Thoughts on the Church's Response to Ukraine Conflict

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The Russian people do not appear to be at fault in this conflict--as it sounds like most of the soldiers are there against their will or did not know they would be invading. 

Some Russians, yes. Some soldiers yes. But not enough. Otherwise you would not see protesters in Russia being tossed in jail and maybe more soldiers would lay down their arms in protest.

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

And Russian members are probably losing children/parents/family members too. 

How are Russian members losing children, parents and family. Is Ukraine invading Russia?

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

 

And they will suffer from the sanctions as well, also without most russians having any way to impact what their country is doing.

Yes, Russia is in the wrong and Ukraine needs to be liberated and kept free, but from a church point of view, with members in both countries who are suffering (not to the same extent) and both are important to the church.  Given that, I think that the church's statement is likely as partisan as it can be.  Especially since it has a presence in Russia and is trying to build a temple in siberia and probably doesn't want to be kicked out completely.

 

Who cares if there are members in both nations. Call out the leaders of Russia then and who gives a rip about a temple in Russia right now. Take a stand for right vs wrong.  I though the church taught that. Instead they want to be politically correct and not hurt anyone's feelings.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 I don't really understand this sentiment.  Does she think that if we don't pray for Ukraine to win that God will be confused and accidentally cause the wrong outcome?

Praying won't make a difference.  If it did Russia would not have invaded in the first place. Don't you think there were a lot of prayers that this would not happen? 

[LoudmouthMormon]

The church has how many members in Russia?

If we came out with a condemnation against Russian aggression, what do you think the Russian government would do to them?  

And after Russia was done with our members, what do you think the Russian government would do to the church's efforts to spread the gospel in that area of the world?

Let's put it bluntly: For folks wanting a stronger response from the church, how many imprisoned, re-educated, dissapeared, or executed LDS Russians is it worth to you?  Name a number.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What are your thoughts about JustanAustralian's comment?

Thanks,

-Smac

His was the best reason to be measured and I was not thinking about that. 

[Raingirl]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Some Russians, yes. Some soldiers yes. But not enough. Otherwise you would not see protesters in Russia being tossed in jail and maybe more soldiers would lay down their arms in protest.

 

How are Russian members losing children, parents and family. Is Ukraine invading Russia?

 

Who cares if there are members in both nations. Call out the leaders of Russia then and who gives a rip about a temple in Russia right now. Take a stand for right vs wrong.  I though the church taught that. Instead they want to be politically correct and not hurt anyone's feelings.

It sounds like a building is more important to the church than the fact that a country has been invaded. It also sounds like the church values the lives of members over non-members. 

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

The Ukraine and Russia are fighting each other.  "Armed conflict" is an apt, objective description.

The people of Ukraine are fighting because they were invaded.  By an aggressor. That has a much larger army. Armed conflict is being mealy mouthed.

Human Rights Campaign: Russia, Ukraine & International Law: On Occupation, Armed Conflict and Human Rights

New York Post:

Quote

Broadly, the UN describes a war crime as “violations of international humanitarian law (treaty or customary law) that incur individual criminal responsibility under international law,” and take place during an armed conflict. 
...
War crimes are also defined as “other serious violation of laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict” including launching attacks against civilians or humanitarian assistance; launching an assault knowing it “will cause incident loss of life or injury to civilians”; attacking defenseless towns and villages that are not military objectives; killing or wounding combatants who have surrendered; and engaging in rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution or forced pregnancy. 
...
Crucially, the global body says war crimes must have both a contextual element (the fact of taking place during an armed conflict) and a mental element (intent and knowledge) to be categorized as such by the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

JD Supra:

Quote

While international humanitarian law (ius in bello) also protects personal property, it is only enforceable on a State-to-State level. International investment law, however, provides for direct recourse by the investor against the host State and can therefore be a powerful and effective means of protecting investments during and after armed conflicts.

Investment treaties protect against expropriation, physical aggression (full protection and security), discrimination, and unfair treatment.

INVESTMENT TREATIES APPLY DURING ARMED CONFLICT

As every treaty, investment treaties apply irrespective of armed conflicts.

However, certain protections do not apply in full force. Several treaties contain “war clauses” limiting investment protection during armed conflicts to non-discrimination. Others contain more extended clauses. Article 12(2) of the multilateral Energy Charter Treaty, for example, provides that losses of foreign investors resulting from requisitioning or destruction during armed conflict shall be compensated promptly, adequately, and effectively.

Risible, emotive terminology during moments of great import or high tension can be counter-productive.  For example, is "butchering a helpless, innocent baby" as a reference to elective abortion required?  Is anything less than that "mealy-mouthed?"

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 4, 2022 by smac97

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

What are your thoughts about JustanAustralian's comment?

His was the best reason to be measured and I was not thinking about that. 

Okay.  Now that I've brought it up, does it affect your assessment of the Church's public statement?

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I disagree. If the prophets words have no impact on world wide opinions then what does that say about our influence throughout the world? Coming out against this aggression would add to the outcry against Putin and hopefully do more good for the Ukrainians than it threatens Russian Mormons.

I get that it may endanger the saints in Russia and since I know no one there it is easy for me to wish we would take a much harder line against this invasion. Honest question, should the church mute what it says based on the possibility bad guys somewhere might harm members or even our future prospects in the area in question, especially in an event of such global impact like this one?

What does the church adding to the outcry against Putin specifically do for the Ukrainians?  

Think of it this way, would you mute your words if you know that bad guys somewhere might harm members of your family or cause otherwise harmful consequences?  Maybe not, but you can't pretend that the issue wouldn't be incredibly complicated and sensitive and you probably wouldn't make any decision based on "hoping" it turns out ok.

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Who cares if there are members in both nations.

The Church cares.

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Call out the leaders of Russia then and who gives a rip about a temple in Russia right now.

Do you think Putin would be affected by a public denunciation from the Church?  

Do you think there is an appreciable risk to the welfare of the Russian Latter-day Saints if the leaders of their Church in America publicly denounced Russia?

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Take a stand for right vs wrong. 

The Church's public statement is not "a stand?"

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I though the church taught that. Instead they want to be politically correct and not hurt anyone's feelings.

I suspect the Brethren are not concerned about political correctness or feelings, but are very much concerned about the safety and welfare of its members in both Ukraine and Russia.

I also think JustAnAustralian's observation likely has merit: "All I see a direct criticism of Russia doing is making life even more dangerous for church members in Russia."

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Some Russians, yes. Some soldiers yes. But not enough. Otherwise you would not see protesters in Russia being tossed in jail and maybe more soldiers would lay down their arms in protest.

 

How are Russian members losing children, parents and family. Is Ukraine invading Russia?

 

Who cares if there are members in both nations. Call out the leaders of Russia then and who gives a rip about a temple in Russia right now. Take a stand for right vs wrong.  I though the church taught that. Instead they want to be politically correct and not hurt anyone's feelings.

Because the Russian army is made up of people's children, parents and family members. And much of the Russian army is conscripted, meaning there against their will. 

And the church cares if there are members in both countries because it cares about the members in both countries.  Why would the church care about being politically correct on this?  Does the church have a history of being politically correct in its news releases? 

Doesn't seem like it does.

Edited March 4, 2022 by bluebell

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Praying won't make a difference.  If it did Russia would not have invaded in the first place. Don't you think there were a lot of prayers that this would not happen? 

Praying doesn't take away people's agency, very true.  And it doesn't negate God's will either.  So we (those who believe in prayer) don't really have to worry about accidentally binding God to a course of action that He doesn't condone through our prayers.

For those who don't believe in prayer, they can focus on the stuff that also didn't make a difference and keep this from happening.

[Tacenda]

I want all people in both countries not harmed, wish we had star wars or SDI's by now. 

[strappinglad]

Anyone here remember the Cuban missile crisis ? This conflict has similarities. The west has been after the Ukraine to move sides and Russia is miffed. The Ukraine was once third in the world for nuclear weapons. The West brokered a deal for the Ukraine to give up all its nuclear power in exchange for peace and a promise by Russia not to invade. Seems it didn't work for long. This conflict has several shades of grey. Putin wants his legacy to be the rebuilding of the USSR. Ukraine is just the beginning. 

 

[Duncan]

54 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The church has how many members in Russia?

If we came out with a condemnation against Russian aggression, what do you think the Russian government would do to them?  

And after Russia was done with our members, what do you think the Russian government would do to the church's efforts to spread the gospel in that area of the world?

Let's put it bluntly: For folks wanting a stronger response from the church, how many imprisoned, re-educated, dissapeared, or executed LDS Russians is it worth to you?  Name a number.

my sense is that Russia doesn't care one whit about church members in Russia, i.e if they were so upset by the church's response they would be jailing, killing them etc. It hasn't and hopefully won't. It's the same with Russia doesn't care about other nationalities in their borders and what their countries' are doing to help figure this out, i.e. Russia hasn't started killing Americans, Brits, Canadians etc. They seem to be focused on killing Ukrainians. You asked for naming a number, 0 is my number as there doesn't seem to be any imprisoned, re-educated, dissapeared (sic), or executed LDS members-and hopefully never will

[Calm]

The Russian government does not have a good record on religious freedom and it may be getting worse such as the long term imprisonment of Jehovah Witnesses which have been designated an extremist group, from wiki:

Quote

According to International Christian Concern, during 2021 "crackdowns on religious freedom have intensified in Russia."^[5]  During June of 2021, Forum 18highlighted that “twice as many prisoners of conscience are serving sentences or are in detention awaiting appeals for exercising freedom of religion or belief as in November 2020.”^[6] Some federal agencies, such as the Federal Registration Service, and many local authorities, continued to restrict the rights of some religious minorities. Legal obstacles to registration under a complex 1997 Law on Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations (the 1997 Law stating Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism as traditional religions) continued to seriously disadvantage some religious groups considered nontraditional. There were indications that the security services, including the Federal Security Service (FSB), treated the leadership of some Islamic groups as security threats.

They may be too busy right now, but later when looking for someone to vent anger on or blame, religious groups (even if members are mostly native) and foreigners are a likely target given past behaviour.  Latter-day Saints have been labeled extremist in the past by some Russians and given how most see it as a very American church, locals are at risk from what I hear from time to time.  I should ask my in-laws for an update as they have business connections there and try to work with local members often.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Calm

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

What does the church adding to the outcry against Putin specifically do for the Ukrainians? 

What does the church's tepid response to Putin specifically not do for the Ukrainians?

 

Let's count the number of Mormons in Russia and the number of Mormons in the Ukraine and whichever has more will decide how we react.

[Saint Bonaventure]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I get her point about not wanting peace. 

What I don't get is her point about the importance of not praying for peace, as if God will get the answer wrong if we don't word our prayer correctly.  Do we/people believe that God is hemmed in by the words that we choose to use? Or that we can sincerely but incorrectly pray for the wrong thing and accidentally cause it to happen?

Your comments remind me of Paul's teaching in Romans 8:26:

 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.

[SkyRock]

Do any of you crying about Ukraine now know anything about its recent history, the US coup in 2014, the thousands killed by the Ukrainian government, the Ukrainian Nazis that are part of the current government and a large part of the Ukrainian army, or the complete corruption of the country?   And now opposition politicians in Ukraine are reporting that Zelenski has $1.5 billion stashed after just 3 years in office.   This isn't something to be emotionally tied up in.

Ukraine is an artificial country that should have been split up like Czechia and Slovakia instead remaining together. It has no historical basis, no common language, etc.  

Israel's periodic wars with its neighbors and the US wars around the world have killed far more.  There was an extreme failure of diplomacy here. 

Most anyone hyperventilating over this shows that they are easily manipulated by propaganda.  

War is bad.   Better if Russia hadn't invaded.  But are any of you concerned about recent US bombings in Somalia?  Or the continued US support of the mass killings in Yemen?  Did you scream over Burma?  Or China eliminating freedom in Hong Kong or having concentration camps for genocide of Uighurs?

[JustAnAustralian]

32 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Let's count the number of Mormons in Russia and the number of Mormons in the Ukraine and whichever has more will decide how we react.

Russia doesn't give a crap about what the church says. Everyone knows what event the church is talking about. The Mormons in Ukraine are suffering the same as the rest of the Ukranians. The church explicitly naming Russia or Putin isn't going to do anything to help that. It may however mean that Russian Mormons ALSO suffer.

[JustAnAustralian]

20 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

Ukraine is an artificial country... It has no historical basis, no common language, etc.  

All countries are artificial based on that. Why should when the political division happens make a country like Ukraine different to the USA, which also had a language, and political boundary forced on the people already there?

Edited March 5, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[The Nehor]

I see a lot of talk about genocide here but that is not Russia’s goal. Sure, they plan to kill off the civilian and military leadership but there is no plant to wipe out the ethnic Ukrainian people. The Russians don’t see them as foreigners. They view them as fellow Russians. They might wipe out other groups (Jews, lgbt leaders, other minorities those they view as anti-Russian Nazis, etc) and anyone opposed to some kind of united Russian state or alliance. That is part of what caught the Russians off guard. They really thought the people in general would greet them as liberators. You can see the Russian kids in the military talking about being shocked that they are the ones being viewed as fascists.

One thing that might have contributed to the invasion is that President Zelensky is Jewish and anti-semitism has been on the rise again in Russia. It never went away but it has been intensifying. He is also the first Jew to be a head of state in the modern era. Of course with the proviso of “except Israel”.

Oddly at the same time Israel seems to be aligning itself more towards Russia now that the US is more dubious about continuing their continuous military aid budget and the US feels snubbed over Israel’s refusal to share Iron Dome tech with Ukraine. This is not that surprising. The bulk of the Jewish immigrants from the creation of Israel came from Soviet states and Eastern Europe. The times are changing.

I admit I did not have “NATO becomes immensely relevant” again on my 2022 bingo card nor did I expect my outdated interest in MAD and nuclear doctrine to be useful ever again. Weird times.

 

I think the church was wise to stay neutral. Condemning the Russian leadership might have felt good for members around the world but it is the Russian church membership who might have ended up suffering and the church’s stance would have changed virtually nothing on the international stage. If you want the church’s more covert opinion note that the church is collecting aid for Ukraine and not for Russia. Russia is going to be needing help very soon now that their economy blew up. If you want proof of who church leadership views as victims that is where to look.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

Do any of you crying about Ukraine now know anything about its recent history, the US coup in 2014, the thousands killed by the Ukrainian government, the Ukrainian Nazis that are part of the current government and a large part of the Ukrainian army, or the complete corruption of the country?   And now opposition politicians in Ukraine are reporting that Zelenski has $1.5 billion stashed after just 3 years in office.   This isn't something to be emotionally tied up in.

Ukraine is an artificial country that should have been split up like Czechia and Slovakia instead remaining together. It has no historical basis, no common language, etc.  

Israel's periodic wars with its neighbors and the US wars around the world have killed far more.  There was an extreme failure of diplomacy here. 

Most anyone hyperventilating over this shows that they are easily manipulated by propaganda.  

For someone complaining about everyone being blinded by propaganda you sure are repeating Russia’s propaganda points very well. This is what is running nonstop on domestic Russian broadcasting to justify the invasion. If you find yourself agreeing with the propaganda of an authoritarian state looking to impose their will on others you may want to take a step back and reexamine.

The government that the US-supported coup put in (and the amount of support is vastly overstated in many quarters) is not there anymore. Ukraine is a hybrid state. It is drenched in corruption and is working from being an authoritarian state to a more democratic one and it was working bit by bit. If it wasn’t a state before it is now. They have their George Washington and honestly in many ways a better one at least for this era. They now have martyrs. They have tales of fighting against overwhelming odds. “Our fathers and mothers who battled the military that fueled the Cold War”. Win or lose, those stories are not going away and are why I think Ukraine will keep fighting until they liberate their nation again even if they temporarily go under. Some won’t surrender. Nations have survived on much less impressive shared histories.

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

But are any of you concerned about recent US bombings in Somalia?  Or the continued US support of the mass killings in Yemen?  Did you scream over Burma?  Or China eliminating freedom in Hong Kong or having concentration camps for genocide of Uighurs?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Ukraine has a few elements that set it apart for the western world. They are racially more like us so we are more prone to sympathize with them. Horrible to say but true. It is also a much less ambiguous conflict. Most of the other conflicts you mention (outside China) have lots of factions and different moving parts. There are rebel groups on all sides fighting for their own agendas and who is in the right and who is in the wrong is all muddled. The one exception is China and there is just honestly not much that can be done about China persecuting its own population that doesn’t involve destabilizing most of the world. Ukraine has a clear aggressor and a clear victim. Yes, there are factions on both sides and some are vile and it is very complex but the simple simplicity of the situation makes it easier to support one side.

Edited March 5, 2022 by The Nehor

[SkyRock]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

For someone complaining about everyone being blinded by propaganda you sure are repeating Russia’s propaganda points very well. This is what is running nonstop on domestic Russian broadcasting to justify the invasion. If you find yourself agreeing with the propaganda of an authoritarian state looking to impose their will on others you may want to take a step back and reexamine.

The government that the US-supported coup put in (and the amount of support is vastly overstated in many quarters) is not there anymore. Ukraine is a hybrid state. It is drenched in corruption and is working from being an authoritarian state to a more democratic one and it was working bit by bit. If it wasn’t a state before it is now. They have their George Washington and honestly in many ways a better one at least for this era. They now have martyrs. They have tales of fighting against overwhelming odds. “Our fathers and mothers who battled the military that fueled the Cold War”. Win or lose, those stories are not going away and are why I think Ukraine will keep fighting until they liberate their nation again even if they temporarily go under. Some won’t surrender. Nations have survived on much less impressive shared histories.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Ukraine has a few elements that set it apart for the western world. They are racially more like us so we are more prone to sympathize with them. Horrible to say but true. It is also a much less ambiguous conflict. Most of the other conflicts you mention (outside China) have lots of factions and different moving parts. There are rebel groups on all sides fighting for their own agendas and who is in the right and who is in the wrong is all muddled. The one exception is China and there is just honestly not much that can be done about China persecuting its own population that doesn’t involve destabilizing most of the world. Ukraine has a clear aggressor and a clear victim. Yes, there are factions on both sides and some are vile and it is very complex but the simple simplicity of the situation 

These are the facts of the situation.  They have been the facts for years.   Those that actually paid attention to foreign affairs prior to last week knew them.

Calling them "Russian propaganda" is admitting your status as controlled by propaganda.

During the Cold War, the US was accused of biological warfare by Eastern bloc nations.  The US called it Communist propaganda.  Funny thing is, it was all true, as documents released gradually with the FOIA have shown.   

So far during this conflict one side has pushed a lot of fake stories.  Exercise discernment.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

For someone complaining about everyone being blinded by propaganda you sure are repeating Russia’s propaganda points very well. This is what is running nonstop on domestic Russian broadcasting to justify the invasion.

Until today, I didn't realize that domestic meant the US.

[katherine the great]

Just an observation: Referring to it as “the Ukraine” is part of the problem.  That just means “the Ukranian territory of Russia”.  Ukraine is now a sovereign nation.