letting it slide.

I don’t know why you are so locked into seeing it that way, but he is not saying what you say he is saying. 

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I think one of the challenges in a tight-knit forum like this is that we read each other's posts so often that we believe we know what the person is saying, said, or will say almost before they hit "submit reply." Then perhaps we read into or out of their posts what we think they said, based on generalization as much or more than what they actually said. Just my two cents.

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14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

At least you wouldn't object to being proven wrong, I'll give you that.

I'd still love the job of greeting atheists as the pass through the veil.  The "oh crap, really?" reactions would never get old.

Well I am not an atheist.  More agnostic with hope.

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48 minutes ago, Brahms said:

I understand the parable to imply that it is the seeds/doctrines/teachings which determine whether someone becomes wheat or a tare, based on which type of seed each person accepts to be sown within one's self.  The Lord further clarified for us that the seeds are sown by both apostles and Satan, apparently each sowing their own kind of seed, whether their seeds lead to the person becoming good or evil. 

Somehow the Lord Jesus Christ has the power to help us become a new creature.  Still a person, and still a child of our Father in heaven. but becoming good if we have been evil.  So in that sense a tare can become wheat. 

Thanks for the excellent response. My only difference with your comment would be that I don't believe we ever become good." I think we are "declared good" (Ro 5:1) because through our acceptance of the sufficiency of the atonement we are covered with the blood (righteousness) of Christ. "There is none righteous, no not one." (Ro 3:10) Righteous is a higher standard than good. I think it is similar to the struggle I see in some of my LDS friends to be "worthy." I have given up that quest 50 years ago. I now count on the worthiness of Christ and if I strive for anything, it is to abide (remain, dwell) (John 15:4-6) in and with Him.

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20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

At least you wouldn't object to being proven wrong, I'll give you that.

I'd still love the job of greeting atheists as the pass through the veil.  The "oh crap, really?" reactions would never get old.

Methinks on the other side of the veil there will be neither atheists, Mennonites, Catholics, or members of the LDS church. Ditto for the other side of the judgment seat!

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On 10/9/2022 at 9:27 AM, Teancum said:

Well I am not an atheist.  More agnostic with hope.

Me too. I'm kind of hoping I'll get to experience seeing the Schadenfreude of the "I told you so" crowd. But my suspicion is that I'll die and that will be it. I won't know any better because I will no longer have a consciousness. 

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1 hour ago, Brahms said:

Sometimes I wish I did not know so that I could be surprised when I die.  I suppose I will still be surprised by some things I don't know now, though.  Like which way to go to find the sentinels on the path back to God.  I'll have 360 degrees to choose from. 

I'm not too worried about it. If I'm wrong, at least I can brighten JLHPROF's day by smacking my forehead and saying, "Oh, crap! There really is an afterlife."

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  • 2 months later...
On 10/2/2022 at 9:53 AM, rpn said:

I think the wrong takeaway from the parallel is that we are supposed to be hunting or pointing out tares.   That is likely the prophet's charge, and a bishop's for his own congregation.  But too often humans make judgments about others that are completely wrong, and often unrighteous.   

According to the parable, separating the wheat from the tares comes at the end of the age, and that job is given to the angels:

On 10/1/2022 at 8:37 PM, PeaceKeeper said:

When Jesus’ disciples were alone with him, they asked him to explain the parable. Jesus said that the sower of the good seed represented himself and the Apostles; the field represented the world; the good seed, his righteous followers; and the tares, those who follow Satan. Satan was the sower of the tares. The harvest represented the end of the world, and the reapers represented angels.

It sure sounds to me like anyone who is not at least an angel is not in a position to judge who is wheat and who is tare.  And specifically, it is not the role of the wheat to judge who is wheat and who is tare. 

Edited by manol
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