Apostacy?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Are you the human who typed the words that the avatar Ahab posted?

ETA:

Maybe I should post the question like this: Is the human typing the words for Obehave the same human who typed the words for Ahab?

And of course it takes a Pollock...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311966065_LIAR_PARADOX_SOLUTION#:~:text=Liar paradox " is that we,so they are not liars.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

It is not true, it may be your belief but that does not make it true.

Agreed.  It's just kind of a useless thing to say.

None of our beliefs are true just because we believe them, but if we responded with "not true" everytime someone said something we disagreed with, there would be no point in responding at all.  

Your response applies as equally to you as it does to me.

Edited June 29, 2022 by bluebell

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Obehave said:

Why are we talking about Ahab in a thread about Apostasy?  

Because too many of us are experiencing déjà vu.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

What's happening? Ahab? What did Deja do? Where am I? Maybe I'm getting Jamais Vu...

Edited June 30, 2022 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

What's happening? Ahab? What did Deja do? Where am I? Maybe I'm getting Jamais Vu...

My daughter had a dog named Vous in French.

It's the polite version of the word "you".

One must always be polite in calling your dog.

Edited June 30, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

Orthodox Christian has to comeback and clarify his unrealistic demands of what he expects of us in a way we can specifically reply to. Israel has always been a small player on the world stage. Early Christians had little confidence they would survive the next generation and I would say they didn't. The true path is narrow, few will be they who find it. We've been told the believers would be out numbered, up against the entire world run by spiritual darkness in high places.

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

We've been told the believers would be out numbered, up against the entire world run by spiritual darkness in high places.

Yes but different branches have different opinions on who's on the path and who isn't.  Much of Christianity widely teaches fairly damning stuff about my Church to their adherents.

I should point out that Catholicism (and largely no one else) has generally been gracious toward us. I have personal experience to that effect.

[3DOP]

Apostasy.

[Orthodox Christian]

21 hours ago, Fether said:

As for calling this whole restoration a squib. I don’t have the numbers, but I would bet that Christ’s true gospel and priesthood has spread faster and further across the globe in the 200 years since the restoration that it did the first 200 years following the Christ’s original establishment.

To compare the growth of the LDS church to that of the original doesn't really work does it? Population was much smaller then, but travel was labourious and dangerous, there were no technological aids, missionary work was extremely dangerous and persecutions rife, but still the Church grew. In view of air travel techno aids such as the internet, smart devices, increased material wealth that enables thousands of missionaries to get to almost anywhere, I would suggest that despite these many modern advantages, the growth has been relatively slow. And now in our secular , rationalist and anti religion times, where people declare that they have no need of religion, I imagine that things will become more difficult.

[Orthodox Christian]

4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Apostasy.

Oops, sorry.

[CA Steve]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Because too many of us are experiencing déjà vu.

In Ahab's case I'd call it deja poo because it like reading the same crap you've read before.

😮

[Saint Bonaventure]

Apostasy can be a sensitive topic, and, of course, discussing what my LDS friends and family call the "Great Apostasy" can be especially sensitive in an interfaith/interreligious context. I believe that this is due to the fact that there is so much at stake--authority and exclusive claims--and also because most every assertion comes with both a desire for affirmation and implied criticism of others.

I'm not surprised that LDS folks have a firm conviction that something went catastrophically awry--that there was a Great Apostasy--between the New Testament Church and around the year 500 A.D.

They're probably not shocked that a Catholic believes that the deposit of faith is secure, that continuity is uninterrupted, and that apostolic authority is alive and well.

I've found that discussing particular facts is more useful than merely trading nouns and generalities, and even as historical facts are presented within an interpretive framework. 

Anyway, I'm glad to have this conversation so long as we're trying to understand at least as much as we're trying to be understood.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Saint Bonaventure

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

To compare the growth of the LDS church to that of the original doesn't really work does it? Population was much smaller then, but travel was labourious and dangerous, there were no technological aids, missionary work was extremely dangerous and persecutions rife, but still the Church grew. In view of air travel techno aids such as the internet, smart devices, increased material wealth that enables thousands of missionaries to get to almost anywhere, I would suggest that despite these many modern advantages, the growth has been relatively slow. And now in our secular , rationalist and anti religion times, where people declare that they have no need of religion, I imagine that things will become more difficult.

You listed off all the reasons why the restoration happened when it did. When the whole world was opened up and a society existed that permitted the freedom of religion. When there was simple forms of transportation to take the gospel to the entire world.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

In Ahab's case I'd call it deja poo because it like reading the same crap you've read before.

😮

I shouldn’t give you a point but I am going to anyway for having the cheek (as my Aussie mother-in-law would say) for posting it, lol.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Apostasy can be a sensitive topic, and, of course, discussing what my LDS friends and family call the "Great Apostasy" can be especially sensitive in an interfaith/interreligious context. I believe that this is due to the fact that there is so much at stake--authority and exclusive claims--and also because most every assertion comes with both a desire for affirmation and implied criticism of others.

I'm not surprised that LDS folks have a firm conviction that something went catastrophically awry--that there was a Great Apostasy--between the New Testament Church and around the year 500 A.D.

They're probably not shocked that a Catholic believes that the deposit of faith is secure, that continuity is uninterrupted, and that apostolic authority is alive and well.

I've found that discussing particular facts is more useful than merely trading nouns and generalities, and even as historical facts are presented within an interpretive framework. 

Anyway, I'm glad to have this conversation so long as we're trying to understand at least as much as we're trying to be understood.

And I just used up my last point for a poop joke.  I should have known better. (Added:  didn’t have to wait as long as I thought to give you one though)

Well stated.   

Edited June 30, 2022 by Calm

[ksfisher]

9 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

In view of air travel techno aids such as the internet, smart devices, increased material wealth that enables thousands of missionaries to get to almost anywhere, I would suggest that despite these many modern advantages, the growth has been relatively slow.

I think these things can be viewed as neutral at best.  The internet and smart devices have helped spread the gospel, but also led the the enslavement of millions by pornography.  Material wealth enables missionaries to travel the world, but there's also that thing about the camel and the eye of the needle. 

So perhaps, in spite of these modern disadvantages, the church has continued to grow.

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

And I just used up my last point for a poop joke.  I should have known better. (Added:  didn’t have to wait as long as I thought to give you one though)

Well stated.   

Since you used up your last one on me I payed it forward by giving a point to Saint Bonaventure for you. 😀

[mrmarklin]

9 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Apostasy can be a sensitive topic, and, of course, discussing what my LDS friends and family call the "Great Apostasy" can be especially sensitive in an interfaith/interreligious context. I believe that this is due to the fact that there is so much at stake--authority and exclusive claims--and also because most every assertion comes with both a desire for affirmation and implied criticism of others.

I'm not surprised that LDS folks have a firm conviction that something went catastrophically awry--that there was a Great Apostasy--between the New Testament Church and around the year 500 A.D.

They're probably not shocked that a Catholic believes that the deposit of faith is secure, that continuity is uninterrupted, and that apostolic authority is alive and well.

I've found that discussing particular facts is more useful than merely trading nouns and generalities, and even as historical facts are presented within an interpretive framework. 

Anyway, I'm glad to have this conversation so long as we're trying to understand at least as much as we're trying to be understood.

No question Apostasy is a matter of faith.

Good Catholics believe that Peter passed on the Keys to his authority to the first Roman "pope".  The succession follows from there.  There is actually some old documents that seem to verify this.  The conferences over the centuries, discussing doctrines and modifications thereof, were guided by the Holy Spirit on the greatest minds in Christendom.  Jerome compiled the New Testament ca.400 AD.  Who else could do this but the Universal Church?  Don't all Christians believe this book?  Later problems in the 1500s led to a "Reformation" in the Church, symbolized by St Peter's Cathedral.  Luther and the other apostates were the "Apostasy".  And now the Church is as strong as ever, with a presence in almost every nation and a billion strong.  All this ignores the success of the other major Christians such as the Greek, Russian Orthodox, Armenians Coptics etc.

Of course LDS, in the light of modern revelation, understand that authority could not be passed along in the way alleged by the Catholic church, many substantial Biblical doctrines have been changed, and customs such as celibacy lent, Sainthood, etc have been introduced that were never a part of Christ's church.  We won't even mention some of the corruption and the years when there were two popes in the middle ages.

Hence Apostasy.  And the need for  restoration of plain an simple truths.😃

Edited June 30, 2022 by mrmarklin

[MiserereNobis]

8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Good Catholics believe that Peter passed on the Keys to his authority to the first Roman "pope".  The succession follows from there

Just to add some nuance, Apostolic succession doesn't just come from St. Peter to St. Linus, the first pope. All of the apostles consecrated bishops, who then consecrated other bishops. Apostolic succession refers to the idea that the bishops are the successors to the apostles.

 

3 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

All this ignores the success of the other major Christians such as the Greek, Russian Orthodox, Armenians Coptics etc.

The Eastern Churches are not ignored in the Catholic point-of-view at all. Until the Great Schism, we were all one church. We pray for the day that we can all be one church again. Pope John Paul II called the eastern and western churches the two lungs of Christianity. Catholicism and Orthodoxy both accept the other's holy orders (priesthood) as valid. Schism is not apostasy.

13 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

customs such as celibacy

Again, just to add some nuance, celibacy is not doctrine. It is a tradition in the Latin Church. In the eastern Churches, priest can be married. This is true in the eastern Catholic Churches, too, so when someone says Catholic priests have to be celibate, they are not quote accurate. Eastern Catholic priests, who are Catholic, do not have to be celibate.

16 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

We won't even mention some of the corruption and the years when there were two popes in the middle ages.

Nice example of paralipsis -- bringing up something by saying you won't. You get an A in my rhetoric class!  

There has never been more than 1 pope. Yes, there have certainly been times when more than one person claims to be pope, but even in those situations there is only one pope and the others are antipopes. I imagine a similar situation would be like after the murder of Joseph Smith, when multiple people claimed to be his successor, but there was only one true successor.

There's even an antipope living in Kansas today: Pope Michael. Here's his website: https://www.vaticaninexile.com

[Calm]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Since you used up your last one on me I payed it forward by giving a point to Saint Bonaventure for you. 😀

I appreciate that and he deserved it anyway in my view, but it was only a short time later I got more available rep points…usually there is a half a day gap as I use my points up pretty fast, so it was unexpectedly soon.

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Just to add some nuance, Apostolic succession doesn't just come from St. Peter to St. Linus, the first pope. All of the apostles consecrated bishops, who then consecrated other bishops. Apostolic succession refers to the idea that the bishops are the successors to the apostles.

 

The Eastern Churches are not ignored in the Catholic point-of-view at all. Until the Great Schism, we were all one church. We pray for the day that we can all be one church again. Pope John Paul II called the eastern and western churches the two lungs of Christianity. Catholicism and Orthodoxy both accept the other's holy orders (priesthood) as valid. Schism is not apostasy.

Again, just to add some nuance, celibacy is not doctrine. It is a tradition in the Latin Church. In the eastern Churches, priest can be married. This is true in the eastern Catholic Churches, too, so when someone says Catholic priests have to be celibate, they are not quote accurate. Eastern Catholic priests, who are Catholic, do not have to be celibate.

Nice example of paralipsis -- bringing up something by saying you won't. You get an A in my rhetoric class!  

There has never been more than 1 pope. Yes, there have certainly been times when more than one person claims to be pope, but even in those situations there is only one pope and the others are antipopes. I imagine a similar situation would be like after the murder of Joseph Smith, when multiple people claimed to be his successor, but there was only one true successor.

There's even an antipope living in Kansas today: Pope Michael. Here's his website: https://www.vaticaninexile.com

Jesse, hey.

My wife is pretty sure she saw Pope Michael at the Topeka Wal-Mart on Wannamaker (not in papal regalia, but as a priest in cassock)! But shoot...confusing times...I don't have strong convictions as to who is pope...I believe whatever the Church teaches now or shall teach after I am gone. I don't think She has spoken definitiveIy to us yet. Benedict? Cardinal Siri? I think it is okay to not be sure. In fact, I am happy to say I do not know how anyone can know. That said,  I have great doubts that we use the same grocery store as the true pope. I am much more inclined to think that the name of the pope is Francis. That is the way I lean. That is the way I pray. But whether he be pope or anti-pope, may Michael save his soul in these our own and privileged times, and may we all. 

-------------

As to celibacy, St. Peter, bishop of Rome, the Rock on whom the Church was built, and who holds the keys of the kingdom of heaven, HAD a MOTHER-IN-LAW. Its okay, the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is and always will be compatible with the Sacrament of Holy Orders according to the Catholic faith! 

Rory

Edited July 1, 2022 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

18 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Oops, sorry.

OC...hi.

I am sorry, but not sorry. Thanks for your forbearance.

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

No question Apostasy is a matter of faith.

Good Catholics believe that Peter passed on the Keys to his authority to the first Roman "pope".  The succession follows from there.  There is actually some old documents that seem to verify this.  The conferences over the centuries, discussing doctrines and modifications thereof, were guided by the Holy Spirit on the greatest minds in Christendom.  Jerome compiled the New Testament ca.400 AD.  Who else could do this but the Universal Church?  Don't all Christians believe this book?  Later problems in the 1500s led to a "Reformation" in the Church, symbolized by St Peter's Cathedral.  Luther and the other apostates were the "Apostasy".  And now the Church is as strong as ever, with a presence in almost every nation and a billion strong.  All this ignores the success of the other major Christians such as the Greek, Russian Orthodox, Armenians Coptics etc.

Of course LDS, in the light of modern revelation, understand that authority could not be passed along in the way alleged by the Catholic church, many substantial Biblical doctrines have been changed, and customs such as celibacy lent, Sainthood, etc have been introduced that were never a part of Christ's church.  We won't even mention some of the corruption and the years when there were two popes in the middle ages.

Hence Apostasy.  And the need for  restoration of plain an simple truths.😃

 

[InCognitus]

On 6/29/2022 at 5:00 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

I know I’m a latecomer to this thread, and a lot of good responses have already been given, including some things that I wanted to say when I first saw your opening post.  But I wanted to add a scriptural perspective to the timing of the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the “monumental” point at which it has the greatest impact on the world stage. 

The scriptural perspective I want to add comes from Daniel’s interpretation of king Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2:31-45.  I’m sure you’re familiar with it.  In those verses Daniel recounts the king’s dream, where the king saw a great statue (or image) composed of five basic material compounds, with each of them representing earthly kingdoms that would rise up in chronological order as follows (with an interpretation added):  The head of gold - Babylon, the chest and arms of silver – the Mede-Persian monarchy, the belly and thighs of brass – the Greco-Macedonian empire, the legs of iron – the Roman empire, and finally, the feet and toes mixed of iron and clay – the modern kingdoms and states of the world. 

Finally, Daniel says the king saw (in his dream) a “stone was cut out of the mountain without hands” (Dan 2:34-35, 44-45), and it “smote the image” and broke it into pieces, and it “became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth”.  I think we can both agree that this “stone” represents the Lord’s church and kingdom, and ultimately "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

Now in your post you insist that there hasn’t been an apostasy, and I think this implies that the church and kingdom set up by Jesus Christ during the age of the Roman empire would be the same kingdom that would fill the whole earth.  And you question the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because of its apparent (from your perspective) relative lack of impact in the events of the world today.  I submit to you that these verses in Daniel 2:31-45 address both of your claims and demonstrate that they are incorrect because of the timing of the events spelled out in these verses.  I also realize that you may have a different interpretation of these verses, and that’s fine.  I’m just providing a Latter-day Saint point of view.

The Apostasy Question and Claim of a Continued Church

First, let’s look at these verses as they relate to the question of the apostasy and claim of a continued church.  Look at the timing of the events depicted in Daniel 2:40-45.  These verses include a description of the fourth kingdom representing the Roman Empire, and the modern earthly kingdoms that came about after the decline and fall of the Roman Empire:

Quote

[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be as iron. As iron breaketh into pieces, and subdueth all things, so shall that break and destroy all these. [41] And whereas thou sawest the feet, and the toes, part of potter's clay, and part of iron: the kingdom shall be divided, but yet it shall take its origin from the iron, according as thou sawest the iron mixed with the miry clay. [42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. [43] And whereas thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay, they shall be mingled indeed together with the seed of man, but they shall not stick fast one to another, as iron cannot be mixed with clay. [44] But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever. [45] According as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and broke in pieces, the clay, and the iron, and the brass, and the silver, and the gold, the great God hath shewn the king what shall come to pass hereafter, and the dream is true, and the interpretation thereof is faithful.  (Daniel 2:40-45, Douay-Rheims translation)

Note the point at which the kingdom of God is set up:  It is “in the days of those kingdoms” of the feet and toes, of iron and clay.  This is also made clear in verses 33-34: 

Quote

[33] And the legs of iron, the feet part of iron and part of clay. [34] Thus thou sawest, till a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands: and it struck the statue upon the feet thereof that were of iron and of clay, and broke them in pieces.

The kingdom of God, which is the “stone” that is cut out “without hands” (it is established by God and not man), doesn’t show up on the scene until after the “kingdoms” of the feet and toes are established.  How can this possibly be the church established by Jesus at around 30-33 AD?  The Roman Empire reached its peak between 100 and 117 AD under the emperor Trajan, and it was gaining strength at the time of Christ.  The legs of iron represent the strength of that empire and its later division, and the feet and toes of iron mixed with miry clay are the nations that came about after the fall of Rome, and Rome had a profound and lasting influence on their languages, architecture, philosophy, forms of government, etc. (thus, the iron mixed with clay), and this was all long after the time of Christ.  So the timing of the arrival of the “stone” simply doesn’t fit into the era of Christ’s ministry.

But this is not all, verse 44 gives us another indication that the timing of the establishment of the kingdom of God cannot possibly be the same as that from the time of Christ.  The verse says that kingdom “shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people”.   Jesus made it clear that his mission was to the Jews and the house of Israel (see Matt 15:24, Matt 10:5-6).  But in Matthew 21:43, Jesus says to them, “Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.”   That kingdom at that time was “delivered up to another people”, and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles instead (as noted in verses like Acts 13:46).

The Question of When the Restored Church and Kingdom of God Has the Greatest Impact

You ask about the membership growth of the church and its impact upon the world, and before I continue with how I am connecting my response with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2, let me correct something you said:

On 6/29/2022 at 5:00 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide.

The total membership of the church in 2021 was 16,805,400.  Fifty years prior to 2021 would be 1971.  The membership of the church in 1971 was 3,090,953.  That’s an actual growth difference of 13,714,447 members (see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints membership history).  I’m not sure if your “50 years” is a typo, or if your memory is bad, or if your friends from 50 years ago were just exaggerating when they were bragging (I know people like that).  In any case, the membership growth in the last 50 years is nearly a 444% increase, and 5.437 times the size it was in 1971.

You also questioned what difference the restored church has made in the word stage, and ask why the events of the restoration and workings of the church have gone largely unnoticed.   This is where I think Daniel 2 can give us some more clues on how the restoration plays out.

In verses 34-35 of Daniel 2, the stone is cut out of the mountain, and it doesn’t make a big impact on the world (pun intended) until it strikes the statue upon the feet and breaks it into pieces.  At this point verse 35 says, “the stone that struck the statue, became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth”. 

Right now, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is sending the message of the restored gospel to all the world and is preparing for the second coming of the Savior.  And when the Savior comes, then will his kingdom “become a great mountain” and the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord and his kingdom.  But the stone is rolling forth right now, and it’s only a matter of time before the full impact of the church on the world will be known.

Edited July 5, 2022 by InCognitus

[Orthodox Christian]

On 6/29/2022 at 6:20 PM, bluebell said:

Yes, it is true.  That is our belief of what the great apostasy was.  You can disagree with it but you don't get to tell us what we believe.

I am not telling you what to believe, I am simply stating that it is not true. That you choose to believe otherwise is up to you.