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Racial Slur at BYU Game - Real or Hoax?


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5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@jkwilliams

Yeah, well, what do I  know?  I went to a really racist school, a school that has to have been racist because its very name used to contain a geographic descriptor that, often, is used to refer to the southern United States, and, therefore, ipso facto and res ipsa loquitur, is racist.

What does that have to do with anything I’ve said? I don’t believe BYU students and fans are racists, but I understand why we have that reputation. If this is a hoax, it only works because it fits that reputation. And that makes me sad. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Carville is not on the right.

Carville and Maher rightly point to some of the extremism of the left.  And foolishness.  But they don't do what say our buddy Teddy does.  Just use it as a pejorative ot mean anyone shoes let wing politics I do not like.  By they way I think it funny to see conservatives quite Carville and Maher when it fits their agenda but ignore them when they don't.  Carville has said Trump/Maga voters are frankly, stupid.

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SMAC, I think you overstated your case.

1--- Misidentification are very very common in the circumstances of this incident.

2 ---The fact that the misidentified person didn't do it is not equal to NO ONE DID IT.

3--- Why would the player have any reason at all to lie?  (Which isn't to say she might have misheard, but that just doesn't seem very likely unless someone primed her before she came to BYU that that behavior was likely.)

4 --- Until everyone in those stands is personally interviewed under oath and denies having done it AND denied hearing anything that could have been misunderstood as it  and denied hearing it specifically, we cannot even begin to take the leap you are making.

 

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Looks like Richardson heard something. Duke and BYU staff were both sent into the audience after that happened. 

It is objectively true at this point that sustained racial heckling did not occur. No evidence beyond Richardson's testimony has been provided that the original incident of racial heckling occurred. If the UVU fan was banned for approaching the away team there's nothing wrong with that. 

The Rorscharch test article was a pretty good read. 

Richardson's relatives' inflations of the events were reprehensible and, to the extent that Richardson goes along with them, her credibility is vacated. 

Edited by OGHoosier
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10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m guessing you didn’t read through the exhaustive original post, because if you did you’d understand the reason why the young man was banned for life was because he approached Richardson after the game and in some way made her “feel uncomfortable.” According to Richardson’s blatantly anti-white Godmother, Lesa Pamplin, Richardson actually felt fearful because the banned individual supposedly threatened her with harm when he said, “you’d better watch your back.”

If this does turn out to be another Jussie Smolett type hoax, it’s very likely Richardson was emboldened to pull off her deceitful stunt because she was very confident the woke multitudes would continue to strongly back her, whether she told the truth or not, based on the widespread belief among woke progressives that the “Mormon church” is endemically racist and deserves to be condemned on general principles alone, even if Richardson is spewing a nothing but a pack of lies. In other words, to the woke mob it doesn’t matter in the slightest whether or not Richardson is lying because BYU is only getting what it richly deserves.

Which is very vague. How did he make her uncomfortable?

Your entire second paragraph is a bunch of wish fulfillment fantasy hate porn.

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I watched all 7 video clips at the time the player was serving. With the yelling and screaming going on from the entire crowd I don't see how anyone can hear any specific thing that is being said from one person.

Edited by JAHS
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2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I like BYU just fine.  And I don't begrudge the administration their jobs.  It's a tough gig.

But I think the rush to placate Duke was problematic.  The banning of the UVU student was unfair and should be reversed.  BYUPD handing the investigation off to the administration seems problematic given that this takes it (the investigation) outside the realm of government records requests.  If BYUPD is handing this off so as to frustrate such requests, I find that troubling.

I also think that BYU ought to publish its findings, whatever they are.  This has been hashed out in the public sphere, and BYU has taken a serious drubbing.  The individual decisionmakers at BYU need to have both the gumption to apologize for misbehavior, but also - if the investigation yields bupkis - stand up and defend BYU against apparently false allegations - or at least be clear that the investigation did not yield any evidence supporting the Duke player's accusations.  I also think BYU should publicly retract their banning of the UVU guy. 

If we are going to have a "long discussion" about race, it ought to include addressing all the uncomfortable aspects of it, including racebaiting and race hoaxes.

Consider this interview of Wilfred Reilly, author of Hate Crime Hoax: How the Left is Selling a Fake Race War

Thanks,

-Smac

The police handed it off because this is not a criminal matter. I hope you’re not advocating the police ought to start policing free speech. Any investigation results can be made public in a civil lawsuit if it comes to that. But I don’t think it will come to that and, besides, this is where old fashioned journalism (and new fashioned internet sleuthing) can really shine. And frankly, it has so far for the most part. 

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It would be an interesting experiment, the next time there is a big crowd at the field house,  have a person or 2 shout something provocative... let's say " orange man bad" a few times while the crowd is loudest and see if anyone notices or if the video mics can pick it up.

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2 hours ago, rpn said:

SMAC, I think you overstated your case.

1--- Misidentification are very very common in the circumstances of this incident.

2 ---The fact that the misidentified person didn't do it is not equal to NO ONE DID IT.

3--- Why would the player have any reason at all to lie?  (Which isn't to say she might have misheard, but that just doesn't seem very likely unless someone primed her before she came to BYU that that behavior was likely.)

4 --- Until everyone in those stands is personally interviewed under oath and denies having done it AND denied hearing anything that could have been misunderstood as it  and denied hearing it specifically, we cannot even begin to take the leap you are making.

 

1 - So is 'mishearing'.

2. This is correct.

3. I don't believe she lied though it is reasonably possible. I believe if you're sensitized to the possibility of being mistreated because of your race you are more likely to 'mishear' things that didn't happen.

4. People can still lie in personal interviews even under oath. The fact is that thus far we have nothing to corroborate her allegation and as such, it must be relegated to only that - unsubstantiated allegation. And then we all need to move on...

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Which is very vague. How did he make her uncomfortable?

Your entire second paragraph is a bunch of wish fulfillment fantasy hate porn.

The godmother, Lesa Pamplin, said Richardson was loudly called the N-word each time she served, and that the same slur increased in volume, fervor and intensity as the game progressed. The godmother also said Richardson told her that the same “racist heckler” approached her after the game and threatened her when he supposedly said, “you’d better watch your back!” By the way, Pamplin is provably an embittered anti-white racist, which you will easily be able verify by reading the portions of the original post that deal with Pamplins hate filled Twitter posts.

The second paragraph is only “wish fulfillment fantasy porn” if the incident doesn’t prove to be a hoax, and considering the hate merchant Pamplin’s involvement, her previous false racial harassment allegation , and the total lack of evidence, this appears to be less and less likely. A question: If this incident does prove to be a diabolical Jussie Smolett type race hoax, will you still call it fantasy porn or will you apologize to me? Don’t bother to answer, woke progressives never apologize for anything they do or say, even when it’s proven beyond all doubt that they are wrong.

Edited by teddyaware
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24 minutes ago, JarMan said:

The police handed it off because this is not a criminal matter.  

Are you sure?  From Rachel Richardson's published statement: "The slurs and comments grew into threats and caused us to feel unsafe."

From her godmother (who was not in attendance) : "Rachel Richardson, a Black starter on Duke’s team, was called the n-word 'every time she served,' and was threatened by 'a white male that told her to watch her back going to the team bus.'"

How are threats like this "not a criminal matter?"

24 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I hope you’re not advocating the police ought to start policing free speech.

I am not.  Broadly speaking, threats are not considered protectible speech.

24 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Any investigation results can be made public in a civil lawsuit if it comes to that.

Or the "investigation" can be buried, since an "investigation" by BYU admin is not subject to public records laws, whereas records from a BYUPD investigation would be.

24 minutes ago, JarMan said:

But I don’t think it will come to that

I don't either.  Hence my concern about BYUPD stopping its investigation.

24 minutes ago, JarMan said:

and, besides, this is where old fashioned journalism (and new fashioned internet sleuthing) can really shine. And frankly, it has so far for the most part. 

I agree.  Props to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Not much good to say about BYU's athletic department, whom I suspect will be sweeping this under the rug.

Thanks,

-Smac

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16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Are you sure?  From Rachel Richardson's published statement: "The slurs and comments grew into threats and caused us to feel unsafe."

From her godmother (who was not in attendance) : "Rachel Richardson, a Black starter on Duke’s team, was called the n-word 'every time she served,' and was threatened by 'a white male that told her to watch her back going to the team bus.'"

How are threats like this "not a criminal matter?"

I am not.  Broadly speaking, threats are not considered protectible speech.

Or the "investigation" can be buried, since an "investigation" by BYU admin is not subject to public records laws, whereas records from a BYUPD investigation would be.

I don't either.  Hence my concern about BYUPD stopping its investigation.

I agree.  Props to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Not much good to say about BYU's athletic department, whom I suspect will be sweeping this under the rug.

Thanks,

-Smac

The BYU police apparently determined there was no criminal action, so they concluded their investigation. Doesn't that sound reasonable?

I think BYU will be forthcoming with their investigation and, all things considered, did a decent job responding. However, I suspect the person accused by the volleyball player will file a civil action both against Duke and BYU. BYU has every reason to be transparent since they will be expecting a civil lawsuit.

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Quote

now, I'm supposed to believe that the n-word rained down on Rachel Richardson and on her Black teammates ("clearly and distinctly," even though it came from a mob) like the excrement of a thousand pigeons ... Now, granted, it's possible that I've simply lived a sheltered life.  My hearing isn't the best, so perhaps people use it in my presence all the time and I'm simply unaware of it (I spend much of my time alone, and in fairly solitary pursuits,anyway, so I suppose if anyone were to use it in my presence, that person would be ... me :  And if I'm using it, I guess I'm just going to have to sit down and have a serious talk with myself.)

Ken, I like a lot of what you write, but using your own experience of a racial slur to determine the realistic experience of an individual who is a member of the group that is targeted by its use is absurd. 

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The godmother, Lesa Pamplin, said Richardson was loudly called the N-word each time she served, and that the same slur increased in volume, fervor and intensity as the game progressed. The godmother also said Richardson told her that the same “racist heckler” approached her after the game and threatened her when he supposedly said, “you’d better watch your back!” By the way, Pamplin is provably an embittered anti-white racist, which you will easily be able verify by reading the portions of the original post that deal with Pamplins hate filled Twitter posts.

The second paragraph is only “wish fulfillment fantasy porn” if the incident doesn’t prove to be a hoax, and considering the hate merchant Pamplin’s involvement, her previous false racial harassment allegation , and the total lack of evidence, this appears to be less and less likely. A question: If this incident does prove to be a diabolical Jussie Smolett type race hoax, will you still call it fantasy porn or will you apologize to me? Don’t bother to answer, woke progressives never apologize for anything they do or say, even when it’s proven beyond all doubt that they are wrong.

I have no idea what Pamplin was told or how accurately her story was repeated. I don’t give her ‘hearsay’ story much credence. Digging up Twitter comments and a story over a decade ago about what appeared to be minor email fraud is just window dressing. It does make the hate porn much sexier though doesn’t it?

No, I wouldn’t apologize. It would still be hate porn. It would just be hate porn based on facts.

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5 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Richardson's relatives' inflations of the events were reprehensible and, to the extent that Richardson goes along with them, her credibility is vacated. 

The way our brains work, I would not be the least surprised if in the mass of noise Richardson heard something that sounded to her like a slur, whether because she was primed to hear it due to what she had been told about BYU by others or because of other past experiences.  At that point she becomes hyper vigilant, on edge for the rest of the game, prepared to ‘fight’ and her brain translates other sounds to match her expectations of attack. When we are anxious, angry, etc, and we are looking for reasons to explain those feelings, our brains typically find us plenty of reasons even if they aren’t real. 
 

So while her claim there was an extended attack of slurs and heckling all through the game makes her appear to be more dubious than a claim of a one time occurrence, it is well within the possibility of someone who been upset already to hear additional things that confirm their fears/anger even when those sounds aren’t really what they think they hear. That can happen in a quiet surrounding and it sure can happen in a loud, chaotic wave of noise that is a sports crowd. So many different sounds are hitting the ear at once, any nonexistent pattern can likely be isolated by our brains. 
 

If anyone has a hard time believing this, look up how stress is known to cause what is labeled as auditory hallucinations, a more extreme version of what I am suggesting likely happened here.  Also auditory pareidolia, hearing patterns in noise that aren’t really there. 
 

Added:  interesting article in part about hearing what we are expecting to hear

https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/audio-pareidolia-and-the-chauvin-trial/

It’s always important not to over-interpret evidence, of any kind. We all bring our personal experiences, expectations, and assumptions to bear on everything we experience and remember. It’s not inherently good nor bad—it’s just how the human brain works. But the first step to minimizing the problem is recognizing the psychological and social contexts, the prisms through which we interpret and understand the world. And the best way to do that, of course, is through skepticism and critical thinking.”

Edited by Calm
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40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ken, I like a lot of what you write, but using your own experience of a racial slur to determine the realistic experience of an individual who is a member of the group that is targeted by its use is absurd. 

With due respect, Ma'am, The very excerpt you quoted of what I wrote acknowledged the very limitations of my observations that you seem to think I am ignoring.

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Here's an idea: Pick a date certain for the party who is, or the parties who are, guilty of hurling racial slurs at Ms. Richardson and her teammates to come forward.  If no one comes forward by that date certain, cancel the rest of the BYU Women's Volleyball season.*

*Does such an ameliorative measure seem extreme?  Disproportionate?  Unfair?  In many ways, no doubt, it is, but it is no worse than picking one fan to serve as the Sacrificial Lamb on the Altar of Non-Racism and banning that fan from attendance at BYU athletic events indefinitely.  ("Congratulations, Sir!  You're 1 in 5,000!")  If we're really interested in stamping out the rampant racism at BYU, let's go all-in!

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23 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

With due respect, Ma'am, The very excerpt you quoted of what I wrote acknowledged the very limitations of my observations that you seem to think I am ignoring.

That you even bring it up when it is actually irrelevant, Ken…

Edited by Calm
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29 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Here's an idea: Pick a date certain for the party who is, or the parties who are, guilty of hurling racial slurs at Ms. Richardson and her teammates to come forward.  If no one comes forward by that date certain, cancel the rest of the BYU Women's Volleyball season.*

*Does such an ameliorative measure seem extreme?  Disproportionate?  Unfair?  In many ways, no doubt, it is, but it is no worse than picking one fan to serve as the Sacrificial Lamb on the Altar of Non-Racism and banning that fan from attendance at BYU athletic events indefinitely.  ("Congratulations, Sir!  You're 1 in 5,000!")  If we're really interested in stamping out the rampant racism at BYU, let's go all-in!

Not a bad idea, except what if no one did hear anything and then their BYU Women's Volley ball season is nixed?

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19 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It’s  been interesting this story hit major national conservative press today. Both radio and tv. 
 

So many seem to think the Cougar Chronicle is a student paper. A mistake I’ve heard often. 

There is a Cougar Chronicle that is a student newspaper.

https://www.thecougarchronicle.org

The Cougar Chronicle is a student-led newspaper that focuses on every aspect of the world and the community it thrives in. The Cougar Chronicle is the quarterly product of its respective club at Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy. 

Our newspaper is by students, for everyone.


added:  more than one

https://csusmchronicle.com

https://cougarchronicle.org

——

It may not be an school paper, but it appears to be a student one, though it could be nonstudents thinking they represent students…

Quote

BYU Conservatives and its affiliates The Cougar Chronicle and the Red Pill Blue Blood podcast, were created to represent classical liberals to conservative leaning students on campus…We  want to give a voice to students who feel as though their views are being silenced in the classroom. 

https://www.byucougarchronicle.org/about

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not a bad idea, except what if no one did hear anything and then their BYU Women's Volley ball season is nixed?

Exactly.  But if BYU is really committed to doing something about racism on campus and/or at athletic events ...

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have no idea what Pamplin was told or how accurately her story was repeated. I don’t give her ‘hearsay’ story much credence. Digging up Twitter comments and a story over a decade ago about what appeared to be minor email fraud is just window dressing. It does make the hate porn much sexier though doesn’t it?

No, I wouldn’t apologize. It would still be hate porn. It would just be hate porn based on facts.

Your last comment perfectly exemplifies the woke progressive approach to truth— even when they’re wrong they’re right!

And I find it amusing that you condemn my plausible explanations for what happened at that volleyball game as hate porn (especially in light of Pamplin’s demonstrable record of being flamboyantly anti-white) while you’re apparently blissfully unaware of the fact that you’re a real first class purveyor hate porn yourself, with all of your smug calls for physical violence against those with whom you disagree. But again, this is another perfect example of how woke progressives are so lacking in self awareness. I haven’t ever called for physical violence in any of my post but you have, yet you so easily let the words “hate porn” flow from your self-righteous lips when you’re  guilty of the very thing that you unfairly accuse me of doing. But isn’t this what being woke is all about? it’s never having to take the mote out of your own eye because you’re already of such exceeding righteousness that it doesn’t matter.

Edited by teddyaware
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3 hours ago, Calm said:

The way our brains work, I would not be the least surprised if in the mass of noise Richardson heard something that sounded to her like a slur, whether because she was primed to hear it due to what she had been told about BYU by others or because of other past experiences.  At that point she becomes hyper vigilant, on edge for the rest of the game, prepared to ‘fight’ and her brain translates other sounds to match her expectations of attack. When we are anxious, angry, etc, and we are looking for reasons to explain those feelings, our brains typically find us plenty of reasons even if they aren’t real. 
 

So while her claim there was an extended attack of slurs and heckling all through the game makes her appear to be more dubious than a claim of a one time occurrence, it is well within the possibility of someone who been upset already to hear additional things that confirm their fears/anger even when those sounds aren’t really what they think they hear. That can happen in a quiet surrounding and it sure can happen in a loud, chaotic wave of noise that is a sports crowd. So many different sounds are hitting the ear at once, any nonexistent pattern can likely be isolated by our brains. 
 

If anyone has a hard time believing this, look up how stress is known to cause what is labeled as auditory hallucinations, a more extreme version of what I am suggesting likely happened here.  Also auditory pareidolia, hearing patterns in noise that aren’t really there. 
 

Added:  interesting article in part about hearing what we are expecting to hear

https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/audio-pareidolia-and-the-chauvin-trial/

It’s always important not to over-interpret evidence, of any kind. We all bring our personal experiences, expectations, and assumptions to bear on everything we experience and remember. It’s not inherently good nor bad—it’s just how the human brain works. But the first step to minimizing the problem is recognizing the psychological and social contexts, the prisms through which we interpret and understand the world. And the best way to do that, of course, is through skepticism and critical thinking.”

Granting all that, the video evidence and eyewitness testimony is still adamantly clear that there was no sustained racial heckling. If Robinson unconsciously interpreted crowd noise as sustained racial heckling and maintains that position, then her credibility is still damaged. The fault in her credibility would be one of perception as opposed to honesty, but it is still a problem. 

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