Tithing Settlement is now Tithing Declaration

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Classless would be an obnoxious open letter to God asking why 10% was the difference between misery and success.

I’d speculate some bias, exaggeration, and a lack of self reflection as contributing somewhat to why someone and their family was financially stagnant and miserable for 30 years because of 10%. Maybe lack of humility for not going to the bishop and asking for help.

 

 

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

I just think people who leave the church are just as prone to exaggeration and tall tales they ironically criticize the members and leadership for falling into.

Speculation without evidence to call a man a liar for reporting on his own experience. You really think that's an appropriate tactic for someone claiming to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do the ends just justify the means?

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

 

Speculation without evidence to call a man a liar for reporting on his own experience. You really think that's an appropriate tactic for someone claiming to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do the ends just justify the means?

Dudebro, I just performed a miracle.  This guy writes an open letter asking God for clarity.  And I just opened his eyes.  I gave him answers, maybe answers that have been eluding him for decades since his 30 years in “Liberty Jail” ended.
 

 

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Dudebro, I just performed a miracle.  This guy writes an open letter asking God for clarity.  And I just opened his eyes.  I gave him answers, maybe answers that have been eluding him for decades since his 30 years in “Liberty Jail” ended.
 

 

I'm not your "Dudebro" and you didn't actually answer the question. Clearly you think personal attacks and sarcasm are appropriate defense tactics. That's informative.

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

I'm not your "Dudebro" and you didn't actually answer the question. Clearly you think personal attacks and sarcasm are appropriate defense tactics. That's informative.

I do think that a guy writing an open letter to God claiming that tithing was the reason his family was eating rice (and *gasp* maybe not even that!) deserves at least an eye roll and is wholly undeserving of serious consideration.  
 

I mean, you believe that without question and reject the first vision?  That’s informative.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

I do think that a guy writing an open letter to God claiming that tithing was the reason his family was eating rice (and *gasp* maybe not even that!) deserves at least an eye roll and is wholly undeserving of serious consideration.  
 

I mean, you believe that without question and reject the first vision?  That’s informative.

I didn't express my opinion, did I? I criticized your attack tactics.

ETA: On the whole, however, simple reasoning certainly suggests that a guy talking about a contributing factor for his poverty to be donating 10% of his income to a church is significantly more believable than a teen who had already been hauled into court for fraud ("glass looking) saying that he saw God in a grove of trees. Your mileage may vary of course.

Edited August 12, 2022 by ttribe

[JAHS]

26 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's now the second time someone has basically called Chum a liar for reporting on his own experience. Why do you think that is okay?

Not calling him a liar. In my opinion I just don't think we are getting all the details. He might just as well have prospered like he said had he continued to pay tithing. 
A person who pays tithing can ask for help from the Bishop that could have made up the difference.

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Not calling him a liar. In my opinion I just don't think we are getting all the details. He might just as well have prospered like he said had he continued to pay tithing. 
A person who pays tithing can ask for help from the Bishop that could have made up the difference.

Your statement - "I really doubt 10% is going to actually make such a difference financially as you have described."

How is that not saying he's being dishonest?

[bluebell]

Clearly some members learned nothing from studying the book of Job last week. 🤦‍♀️

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Your statement - "I really doubt 10% is going to actually make such a difference financially as you have described."

How is that not saying he's being dishonest?

For 30 years!?  Misery for 30 years because he paid tithing?  How do we uncritically accept this?

[Raingirl]

2 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I do think that a guy writing an open letter to God claiming that tithing was the reason his family was eating rice (and *gasp* maybe not even that!) deserves at least an eye roll and is wholly undeserving of serious consideration.  
 

I mean, you believe that without question and reject the first vision?  That’s informative.

I believe it. Paying tithing meant I had to put necessities on a credit card. Of course, I couldn’t pay the card off monthly. Which put me further and further into debt. So, yes, losing 10% of one’s income (actually, it’s more than that, since we’re expected to to tithe on the gross, which is money we never got) can make a huge difference in being able to make ends meet. And judging and lecturing people for somehow being lesser than you or not good enough is truly awful behavior. 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, Raingirl said:

I believe it. Paying tithing meant I had to put necessities on a credit card. Of course, I couldn’t pay the card off monthly. Which put me further and further into debt. So, yes, losing 10% of one’s income (actually, it’s more than that, since we’re expected to to tithe on the gross, which is money we never got) can make a huge difference in being able to make ends meet. And judging and lecturing people for somehow being lesser than you or not good enough is truly awful behavior. 

We’re expected to tithe on gross?

Where did I lecture him for being “less than me”?

He wrote the letter.  I read the letter.  I can have an opinion on it.  It’s why it’s “open” 

Edited August 12, 2022 by SteveO

[Raingirl]

Just now, SteveO said:

We’re expected to tithe on gross?

You’re a member and nobody’s told you that? Just have a look at previous tithing threads here. Yes, people argue both sides, but the teaching that we’re expected to tithe on gross is definitely commonly taught in the church. 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, Raingirl said:

You’re a member and nobody’s told you that? Just have a look at previous tithing threads here. Yes, people argue both sides, but the teaching that we’re expected to tithe on gross is definitely commonly taught in the church. 

I’ll need a CFR on that.  Prophet, apostle or standard works.  It is not asked in tithing declaration, not in temple recommend interview.  That’s between you and the Lord.  

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Your statement - "I really doubt 10% is going to actually make such a difference financially as you have described."

How is that not saying he's being dishonest?

Just expressing an opinion since he could have easily gotten help from his bishop, unless he left that part of the information out of his post.

[Raingirl]

2 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I’ll need a CFR on that.  Prophet, apostle or standard works.  It is not asked in tithing declaration, not in temple recommend interview.  That’s between you and the Lord.  

You can’t CFR someone’s personal experience.  I never claimed it was written anywhere. That’s something you made up in you own little brain. And I can’t help it if you’re too lazy sitting up there on your holier-than-thou perch, to read tithing threads where others have shared their experiences regarding paying gross vs net.  Yes, the church has the written disclaimer that it’s between a member and God, but that in no way precludes being told something else. 

[SteveO]

4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Yes, the church has the written disclaimer that it’s between a member and God

Ok thanks.  If you were struggling financially, this would be the first bit of counsel I’d give.  
 

7 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

but that in no way precludes being told something else.

Yes it does.

Probably refer you to Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University next.  Buy you the book, etc.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I’ll need a CFR on that.  Prophet, apostle or standard works.  It is not asked in tithing declaration, not in temple recommend interview.  That’s between you and the Lord.  

It has been taught but it is not supposed to be.  It's supposed to be left to the person to decide what a full tithe is.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Each year the bishop has to go through a list on the computer of every member is his ward and select their declared tithing status, full, part, non, etc. If a member doesn't physically declare they are a full tithe payer, the bishop can't honestly mark down full tithe payer as their declaration.

Yep, and I can personally vouch for how many hundreds of hours spread across endless nights/weekends bishops spend on the telephone or making in-home visits trying to obtain this information because some members don't think it's important to spend ten minutes in the bishop's office to engage in the formal process. 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

It has been taught but it is not supposed to be.  It's supposed to be left to the person to decide what a full tithe is.  

Ok, but is that a church culture thing, or the principle of tithing?

I figured you were referring to me in your previous post.

Are we not allowed to question possible reasons for why bad things happen?  In Raingirl’s instance, a misunderstanding of the principle that was wrongfully perpetuated?

Is no one at fault for why bad things happen to them?  Just an act of God, and nothing more?

Why do we have to sympathize without question someone who claims tithing destroyed his life for 30 years?  

Sound financial advice advocates 10-15% set aside for emergency and retirement.  You could say, after 30 years, you don’t have those luxuries because of tithing.  But to say, “I paid 10% of my income to the church, and it made me miserable, and my family suffered financially for 30 years because of it”?  Not a penny, after 30 years of tithing payment, from the church financial aid?  Nothing?  No help? Zilch? It doesn’t make sense.  And I’m not wrong for questioning it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, SteveO said:

If you were struggling financially, this would be the first bit of counsel I’d give.

Based on actual experience as a bishopric member, my first bit of counsel to a member who wants to be a faithful tithe payer but is struggling financially is to keep paying tithing and let the ward take care of the rest by means of fast offerings.

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

37 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I’ll need a CFR on that.  Prophet, apostle or standard works.  It is not asked in tithing declaration, not in temple recommend interview.  That’s between you and the Lord.  

It has been taught but it is not supposed to be.  It's supposed to be left to the person to decide what a full tithe is.  

This is a pretty old quote but I have note seen anything more recent:
A 1970 letter from the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that, notwithstanding the fact that members should pay one-tenth of their income, "every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly" (Mar. 19, 1970)
Nothing official and specific about gross or net or what the definition of income really is. 

[SteveO]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Based on actual experience as a bishopric member, my first bit of counsel to a member who wants to be a faithful tithe payer but is struggling financially is to keep paying tithing and let the ward take care of the rest by means of fast offerings.

I stand corrected.  Now, based on your experience, would a full tithe payer ever be denied financial help if it was asked?  
 

I refuse to believe a ward and bishop would allow a full tithe paying family to eat nothing but rice.

[Chum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If I learned anything from Job last week, it's that things go downhill fast when friends try to "explain" why God did something to a different friend, so I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole...

That's reasonable.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

But I will say that I had a similar (not tithing related) thing happen to me where the opposite of what I had been taught would happen, happened, and it wrecked me for a while--I was angry--and it caused some trauma with my relationship with God.

I get that. I may have even experienced something similar. Not equating there, just saying that 30 years leaves room for lots of experiences. That said, I'm not sure our experiences are similar. For starters, it sounds like what you went thru was genuinely awful. Here, I'm just sharing the post event analysis.

Alright, so the hunger-level poverty part was awful but as far as the tithing part goes - I said in my post I'm not angry, just confused. Maybe I undersold that. I didn't mean to. I'm certainly not blaming God for the events because I don't believe He's responsible. Crap happens and I happened to land at the far end of the statistical curve. Someone had to.

Regardless, I wholly mean the part about positive reinforcement. I'm a guy. I need my life lessons delivered in small words and diagrams. If Heavenly Father wants me to notice something, I'm probably going to need a bright laser pointing right at it.

[Durangout]

42 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I don't know that it's more "important" than other commandments, but I do think that (as a metric) tithing is a pretty good key performance indicator for unit health. 

Annually tracking the number of members who are willing to 'put their money where their mouth is' in a given area seems like useful information for church leaders to have. 

 

Yes; that would be one metric and a way to use the information.
 

Do know however that that was not what it’s purpose was.  It was for an agrarian people so that they could pay tithing after the harvest, bills are paid….  In the past, it might also have been used to determine if chapels would be built for a given unit.  I may be wrong in that one.  Not 100% sure.

On the other hand, there might be better metrics:  Times per month temple attendance, WoW adherence (1/4 of the active women in our ward drink “green” tea and say they obey), wear the temple garment according instruction (large numbers of women think it’s a part time thing, % fulfilling callings, sabbath day observance (not boating, eating out, at the cabin).

I wonder which is a better barometer: writing a check or doing some of these other things?  I realize it’s not an “either, or” proposition just not convienes tithing is the metric we should be using.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

Now, based on your experience, would a full tithe payer ever be denied financial help if it was asked?  

I have never personally seen that happen, but I'm aware that the intended smooth operation of the Church is subject to multiple potential local failures.

Again from my experience, people in this situation aren't likely to 'ask' for help; it has to be offered. For example, I was interviewing a brother for a temple recommend one Sunday, and when we came to tithing, he mentioned that his wife's recent job loss had put them in the position where they could tithe or pay their home loan but not both. My counsel was to keep tithing and let us help with the loan. He seemed shaken by this and even argued against it, but I assured him this was the best approach.

In the end, I had to get the bishop himself to come in and verify what I was saying. We then paid the mortgage for the family until their financial situation improved.