Apostacy?

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

The apostasy isn’t about how bad things are getting. The apostasy is simply about whether God’s church and his priesthood are present on the earth. It is present so there is no apostasy. Considering the apostasy came only 20 years or so after his death and we are still going strong 200 years after the restoration, I would say it is going great.

As for calling this whole restoration a squib. I don’t have the numbers, but I would bet that Christ’s true gospel and priesthood has spread faster and further across the globe in the 200 years since the restoration that it did the first 200 years following the Christ’s original establishment. 
 

All that being said, none of this is important to whether there is a restoration or not. Again, the restoration is simply a returning if priesthood authority, which was lost when the Apostles were all killed and returned when Joseph Smith was given it.

It may have been you that I shared this with recently, but here is a talk that sheds more light on it all.

 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

If you had made the effort to familiarize yourself with the prophesies of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, you would understand that the restoration of the Church of Christ and kingdom of God on earth is still in its infancy, relatively speaking, and that the day will fully come when the restored Church of Christ will finally come out of its obscurity, and when it does every human being on earth will be well aware of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the fact that they have a to make a decision to either stand with it or be consumed by fire at the Second Coming. In other words, you haven’t seen anything yet. And the day will soon arrive when the only places of peace, safety and refuge from constant warfare and the cataclysmic judgements of an offended God on earth will be within the city of Zion (the New Jerusalem) and her stakes. When that day comes, if you’re still living in the flesh on earth, you will come to realize that you incorrectly judged the destiny of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and you and your presumptuous attitude will be humbled to the dust.

Edited June 29, 2022 by teddyaware

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

If you had made the effort to familiarize yourself with the prophesies of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, you would understand that the restoration of the Church of Christ and kingdom of God on earth is still in its infancy, relatively speaking, and that the day will fully come when the restored Church of Christ will finally come out of its obscurity, and when it does every human being on earth will be well aware of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the fact that they have a to make a decision to either stand with it or be consumed by fire at the Second Coming. In other words, you haven’t seen anything yet. And the day will soon arrive when the only places of peace, safety and refuge from constant warfare and the cataclysmic judgements of an offended God on earth will be within the city of Zion (the New Jerusalem) and her stakes. When that day comes, if you’re still living in the flesh on earth, you will come to realize that you incorrectly judged the destiny of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and you and your presumptuous attitude will be humbled to the dust.

Why are you always so arrogant and condescending? Do you do it on purpose or are you oblivious?

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had.

As Fether noted, the restored church is far outperforming the original church at the 200 year marker.  

One estimate puts Christian membership in 200 A.D at between 150,000 to 350,000.   Any estimate near 16.8 million (current membership today) would be wildly off the mark.  The church was mostly seen as an obscure tiny Jewish sect until Constantine (not the apostles or bishops) really set it on the world stage in 313 A.D.

In regards to impact on the world stage...well, it would be helpful to look at things from an eternal perspective.  What has been restored is not only impacting those alive today, but is having and will continue to have an eternal impact on every soul who has ever lived on the earth via temple ordinances.  We have opened the door and provided the way and means for the gospel ordinances to be performed for all.  Not one will slip through the cracks.   I would call that a pretty significant impact.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by pogi

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

There is so much in your assumptions in this paragraph that it would take a long time to address them all, but I don't have time to do that now.  But I'll say that as has been mentioned, the apostasy refers to a loss of priesthood authority so that there was no one on the earth any more who was authorized to speak for God and perform His ordinances.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by bluebell

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

The Lord called Joseph Smith to restore the priesthood keys, a requirement for the legitimate Church. Given that a Christian church can exist without the keys, many churches continued long after the keys were taken from the earth, on the whole legitimately desiring to do the best they could to retain the gospel and doctrine of Christ.

The difference the restored keys make is the “massive benefit to mankind” wherein temples are being built to fulfil the promises of the gathering of Israel on both sides of the veil preparatory to Christ’s Second Coming. This takes nothing away from the work of the Apostles, Bishops and other followers. The growth of the Restored Church among mortals in prior decades is a sign of the times, as is the slower but broader growth among them in more recent decades; but, between the living and the dead, the kingdom continues to grow in the net.

[Oliblish1832]

"Many are called but few are chosen" "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." I do not know why people expect the restoration to be something that has a nuclear unavoidable persuasion on earth. Even Christ himself at the time of his death had his twelve apostles, his mom, and a couple other friends, that's it. And two of his beloved denied him within 24 hours of his death. The gospel is an invitation to a better way that requires immense sacrifice from a previous way of life, way of thought, and way of action. The restoration has done an immense amount for humanitarian efforts, missionary work, spreading the gospel of Christ, and bringing back some of the most spiritually penetrating ordinances one can participate in. Probably most importantly in my estimation though, is that the true philosophical model of God has been restored. The restoration is a slow process, and we are told that the things yet to be revealed are beyond our comprehension. But, like everything else in the universe that God has designed, it works through a slow evolutionary process because it forces us to grow, to innovate, and to choose on our own to be receptive to the new things that God has to reveal - which unfortunately is something that humans are pretty terrible at considering how pride is a major roadblock to humility. Mormonism IS the great secret. Nearly everybody knows about it, it's made fun of constantly, but below the surface of rocks in hats and gold plates lies the most incredible, optimistic, expansive, graceful, merciful, and fulfilling gospel.

[rodheadlee]

I would think that the largest impact would be on temple work, baptism for the dead  and sealing. 

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, this question, once it is formulated in my mind, has been promoted by the LDS claim that Joseph Smith had to restore the church that had been lost due to the apostacy that occured soon after the death of the Apostles. This apparently continued despite Christ's promise to be with the church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against.  Do you not agree that the whole of the West is in a state of apotasy now? That all churches are losing attendees. That thousands no longer identify as Christian nor anything else? I remember when my friends were investigating the LDS church how the missionaries bragged about their church being the fastest growing in the world. It had about 14 million members worldwide. I have just read somewhere that now the church membership is about 16 million world wide. So in about 50 years this church has grown about 2 million world wide. From what I have read many thousands have formally left the church. So, what difference has this great restoration made? On the world stage what impact has such a monumental event had? The answer is: minimal. These great and fantastic events, in world terms, have gone largely unnoticed, no one could say that of Christ and the work of the Apostles. In fact the Apostles had greater impact due to the grace of the Holy Spirit , and their work continued through the authority given to them and handed down through Bishops etc, than this great restoration according to Joseph Smith has ever had. So where is the massive benefit to mankind from a restoration that the world is largely ignoring? Did God intend that this restoration should be such a damp squib? If so why did he bother if the result is largely the same as you claim happened to the Church in the beginning? 

One point on the date of the Great Apostasy: The exact date of the Great Apostasy is actually unknown, all we are sure of is that there definitely was an apostasy by the time Joseph Smith had his first vision. We also know Moroni in the Book of Mormon died around 500 A.D., according to the book there were even other sheep that might have lingered on. Its our opinion base on our church structure that there was An Apostasy of the churches the sprung from Jerusalem in the wake of the loss of the Apostles, as they were the heads of the church, a bishop, legit or not, has no authority beyond the city he was presiding over. The Apostleship could not be usurped by a Bishop, even if legitimately ordained. If one believes in free will, things though unlikely, must be possible. I wouldn't exactly boast of the Dark Ages because your growth and conquests were great.

Christ's Promise: Biblical authors taught an inevitable apostasy. It seems strange to suggest Biblical authors, including Peter himself, were teaching something which Jesus supposedly denied would happen. Could it be that Jesus actually confirmed that the apostasy would occur in this verse? One must notice that the gates of hell (or hades/death), is not a force that can attack anything and cause an apostasy, a gate being a defensive barrier could only prevail by stop something from attacking itself. If this is about apostasy, was Christ saying that His Church was already inside the gates or that His Church would one day be dead (i.e., apostasy), held back by the gates, and that it was keys of the kingdom that would unlock those gates and free it?

Or its it the Gates of Death will not prevail, it will be defeated by the Church whom will be attacking death. Their weapon will be the sealing power Jesus gave Peter and the other apostles. By these key they could unlock the gates with the keys of death and hell. Speaking of being ineffective as a church, can you explain to the satisfaction of us why if you have the keys of the kingdom, why you cannot attack death, but rather condemn the unbaptized dead? Denying the power of God's church to prevail against death? The message of Latter-day Saints is that these keys are in our possession today, and that we prevail against death where others cannot. Our impact isn't easily seen, but its within our power to save all the dead who desire it.

Impact of the LDS Church: Depends on where you look. Are we so insignificant when people are actually jealous of our great power and wealth? Are we nobodies when there are massive institutions whose mission is to take us down? Could you imagine where we might be if they weren't there? The Devil is strong. To everyone's surprise, we've joined the world stage of academia a long time ago ever since the Oxford Movement. The discovery of the Dead Seas Scrolls that gave rise to the Royal Cult Studies, and ever since Mormonism has been on the lips of folk like Dr Margaret Barker. An article in the fall of 1998 issue of the evangelical publication "Trinity Journal" called "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?"

Or it it Growth? The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination, despite frequent news media comments to that effect. There has merely been a dip in recent times do to COVID-19, and yet we are still doing better than most.

Of all the lives we touch, must they be things that would effect your life? 75% of the church is made of converts, the average LDS lives 10 years longer than your average white American. If you joined today, you can benefit from it. LDS charities fund a wide variety of projects like drilling water wells, and distributing vaccines and wheel chairs. You haven't been in a disaster and see us in our yellow "Helping Hands" shirts, cleaning up? Perhaps you've done any genealogy, we have the world's largest genealogy database (if not now, then for-profit companies have used it for their own purposes). You like Television, CD-DVD tech, the electric guitar, video games, flatbed scanners, transistor radios, stereo sound, hearing aids, laser surgery, heart bypass machines, artificial hearts, synthetic diamonds? Well, you are welcome.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

There is so much in your assumptions in this paragraph that it would take a long time to address them all, but I don't have time to do that now.  But I'll say that as has been mentioned, the apostasy refers to a loss of priesthood authority so that there was no one on the earth any more who was authorized to speak for God and perform His ordinances.

 

Not true. 

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

As Fether noted, the restored church is far outperforming the original church at the 200 year marker.  

Well the population was less than as well.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

One estimate puts Christian membership in 200 A.D at between 150,000 to 350,000.   Any estimate near 16.8 million (current membership today) would be wildly off the mark. 

16.8 Million is overblown.  You maybe have 35% of that that are active participants.  Far less endowed.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

 

 

The church was mostly seen as an obscure tiny Jewish sect until Constantine (not the apostles or bishops) really set it on the world stage in 313 A.D.

 

How many Christians were there in 312 AD?

 

 

312 AD - 3,500,000-4,000,000 Christians.

https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Christianity_in_the_Roman_Empire

 

2 hours ago, pogi said:

In regards to impact on the world stage...well, it would be helpful to look at things from an eternal perspective.  What has been restored is not only impacting those alive today, but is having and will continue to have an eternal impact on every soul who has ever lived on the earth via temple ordinances.  We have opened the door and provided the way and means for the gospel ordinances to be performed for all.  Not one will slip through the cracks.   I would call that a pretty significant impact.  

According to LDS Doctrine, yes.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Not true. 

Yes, it is true.  That is our belief of what the great apostasy was.  You can disagree with it but you don't get to tell us what we believe.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

You like Television, CD-DVD tech, the electric guitar, video games, flatbed scanners, transistor radios, stereo sound, hearing aids, laser surgery, heart bypass machines, artificial hearts, synthetic diamonds? Well, you are welcome.

And the Catholic responds: you like Western Civilization? Well, you are welcome.

[Pyreaux]

35 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

And the Catholic responds: you like Western Civilization? Well, you are welcome.

I thought the topic was what impact the LDS have had on the world. So excuse me if I forgot about others. As far as western civilization goes, when run by the Catholic Church I differ to William Manchester's "A World Lit Only by Fire", which speaks of centuries in which nothing much had improved or declined when the Roman Empire fell and the Church was at its peak. The church was strong and united, the afterlife was a certainty, all knowledge was already known and nothing would ever change... Until the black death swept over Europe, finally followed by a plague inspired breach of innovation in the Renaissance. Though many of those innovators were Catholic. So mixed feelings on that.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I thought the topic was what impact the LDS have had on the world. So excuse me if I forgot about others. As far as western civilization goes, when run by the Catholic Church I differ to William Manchester's "A World Lit Only by Fire", which speaks of centuries in which nothing much had improved or declined when the Roman Empire fell and the Church was at its peak. The church was strong and united, the afterlife was a certainty, all knowledge was already known and nothing would ever change... Until the black death swept over Europe, finally followed by a plague inspired breach of innovation in the Renaissance. Though many of those innovators were Catholic. So mixed feelings on that.

I didn't mind that you "forgot about others." My point was that you made a list of inventions made by single individuals who are/were, I assume, LDS, and showed that as the LDS impact on the world. That pales in comparison to the impact made by an institution made up of millions and millions of individuals that gave us western civilization. I think focusing on size, numbers, etc., doesn't really work as evidence.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If you had made the effort to familiarize yourself with the prophesies of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, you would understand that the restoration of the Church of Christ and kingdom of God on earth is still in its infancy, relatively speaking, and that the day will fully come when the restored Church of Christ will finally come out of its obscurity, and when it does every human being on earth will be well aware of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the fact that they have a to make a decision to either stand with it or be consumed by fire at the Second Coming. In other words, you haven’t seen anything yet. And the day will soon arrive when the only places of peace, safety and refuge from constant warfare and the cataclysmic judgements of an offended God on earth will be within the city of Zion (the New Jerusalem) and her stakes. When that day comes, if you’re still living in the flesh on earth, you will come to realize that you incorrectly judged the destiny of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and you and your presumptuous attitude will be humbled to the dust.

And then I shall look down from on high and say: “I told you so” followed by pointing down at you and laughing.

[Pyreaux]

Quote

I didn't mind that you "forgot about others." My point was that you made a list of inventions made by single individuals who are/were, I assume, LDS, and showed that as the LDS impact on the world. That pales in comparison to the impact made by an institution made up of millions and millions of individuals that gave us western civilization. I think focusing on size, numbers, etc., doesn't really work as evidence.

Except I wasn't comparing it to any other groups, I was answering Orthodox Christian's question. Is that a retort? Has the LDS people had no significant impact, because I'm arguing they have. If this were Black History Month and someone asks about what significant impact blacks have had in our culture, then someone starts listing their contributions as a group and inventions created by black individuals like; open heart surgery and peanut butter... Are you then going to swoop in and bring up how that all pales in comparison to white contributions? I mean, no one was denying other people's contributions.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Most of us dream of doing that someday, don’t we?

Not me of course but most people, I think.

No.

I mean the pointing and laughing at the people burning up will definitely happen. I just expect to be burning too.

[Orthodox Christian]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, it is true.  That is our belief of what the great apostasy was.  You can disagree with it but you don't get to tell us what we believe.

It is not true, it may be your belief but that does not make it true.

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't mind that you "forgot about others." My point was that you made a list of inventions made by single individuals who are/were, I assume, LDS, and showed that as the LDS impact on the world. That pales in comparison to the impact made by an institution made up of millions and millions of individuals that gave us western civilization. I think focusing on size, numbers, etc., doesn't really work as evidence.

OH Yeah?

Well MY Pop can beat up YOUR measly little Pop! 

Just wait til he gets home! 😡

 

 

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Except I wasn't comparing it to any other groups, I was answering Orthodox Christian's question. Is that a retort? Has the LDS people had no significant impact, because I'm arguing they have. If this were Black History Month and someone asks about what significant impact blacks have had in our culture, then someone starts listing their contributions as a group and inventions created by black individuals like; open heart surgery and peanut butter... Are you then going to swoop in and bring up how that all pales in comparison to white contributions? I mean, no one was denying other people's contributions.

Yeah and what about Santa Claus?

[mfbukowski]

27 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Most of us dream of doing that someday, don’t we?

Not me of course but most people, I think.

Wow Ahab, I would never thought.....  uh......  wait a minute.....

[MiserereNobis]

31 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I was joking. Was Ahab a joker? Not all jokers are Ahab. I am not Ahab.

Are you the human who typed the words that the avatar Ahab posted?

ETA:

Maybe I should post the question like this: Is the human typing the words for Obehave the same human who typed the words for Ahab?

Edited June 29, 2022 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

It is not true, it may be your belief but that does not make it true.

And it is my duty to point out that we of course can say the same to you and this nonsense can go on forever without any way to resolve it 

Can we stop now, and maybe discuss more important things like how we can help each other survive the apparent crash of Christianity?