Tithing Settlement is now Tithing Declaration

[ttribe]

33 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree, these are desperate efforts. The righteousness of the church is waning and we should be concerned.

How in the world does changing the name from 'Tithing Settlement' to 'Tithing Declaration' help with that goal?

[Amulek]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

I don't do it with the bishop, but I did go through the church records.  Sometimes tithing was recorded as a fast offering or vice versa.  Other things like this.  Then I word tell the financial clerk.

Quite so. It isn't that members are disinterested in reconciling their statements, it's just that - in practice - most who do so aren't actually using their "tithing settlement" meeting with the Bishop for that purpose.

I would say that, for the overwhelming majority of members, tithing settlement was already (functionally) a "tithing declaration" meeting.

 

[InCognitus]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was worried at first when I thought it needed to be signed for tax purposes.

I've been audited by the IRS twice now, the first time was for my charitable contributions and business expenses (I had a lot of driving mileage at the time), and the second time was for my charitable contributions only.  This happened in the 2006-2008 period before we could pay tithing online.  In both cases I had to provide canceled checks from the bank to back up my charitable contributions.  The first audit resulted in a $500 refund to me because I had missed a child tax credit on my return.  You would think they would have learned something from the first audit, so I was really surprised by the second audit on charitable contributions two years later.  

I don't know what the IRS will require as proof for online payments now.  I hope I never need to find out.   But I'm pretty sure the piece of paper we print from the church (either signed or not signed) won't be sufficient.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I have a couple of members who don't pay anything most of the year and on the last week of the year pay for the whole year, so there is often a zero on their statement when they see the Bishop.

OK, I guess. I'd do that if I thought I had enough organization to carry it off. I tend to forget to do things I'm supposed to do, so I got my bank doing it for me each month.

Still, what's the issue with calling it one thing instead of another?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

More desperate efforts.  Same as the missionary thread. Missionaries are down so let's pressure the YM more. Tithing  is down so let's find a way to increase it.  THe church is slowly withering away

Is tithing down?

And if it is, how does this "change that doesn't actually change anything" (as ttribe put it) going to increase it?

Edited August 11, 2022 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

I think the name change actually brings the name more into alignment with what was actually happening.

Most people aren't sitting around during tithing settlement with their checkbook records, ledgers, spreadsheets, QuickBooks reports, etc. and actually reviewing the numbers with their bishop and determining whether or not they needed to make any adjustments to "settle" their account for the year.

No, it was mostly an opportunity to meet with families, talk about tithing, and then ask those who were members to declare their tithing status.

Our bishop actually did away with the printouts several years back. They were mostly a waste of time and nobody has been upset by the change.

 

I agree.  Which is why this all seems like a name change and earlier start date and nothing more.

(and I'm fine with that and don't consider it to be a negative.  I just wanted to make sure that I was understanding the news release the same way everyone else is and wasn't missing something).

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I agree, these are desperate efforts. The righteousness of the church is waning and we should be concerned.

How does a name change equal "desperate efforts"?  Sincere question.  I'm just not seeing how a name change to the end of the year tithing meeting is meant to create an impact on tithing donations.

[webbles]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

A rose by any other name? I suppose "tithing settlement" has a connotation of just paying the tithing that is owed to settle the account, whereas Tithing Declaration is more of a communication to the Bishop about one's general tithing status.

Could this be related to other languages?  The Presiding Bishop is French so this could be clearing up possible confusion in other languages that is only a minor confusion in English.  I've never really seen this meeting as a "settlement" and did feel like it was the wrong word.  It has always been more of a "declaration" so the name change makes sense as it is just correcting it to what it really is (at least for me).

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Or more are understanding the Church is simply not what it claims to be and are thus not willing to devote their time and resources to such an organization.  That is at least my conclusion.  And the church is now missing out on thousands of hours of my time and tens of thousands of my tithing. And I am not alone.

Do you really think the Church is missing out on your tithing? From the sounds of it, the Church doesn't need your tithing, nor anyone's for the foreseeable future. I'm pretty sure they have enough to keep the lights running. But maybe from a different perspective, you may be missing out on spiritual blessings that God has in store for you because of not paying tithing.

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How does a name change equal "desperate efforts"?  Sincere question.  I'm just not seeing how a name change to the end of the year tithing meeting is meant to create an impact on tithing donations.

Changing "Beehives" to "young women 11 to 14" (or whatever) was a desperate effort.  Too many bishops were confused by calls from members asking "Are you aware that there's a beehive in one of the trees in the church parking lot?"*  But "Tithing Declaration"?   That makes total sense, since that's exactly what it is.

Edit: *  That's a true story, but to my knowledge it only happened once  

Edited August 11, 2022 by InCognitus

[Chum]

23 minutes ago, filovirus said:

you may be missing out on spiritual blessings that God has in store for you because of not paying tithing.

Okay so I know no one on the forum can actually help me with this. Instead, here's an open letter to Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father:

I paid my tithing faithfully for over a generation. Throughout that time, our lives became increasingly difficult and miserable - until the last decade where we were cutting vital services, until food was exclusively plain white rice or not even that. I finally stopped paying tithing and about that same minute our lives finally turned around. Dramatically. Today, we're about 3 years into our first small measure of security.

HF, you must fully understand the concept of positive reinforcement so I am baffled why the blessings we enjoyed from tithing were so indistinguishable from Hell. I am not angry and I am not being confrontational here. I do not believe our experience is at all representative of tithe-paying in general. However, I genuinely don't know how to math our particular 30 years into something other than tithing destroys lives.

Any insight or clarity you could give would be tremendously appreciated.

As always, your Chum.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Chum

[Durangout]

The entire process is an outmoded and unnecessary tradition as it’s a hold over from agrarian days.

Do we have Law of Chastity declaration meetings?  Do we have Keep the Sabbath  Day Holy declaration meetings?  Do we have The WOW declaration meetings? Do we have keeping Temple covenants declaration meetings?…Actually we do—every 2 years when we have a temple recommend interview.

Why the emphasis on tithing?  Is it more important than all the other commandments?

 I guess this is a start in the right direction but really tithing settlement er, uh, declaration (pssst, the marketing and rebranding in The Church is getting old) should be entirely done away with.  The time and resources could be put to much better use.
 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Durangout

[JustAnAustralian]

18 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Why the emphasis on tithing?

Each year the bishop has to go through a list on the computer of every member is his ward and select their declared tithing status, full, part, non, etc. If a member doesn't physically declare they are a full tithe payer, the bishop can't honestly mark down full tithe payer as their declaration.

Tithing status (of a ward/stake) is one of the things looked at when changes are made in an area (new buildings etc). TR counts alone aren't enough because you can be a full tithe payer without having a temple recommend.

Edited August 11, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Okay so I know no one on the forum can actually help me with this. Instead, here's an open letter to Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father:

I paid my tithing faithfully for over a generation. Throughout that time, our lives became increasingly difficult and miserable - until the last decade where we were cutting vital services, until food was exclusively plain white rice or not even that. I finally stopped paying tithing and about that same minute our lives finally turned around. Dramatically. Today, we're about 3 years into our first small measure of security.

HF, you must fully understand the concept of positive reinforcement so I am baffled why the blessings we enjoyed from tithing were so indistinguishable from Hell. I am not angry and I am not being confrontational here. I do not believe our experience is at all representative of tithe-paying in general. However, I genuinely don't know how to math our particular 30 years into something other than tithing destroys lives.

Any insight or clarity you could give would be tremendously appreciated.

As always, your Chum.

If I learned anything from Job last week, it's that things go downhill fast when friends try to "explain" why God did something to a different friend, so I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole...

But I will say that I had a similar (not tithing related) thing happen to me where the opposite of what I had been taught would happen, happened, and it wrecked me for a while--I was angry--and it caused some trauma with my relationship with God.

Dealing with that and moving through it (it took a while and there's probably still some residual stuff buried somewhere), created a relationship with God and with my Savior that didn't exist before, one that included a whole lot more trust and was much closer, but the one thing that I never got was an explanation.  I'm still hoping that will come eventually.

Edit to add: just offering some empathy Brother Chum.  It’s a hard/confusing place to be. I appreciate your open letter to God. There is room for questions and faith. Thank goodness. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by bluebell

[Amulek]

42 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Why the emphasis on tithing?  Is it more important than all the other commandments?

I don't know that it's more "important" than other commandments, but I do think that (as a metric) tithing is a pretty good key performance indicator for unit health. 

Annually tracking the number of members who are willing to 'put their money where their mouth is' in a given area seems like useful information for church leaders to have. 

 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Could this be related to other languages?  The Presiding Bishop is French so this could be clearing up possible confusion in other languages that is only a minor confusion in English.  I've never really seen this meeting as a "settlement" and did feel like it was the wrong word.  It has always been more of a "declaration" so the name change makes sense as it is just correcting it to what it really is (at least for me).

 In German "Tithing Settlement" translates to Zehntenerklärung which translates back to English as Tithing Declaration, so yes it can be related to different languages.

What will be done at Tithing Declaration will be no different that what was done during Tithing Settlement; it is a better term for it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Could this be related to other languages?  The Presiding Bishop is French so this could be clearing up possible confusion in other languages that is only a minor confusion in English.  I've never really seen this meeting as a "settlement" and did feel like it was the wrong word.  It has always been more of a "declaration" so the name change makes sense as it is just correcting it to what it really is (at least for me).

It makes sense that as we become more global in our church culture (as we really need to) that they are changing or removing names that are likely to be unsuccessful in other languages, especially if not particularly on target even in English. 
 

Which is probably why the rejection of any names at this point for YW. My guess is the intent is to eventually come up with something as that would explain the bar on a ward making up their own (they don’t want conflict or confusion in the future when the global change takes place. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Calm

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

It makes sense that as we become more global in our church culture (as we really need to) that they are changing or removing names that are likely to be unsuccessful in other languages, especially if not particularly on target even in English. 
 

Which is probably why the rejection of any names at this point for YW. My guess is the intent is to eventually come up with something as that would explain the bar on a ward making up their own (they don’t want conflict or confusion in the future when the global change takes place. 

On my mission in Austria(German speaking) we could not call ourselves Elder in German because the word in German means "old man". Same thing for Spanish.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

How does a name change equal "desperate efforts"?  Sincere question.  I'm just not seeing how a name change to the end of the year tithing meeting is meant to create an impact on tithing donations.

It’s not. I was just responding 

[SteveO]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Okay so I know no one on the forum can actually help me with this. Instead, here's an open letter to Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father:

I paid my tithing faithfully for over a generation. Throughout that time, our lives became increasingly difficult and miserable - until the last decade where we were cutting vital services, until food was exclusively plain white rice or not even that. I finally stopped paying tithing and about that same minute our lives finally turned around. Dramatically. Today, we're about 3 years into our first small measure of security.

HF, you must fully understand the concept of positive reinforcement so I am baffled why the blessings we enjoyed from tithing were so indistinguishable from Hell. I am not angry and I am not being confrontational here. I do not believe our experience is at all representative of tithe-paying in general. However, I genuinely don't know how to math our particular 30 years into something other than tithing destroys lives.

Any insight or clarity you could give would be tremendously appreciated.

As always, your Chum.

10% was the difference between white rice and caviar?

[ttribe]

11 minutes ago, SteveO said:

10% was the difference between white rice and caviar?

He said nothing of the sort. Good grief, how classless.

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Okay so I know no one on the forum can actually help me with this. Instead, here's an open letter to Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father:

I paid my tithing faithfully for over a generation. Throughout that time, our lives became increasingly difficult and miserable - until the last decade where we were cutting vital services, until food was exclusively plain white rice or not even that. I finally stopped paying tithing and about that same minute our lives finally turned around. Dramatically. Today, we're about 3 years into our first small measure of security.

HF, you must fully understand the concept of positive reinforcement so I am baffled why the blessings we enjoyed from tithing were so indistinguishable from Hell. I am not angry and I am not being confrontational here. I do not believe our experience is at all representative of tithe-paying in general. However, I genuinely don't know how to math our particular 30 years into something other than tithing destroys lives.

Any insight or clarity you could give would be tremendously appreciated.

As always, your Chum.

I really doubt 10% is going to actually make such a difference financially as you have described. I suspect other factors were involved.
Perhaps you were paying tithing for the wrong reason. We don't pay it to get blessings; we pay it because we love God and want to be obedient.

I suspect things would have still turned to your favor if you had kept on paying tithing. Bad timing perhaps?

Edited August 12, 2022 by JAHS

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I really doubt 10% is going to actually make such a difference financially as you have described. I suspect other factors were involved.
Perhaps you were paying tithing for the wrong reason. We don't pay it to get blessings; we pay it because we love God and want to be obedient.

That's now the second time someone has basically called Chum a liar for reporting on his own experience. Why do you think that is okay?

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

He said nothing of the sort. Good grief, how classless.

Classless would be an obnoxious open letter to God asking why 10% was the difference between misery and success.

I’d speculate some bias, exaggeration, and a lack of self reflection as contributing somewhat to why someone and their family was financially stagnant and miserable for 30 years because of 10%. Maybe lack of humility for not going to the bishop and asking for help.

 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

That's now the second time someone has basically called Chum a liar for reporting on his own experience. Why do you think that is okay?

I just think people who leave the church are just as prone to exaggeration and tall tales they ironically criticize the members and leadership for falling into.