Tithing Settlement is now Tithing Declaration

[SteveO]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

It should be if you are going to assume the worse.

And what was that?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, SteveO said:

And what was that?

You are a good guy, SteveO.  I think if you stepped back and try to come at it again putting yourself in Chum’s place, remembering that it can be hard to put into words what we are struggling to understand (not to criticize, but understand), asking yourself ‘what is he trying to say’ rather than ‘what am I thinking about what he said’, maybe you will be able to see it for yourself because it seems at this point you aren’t going to get it from others’ words.

[SteveO]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a good guy, SteveO.  I think if you stepped back and try to come at it again putting yourself in Chum’s place, remembering that it can be hard to put into words what we are struggling to understand (not to criticize, but understand), asking yourself ‘what is he trying to say’ rather than ‘what am I thinking about what he said’, maybe you will be able to see it for yourself because it seems at this point you aren’t going to get it from others’ words.

I read the letter.  I finished reading the letter.  My only “assumption” was, “this guy believes tithing is the sole cause of his 30 year hardship.”  How could I not assume that when he himself says that life got better within the minute he decided not to pay anymore?

If tithing IS the sole reason, I don’t believe it.  He said it himself later on there’s more issues and parts to the story.  At that point, I logged off and declared victory.  Case closed. 

If tithing IS NOT the sole reason, and everyone including Chum accepts that, I don’t even know what we talking about.

I’m baffled why this is even a point of argument.

Edited August 12, 2022 by SteveO

[Chum]

36 minutes ago, SteveO said:

“I finally stopped paying tithing and about that same minute our lives finally turned around. Dramatically.”

“I am baffled why the blessings we enjoyed from tithing were so indistinguishable from Hell.”

”I genuinely don't know how to math our particular 30 years into something other than tithing destroys lives.”

What am I supposed to take away here?

I guess awful stuff when it's presented out of context. I can suggest, yet again, that you include where I'm clearly saying:

I know I'm an outlier

This is my personal analysis

Please help me understand

40 minutes ago, SteveO said:

How do we have members upvote this, and then turn around and try and teach the law of tithing to new converts, or even fellow members?

Members should file me away as an outlier, preferably with the knowledge that outliers exist even if we don't know how to help them.

And - I wouldn't haphazardly introduce this (or other outlying experiences) in a room where people are just finding their way. I'd share it where long-established members could consider it and perhaps shed a different light on my terrible conclusion.

[Durangout]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is still the case.

Half of what you proposed as alternatives only pertain to people who have been endowed and/or live near a temple. Measuring temple attendance amongst Indonesian Saints, to take just one example, will tell you nothing about their faithfulness. And everything else you suggested is either more difficult to measure or more open to interpretation or more culturally bound (not being in a cabin on a Sunday???).

So are you saying that tithing is the best metric to judge the faithfulness of our people?

btw, tithing is very difficult to measure and very subjective.  10% of WHAT?  As you can see from this thread there are many interpretations of what tithing is. I submit that there is only a small percent of members who actually pay what they r supposed to. This is why I say it’s not a very good metric to use.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Durangout

[Chum]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a good guy, SteveO.

I think he's arguing from a place of good faith now.

[Chum]

18 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I read the letter.  I finished reading the letter.  My only “assumption” was, “this guy believes tithing is the sole cause of his 30 year hardship.”  How could I not assume that when he himself says that life got better within the minute he decided not to pay anymore?

I ran an analysis*, got a conclusion and that conclusion doesn't jibe with consensus. Well, frak. Now what? Well, I know a board loaded with people who are a lot more gospel savvy than me. Maybe they can help me find some flaws in my reasoning.

* disclaimer: no beliefs were harmed during the analysis of this experience

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Chum said:

I guess awful stuff when it's presented out of context. I can suggest, yet again, that you include where I'm clearly saying:

I know I'm an outlier

This is my personal analysis

Please help me understand

Members should file me away as an outlier, preferably with the knowledge that outliers exist even if we don't know how to help them.

And - I wouldn't haphazardly introduce this (or other outlying experiences) in a room where people are just finding their way. I'd share it where long-established members could consider it and perhaps shed a different light on my terrible conclusion.

I understand how easily a few dollars can mean the difference between keeping a place to live to living on the streets. The church could have stepped in for sure, but first they'll expect you to go to the family, government or ? first. Or there is a gamble on the bishop helping or not. So I'm thinking when you say 30 years it's because of living on the edge with the scenario mentioned. I wish the church would realize that it's got enough that they can go back to the original meaning of tithing in the D&C. 

 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their ^asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I understand how easily a few dollars can mean the difference between keeping a place to live to living on the streets. The church could have stepped in for sure, but first they'll expect you to go to the family, government or ? first. Or there is a gamble on the bishop helping or not. So I'm thinking when you say 30 years it's because of living on the edge with the scenario mentioned. I wish the church would realize that it's got enough that they can go back to the original meaning of tithing in the D&C. 

 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their ^asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

We've got a couple of extra bicycles in the garage no one is riding.  I guess I'll be dropping them off at the bishop's house later tonight. 🙂

[Chum]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I understand how easily a few dollars can mean the difference between keeping a place to live to living on the streets. The church could have stepped in for sure

They did (readily), as far as was prudent. They couldn't sustain us for a decade tho.

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church could have stepped in for sure, but first they'll expect you to go to the family, government or ? first.

We did but there's only so much family can do. As for gov, we're in a state that's hostile toward helping people in need.

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So I'm thinking when you say 30 years it's because of living on the edge with the scenario mentioned. I wish the church would realize that it's got enough that they can go back to the original meaning of tithing in the D&C.

The first twenty had it's highs but they kept getting followed by lower lows. The last 10 was the hole of holes. 

Regarding Church funding, I haven't considered it enough to have an opinion on whether the Church should expend more for whatever-class-I-was-in.

They're trying different things with the self-employment/employment/etc trainings. I went thru 2 of those courses because it seemed responsible and I wanted to support the Church's efforts. I might have gotten a bit of focus from them. I think those courses are a good fit for people who've never been SE or haven't done much job hunting.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Chum

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

We've got a couple of extra bicycles in the garage no one is riding.  I guess I'll be dropping them off at the bishop's house later tonight. 🙂

Surplus back then to today's meaning, money coming in to pay the bills. 

sur·plus

/ˈsərpləs/

 

noun

 

1. an amount of something left over when requirements have been met; an excess of production or supply over demand.

   "exports of food surpluses"

Edited August 12, 2022 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Surplus back then to today's meaning, money coming in to pay the bills. 

So today's meaning of the original meaning is what you mean. 🙂 (again)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

How could I not assume that when he himself says that life got better within the minute he decided not to pay anymore?

Because reasonable adults don’t generally think there is one simple cause of complex situations even when it may superficially look that way.  And if you assume Chum is being reasonable rather than assume he is being critical, it shifts the focus. 

For me it is clear in the letter that Chum recognizes it isn’t as it appears to be.  He is not saying “not paying tithing made life better”, he is asking “why does it look like not paying tithing made my life and my family’s life better?”  And that question only makes sense if one assumes the appearance is not the actual truth. 
 

I could ask essentially the same question about a different gospel principle. Every time I have (physically) served others in any significant way in the past 15 years and a good portion of the 25 years before that, I personally ended up worse off than I was to start.  My apparent blessing for serving was illness, pain, depression, and most important to me, an inability to fulfill the needs of my own family and myself.  When I chose to be selfish and put my own needs first and ignore the needs of others even when I could help in small ways, I was healthier and therefore happier. This is not the result of service and avoiding service we are taught we will receive in church.  If I choose to use the paradigm I hear most often at church, I could get talked out of the gospel. Instead I have chosen to look at it a different way that allows it to make some sense to me, but for the most part I am taking the interaction of the gospel and my life on faith at this point because even if some principles seem pretty screwed up for me, others work very well and overall there is a sense of rightness to it for me. 

The way I read Chum’s letter is he is looking for a new paradigm to be able to hold on to the value of tithing and by extension the gospel in general (harder to see the gospel as Truth if what is taught as an important pillar of it is missing) rather than trying to ditch it, just as I have had to find a way to deal with the apparent contradictions of my life with what I have been taught about the gospel.  I am actually still working on it and am thinking I will be till I die and can ask for input from the source (that scripture where Nephi informs us the Lord always prepares a way for us to fulfill his commandments is a kicker for me, how can I fulfill most of the commandments when I can’t even stand upright?).  Maybe having such obvious contradictions is unusual, but if that is true (and I have my doubts given how so many describe their lives) it doesn’t make the exceptions just disappear. We still have to deal with them.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Calm

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Surplus back then to today's meaning, money coming in to pay the bills. 

sur·plus

/ˈsərpləs/

 

noun

 

1. an amount of something left over when requirements have been met; an excess of production or supply over demand.

   "exports of food surpluses"

https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing

Current LDS leaders say interest is typically interpreted as "income." But that's not what it has always meant.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time.

"Though the Saints' original understanding of tithing need not (and, in fact, does not) control how tithing functions today, it is fascinating to see the radically different understanding our religious forebears had of tithing," wrote Sam Brunson, associate professor of law at Loyola University Chicago, in an online blog post.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So today's meaning of the original meaning is what you mean. 🙂 (again)

In this article it mentions "imputed income".

https://juvenileinstructor.org/understanding-interest-in-joseph-smiths-original-tithing-revelation/

ETA: But I'll skip down to the scripture below and use what I should have in the beginning, I take it that interest could be what is left after paying the bills, like what Chum could have used to enable them to get by much better, I'm thinking. So "increase"?

4 And after that, those who have thus been ^atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Tacenda

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

I ran an analysis*, got a conclusion and that conclusion doesn't jibe with consensus. Well, frak. Now what? Well, I know a board loaded with people who are a lot more gospel savvy than me. Maybe they can help me find some flaws in my reasoning.

* disclaimer: no beliefs were harmed during the analysis of this experience

I feel there’s a nail in your forehead, and I’m trying to pull it out.  And you’re telling me the nail isn’t the issue.

Ive been approaching this very practically…because I never believed it was a “spiritual” matter.

You mentioned your wife spent the rent money once.  Maybe more than once?  That alone, tells me there was/is a very serious problem that tithing had nothing to do with. That isn’t just a “my wife likes to shop” problem, that’s something that hurts your family.  

I look at that, and I think, “well, there’s the issue”.  I can see how tithing being added doesn’t help in that situation.  But tithing alone isn’t your main, glaring problem.

You could ask, “well, still, I’m a faithful tithe payer, and I expected some help with my wife’s spending.”  You mentioned mental illness.  Maybe you’re asking why there wasn’t relief in that area as part of the blessings of tithing.  That…I dunno.  
 

I’ll share my personal experience with tithing, to shift it from the practical to the spiritual:

Everything I am, everything good, including my wife, son, and temple marriage, is because of tithing.  I was a dope in the army, did some stupid things, and was inactive.  I never felt comfortable stopping tithing payments, even though it made sense, even though there was no practical point in doing so.  It was the last thread that kept me to the church.  I knew if I cut it, that was it.  Maybe eventually there would be a way back, but not until after I had passed through some dark years.

So I kept paying.  Even when I was getting married, having just gotten laid off from the oil fields, no prospects for employment.  I paid tithing on the enlistment bonus that finally came thru, and back paid all the tithing I wasn’t able to pay at the time, and kept a running tab, that I promised to eventually pay off as soon as when I would be able.

Malachi promises those who pay tithing won’t be burnt.  I’ve never taken that to be literal.  He’s talking about the last days, and the heat of its adversity burning testimonies.  Leaving nothing left.  Tithing, saved my testimony.  I am bewildered at why I continue to believe when every logical impulse tells me not to.  Every criticism of the church rolls off me.  (I guess I get a little intense at times in its defense, but it’s because I love it so much).  And trust me, paying tithing never gets easy.  I’m on my last $6k of student loans.  Not paying tithing would’ve paid that off years and years ago.

Anyways, that’s it

[Chum]

10 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Anyways, that’s it

Yeah, I think we've reached the "I don't know how to help you" part of the thread. I did adore endlessly talking about myself, however.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

They did (readily), as far as was prudent. They couldn't sustain us for a decade tho.

We did but there's only so much family can do. As for gov, we're in a state that's hostile toward helping people in need.

The first twenty had it's highs but they kept getting followed by lower lows. The last 10 was the hole of holes. 

Regarding Church funding, I haven't considered it enough to have an opinion on whether the Church should expend more for whatever-class-I-was-in.

They're trying different things with the self-employment/employment/etc trainings. I went thru 2 of those courses because it seemed responsible and I wanted to support the Church's efforts. I might have gotten a bit of focus from them. I think those courses are a good fit for people who've never been SE or haven't done much job hunting.

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Because reasonable adults don’t generally think there is one simple cause of complex situations even when it may superficially look that way.  And if you assume Chum is being reasonable rather than assume he is being critical, it shifts the focus. 

For me it is clear in the letter that Chum recognizes it isn’t as it appears to be.  He is not saying “not paying tithing made life better”, he is asking “why does it look like not paying tithing made my life and my family’s life better?”  And that question only makes sense if one assumes the appearance is not the actual truth. 
 

I could ask essentially the same question about a different gospel principle. Every time I have (physically) served others in any significant way in the past 15 years and a good portion of the 25 years before that, I personally ended up worse off than I was to start.  My apparent blessing for serving was illness, pain, depression, and most important to me, an inability to fulfill the needs of my own family and myself.  When I chose to be selfish and put my own needs first and ignore the needs of others even when I could help in small ways, I was healthier and therefore happier. This is not the result of service and avoiding service we are taught we will receive in church.  If I choose to use the paradigm I hear most often at church, I could get talked out of the gospel. Instead I have chosen to look at it a different way that allows it to make some sense to me, but for the most part I am taking the interaction of the gospel and my life on faith at this point because even if some principles seem pretty screwed up for me, others work very well and overall there is a sense of rightness to it for me. 

The way I read Chum’s letter is he is looking for a new paradigm to be able to hold on to the value of tithing and by extension the gospel in general (harder to see the gospel as Truth if what is taught as an important pillar of it is missing) rather than trying to ditch it, just as I have had to find a way to deal with the apparent contradictions of my life with what I have been taught about the gospel.  I am actually still working on it and am thinking I will be till I die and can ask for input from the source (that scripture where Nephi informs us the Lord always prepares a way for us to fulfill his commandments is a kicker for me, how can I fulfill most of the commandments when I can’t even stand upright?).  Maybe having such obvious contradictions is unusual, but if that is true (and I have my doubts given how so many describe their lives) it doesn’t make the exceptions just disappear. We still have to deal with them.

 

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing

Current LDS leaders say interest is typically interpreted as "income." But that's not what it has always meant.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

I wonder how that works in investment losing years.  

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time.

"Though the Saints' original understanding of tithing need not (and, in fact, does not) control how tithing functions today, it is fascinating to see the radically different understanding our religious forebears had of tithing," wrote Sam Brunson, associate professor of law at Loyola University Chicago, in an online blog post.

 

[SteveO]

13 minutes ago, Chum said:

Yeah, I think we've reached the "I don't know how to help you" part of the thread. I did adore endlessly talking about myself, however.

I feel we made progress.  Good work everyone.  Anytime you want that nail pulled…you now know who to come to.  

[randy]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:38 PM, Teancum said:

Or more are understanding the Church is simply not what it claims to be and are thus not willing to devote their time and resources to such an organization.  That is at least my conclusion.  And the church is now missing out on thousands of hours of my time and tens of thousands of my tithing. And I am not alone.

....annnnd the Church will continue to keep plodding along and will continue to do just fine.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I feel we made progress.  Good work everyone.  Anytime you want that nail pulled…you now know who to come to.  

God is the only one who can remove it for him and it often won't be in the time we on earth would like it.  His story really isn't about the nail.  It's about finding medical personnel to deal with the pain of the nail and friends to sit by his bed till God finds it is time to remove it.  

[SteveO]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

God is the only one who can remove it for him and it often won't be in the time we on earth would like it.  His story really isn't about the nail.  It's about finding medical personnel to deal with the pain of the nail and friends to sit by his bed till God finds it is time to remove it.  

 

Its crystal clear

[Chum]

30 minutes ago, Rain said:

God is the only one who can remove it for him and it often won't be in the time we on earth would like it.  His story really isn't about the nail.  It's about finding medical personnel to deal with the pain of the nail and friends to sit by his bed till God finds it is time to remove it.  

He's crafted a picture of my head with a nail in it and is asking if I want it removed. I dunno. It's his picture. Far be it from me to interfere with someone else's voodoo ritual.

[SteveO]

12 minutes ago, Chum said:

He's crafted a picture of my head with a nail in it and is asking if I want it removed. I dunno. It's his picture. Far be it from me to interfere with someone else's voodoo ritual.

https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg

 

Thought it was common knowledge 

Edited August 12, 2022 by SteveO

[Chum]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg

Thought it was common knowledge 

You are becoming obnoxious. Would you kindly aim your compulsions elsewhere?