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Global flood literalism rides again!


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Interesting discussion. Of course, the laws of physics are immutable, as far as we can understand them. God understands them all. Of course, the supposed miracles in the Bible and Book of Mormon are all explained by God’s laws.  From a technical point of view, there is no such a thing as a miracle. 
I’m not a flood literalist. From the POV of the observer, I’m sure it seemed like all the world would seem flooded. When explorers came to the confluence of the Amazon and Marañon rivers they could not see the shore. Marañon literally means sea or not. The explorers were unsure if they had discovered a new ocean or sea. 
It is interesting, however, that almost every culture has a flood myth. 
 

Everything in the Bible should be looked at and interpreted in context. Like the Book of Mormon, it is primarily religious, and intended to promote faith in Christ. 

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14 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Everything in the Bible should be looked at and interpreted in context. Like the Book of Mormon, it is primarily religious, and intended to promote faith in Christ. 

Yep!

It speaks answers to WHY questions that science doesn't even comprehend.   Why does something exist rather than nothing?  To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children.

That is a paradigm which when believed and used as a model to give one purpose in life, results in the believer following the Proclamation on the Family, and thereby leads to the most ideal society attainable by mankind.

We must look to the FUNCTION of the belief itself- what does the belief result in?  A perfected form of mankind

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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Of course, the laws of physics are immutable, as far as we can understand them. God understands them all. Of course, the supposed miracles in the Bible and Book of Mormon are all explained by God’s laws.  From a technical point of view, there is no such a thing as a miracle. 

This exactly.

There are laws of physics we haven't even conceived of.  Yet we assume our paltry understanding of a few of them can't be superceded by the creator of the Universe.

I seriously wonder what kind of God we believe in these days.

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We must look to the FUNCTION of the belief itself- what does the belief result in? 

In my opinion the results of participation in the LDS belief system speak very well of its utility.  It would be much more convenient for me (as ex-LDS) if participation in the belief system clearly produced "bad fruit", but the opposite seems to be the case, whether or not I'm in agreement on this or that topic.

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8 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

The entire Book of Mormon story bucks against Christian "literalist stances."

Are you differentiating between LDS Christian and non-LDS Christian "literalist stances?" If so, what is to be gained by doing so? Thanks.

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38 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

In my opinion the results of participation in the LDS belief system speak very well of its utility.  It would be much more convenient for me (as ex-LDS) if participation in the belief system clearly produced "bad fruit", but the opposite seems to be the case, whether or not I'm in agreement on this or that topic.

This was the intellectual aspect that convinced me 40 years ago as a devout pragmatist that Mormonism was an outstanding paradigm, with "eternal truth" because I believe all humans evolved to desire peaceful family life. That is why we have not wiped ourselves off the planet... yet.

But direct experience of the divine was the clincher!

God confirming utilitarianism and Pragmatism?

I had no choice!  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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34 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Are you differentiating between LDS Christian and non-LDS Christian "literalist stances?" If so, what is to be gained by doing so? Thanks.

We get a lot of flak about "adding to this book" when "book" is interpreted as being the whole bible.

And how could Jesus be Satan's brother?  And becoming Gods?

The flood is nothing !

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Error

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This exactly.

There are laws of physics we haven't even conceived of.  Yet we assume our paltry understanding of a few of them can't be superceded by the creator of the Universe.

I seriously wonder what kind of God we believe in these days.

We live in a very narrow bandwidth when it comes to all the laws of physics.  We live in a fallen mortal telestial world.  The Celestial and Terrestrial kingdoms would not be governed by telestial laws of physics.  We may be limited to the speed of light but there is no reason to think Celestial or Terrestrial beings are limited by it.  God can move throughout the universe with ease.  A billion light years is not a long distance for God to move through.  We can't even use modern physics and instruments to see into the spirit world that is all around us.  Man thinks the is smart but I think even the smartest people like Einstein and Hawkings have come to understand that mortal man understanding of things is extremely small after having spent some time on the other side of the veil.

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5 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

From a technical point of view, there is no such a thing as a miracle. 

This belief would make me sad. The complete dismissal of the supernatural and the total embracing of scientific materialism by the LDS faith is something I cannot connect to on a deep level. It’s like the Diest clockmaker. I know this post is critical of your worldview, and I try not to be on your forum, but I really want to express that the denial of the miraculous and the “spiritual” (meaning type of being) is something that would leave me floundering and bereft. It does not align with my experiences at all. 

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8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This belief would make me sad. The complete dismissal of the supernatural and the total embracing of scientific materialism by the LDS faith is something I cannot connect to on a deep level. It’s like the Diest clockmaker. I know this post is critical of your worldview, and I try not to be on your forum, but I really want to express that the denial of the miraculous and the “spiritual” (meaning type of being) is something that would leave me floundering and bereft. It does not align with my experiences at all. 

He's not denying the miraculous and the spiritual --- we believe in and (hopefully) partake of and experience these. He's just saying that what is miraculous and supernatural to us (totally unexplainable by science) wouldn't be a miracle or supernatural if we understood what God understands and knows. We still "see through a glass darkly" when it comes to science, and many things that science says cannot happen or cannot be done actually can --- within the fulness of the laws that govern God's creations and His being. 

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9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This belief would make me sad. The complete dismissal of the supernatural and the total embracing of scientific materialism by the LDS faith is something I cannot connect to on a deep level. It’s like the Diest clockmaker. I know this post is critical of your worldview, and I try not to be on your forum, but I really want to express that the denial of the miraculous and the “spiritual” (meaning type of being) is something that would leave me floundering and bereft. It does not align with my experiences at all. 

Having grown up in the faith with the belief that in the eternities God will share his awareness of all that exists, I cannot compare the awe that arises from a belief in the supernatural and unknowable mysteries of the work of God to the awe I experience through my belief that even the knowledge gap will be bridged by the Lord through the Atonement and that God wants to share that with me and will prepare me to receive it, whatever that takes.

But there is a truly unexpressable awe, joy, delight, wonder, excitement, anticipation of pure fun that fills me when I think of the absolute glory sharing in this awareness, of understanding in every way possible all things…not because of any sense of power, but through such awareness comes oneness and experience of the ultimate Truth, which is God’s experience of the universe.  Some of the happiest moments in my life are contemplating this future gift. (Learning is my favorite thing to do).
 

There is the mortal experience of acquiring knowledge which is a mix of drudgery and delight in my experience.  There is awe at what can be achieve, but no wonder…it is a matter of time and persistence.  God’s knowledge on the other hand, I see it as less work and more of a feast or like the sun coming up flooding the world with color and shining directly on me gives me warmth.

I don’t know if many other LDSaints anticipate communion in this way, but from what I have read and heard described, there is not really a void left by seeing the world as fully natural, but still with a mix of what limited knowledge mortal man may come to grasp and the glorified intelligence that allows God to comprehend all nature without any of the limits mortality places on us.  We tend to fill it with our own mystery, but mysteries God has promised to unravel for us.

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This belief would make me sad. The complete dismissal of the supernatural and the total embracing of scientific materialism by the LDS faith is something I cannot connect to on a deep level. It’s like the Diest clockmaker. I know this post is critical of your worldview, and I try not to be on your forum, but I really want to express that the denial of the miraculous and the “spiritual” (meaning type of being) is something that would leave me floundering and bereft. It does not align with my experiences at all. 

I'm with Cal.  There are a lot of things that will always be a mystery or supernatural to me during this life because I will never be able to understand it.  But because I believe that God will truly share all that He has with us if we become joint-heirs with Christ, including His knowledge, I don't believe that these things will forever be a mystery or unknowable.

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5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm with Cal.  There are a lot of things that will always be a mystery or supernatural to me during this life because I will never be able to understand it.  But because I believe that God will truly share all that He has with us if we become joint-heirs with Christ, including His knowledge, I don't believe that these things will forever be a mystery or unknowable.

This is a part of our doctrine too:

D&C 130:9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;


All things within our sphere will be made know, just as they are to God.  And knowledge of new spheres will begin to be made known.  So that would mean all "scientific" knowledge concerning this lower order earth will be known to us.
Including how God worked any "miracles".

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46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Gotr anything better than ad hominems?

Well you basically come in here and call everyone stupid. But yeah I have a really important question that requires academic prowess, impeccable research methods and high intelligence.

Does your Google Maps AI cop an attitude when you don't follow directions?

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3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well you basically come in here and call everyone stupid.

CFR. I have never called anyone stupid.  

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

 

 

But yeah I have a really important question that requires academic prowess, impeccable research methods and high intelligence.

Does your Google Maps AI cop an attitude when you don't follow directions?

Feeling cutsie today?😏

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21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A local, regional flood will seem to be worldwide to the local people.  Ancient peoples did not have the planetary view that we have.  We cannot use their nearsighted views as normative.  People wrote the text of Genesis.  They did the best they could based on their limited knowledge.

Several months ago my multiple attempts to comment on this board failed, even though I could log in.  I'm testing to see if this situation has been corrected.  If successful, my actual comment will follow.

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21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A local, regional flood will seem to be worldwide to the local people.  Ancient peoples did not have the planetary view that we have.  We cannot use their nearsighted views as normative.  People wrote the text of Genesis.  They did the best they could based on their limited knowledge.

My, my.  lt worked.

There is actually another flood scenario that is almost always, if not always, ignored.  That is one where a catastrophic event may have been severe enough to cause massive precip., w/concomitant massive, world-wide flooding.  This doesn't mean a "world-wide flood, per se, even one covering most of the planet, but one where vast areas could have been flooded, especially in the low-lands of the world and/or its very large flood planes.

Such a possible event and its evidence is presented by S. C. Compton in his book, Exodus Lost.  If anyone is interested, I'll synopsize the evidence for you, as I get time.

 

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

CFR. I have never called anyone stupid.  

Well, you never used the word "stupid", but we get the drift.

From this thread:

Quote

Come on! Don't use logic or reason with these issues.  😁

From another thread, which applies:

Quote

Hard to sell something that is so clearly patently false with all the  info out there

One would have to be pretty stupid to buy into it, right?  Especially after having been presented the info against it and they still believe! 

Quote

It is a losing battle though pretty much either way. A medium examination of the LDS truth claims it all it takes for them to crumble for most people that are able to use critical skills.

How stupid must we be to not be able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims.  Clearly we are unable to use critical thinking skills.  Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

Well, you never used the word "stupid", but we get the drift.

From this thread:

THe emoji with a smile was meant  to show I was joking.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

From another thread, which applies:

One would have to be pretty stupid to buy into it, right?  Especially after having been presented the info against it and they still believe! 

If you want to interpret it that way I cannot help it. I certainly don't think people who stay LDS even after a knowledge of the problem areas are stupid.  Two of my closest friends are as much or more aware of the issues than I am. We discus them.  They are both very bright attorneys and two of the most thoughtful, well read and intelligent people I know.  I don't think they are stupid. But they are both Democrats so that may be it.😉

5 hours ago, pogi said:

How stupid must we be to not be able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims.  Clearly we are unable to use critical thinking skills.  Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

I mentioned on the other thread you refer to that I have been emotionally upset recently and apologized for being more strident then I think I normally am.

I will work on my delivery I have typically admired your thoughtful posts.

Edited by Teancum
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20 minutes ago, blarsen said:

My, my.  lt worked.

There is actually another flood scenario that is almost always, if not always, ignored.  That is one where a catastrophic event may have been severe enough to cause massive precip., w/concomitant massive, world-wide flooding.  This doesn't mean a "world-wide flood, per se, even one covering most of the planet, but one where vast areas could have been flooded, especially in the low-lands of the world and/or its very large flood planes.

Such a possible event and its evidence is presented by S. C. Compton in his book, Exodus Lost.  If anyone is interested, I'll synopsize the evidence for you, as I get time.

 

I watched a show that is close to this idea. They were talking about how catastrophic it would have been for the people in the area when the Black Sea flooded into and connecting to the Mediterranean. Because it used to be a lake, and there is evidence that civilizations were covered when that change happened.

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59 minutes ago, pogi said:

How stupid must we be to not be able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims.  Clearly we are unable to use critical thinking skills.  Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

What fascinates me is how you must have been as a bishop and HC member.

Were you then not "able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims. "  ??

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

Well, you never used the word "stupid", but we get the drift.

From this thread:

From another thread, which applies:

One would have to be pretty stupid to buy into it, right?  Especially after having been presented the info against it and they still believe! 

How stupid must we be to not be able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims.  Clearly we are unable to use critical thinking skills.  Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

Expressions of incredulity are not the same as calling anyone stupid.

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