Global flood literalism rides again!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, blarsen said:

....................

There is actually another flood scenario that is almost always, if not always, ignored.  That is one where a catastrophic event may have been severe enough to cause massive precip., w/concomitant massive, world-wide flooding.  This doesn't mean a "world-wide flood, per se, even one covering most of the planet, but one where vast areas could have been flooded, especially in the low-lands of the world and/or its very large flood planes.

Such a possible event and its evidence is presented by S. C. Compton in his book, Exodus Lost.  If anyone is interested, I'll synopsize the evidence for you, as I get time.

I have not read S. C. Compton, Exodus Lost: An Inquiry into the Genesis of Civilization (BookSurge, 2010), although it looks interesting.

Those of us who have been formally trained as archeologists in the transition from the old stone age of man into the holocene, understand that the worldwide flood myths most likely go back to the great pluvial rains which came with the end of the last ice age -- all the ice melted and the ocean rose 300 feet higher than it had been during the height of the ice age.  Most people wrongly assume that current ocean levels (sea level) are and always have been normal.  Most people also wrongly assume that current rain averages are and always have been normal.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have not read S. C. Compton, Exodus Lost: An Inquiry into the Genesis of Civilization (BookSurge, 2010)

Rep point for the diligent way you added publisher and copyright info in a random internet message.

The bookseller in me likes that!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Expressions of incredulity are not the same as calling anyone stupid.

... Depending on context. 

I can't believe you didn't know that! 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Rep point for the diligent way you added publisher and copyright info in a random internet message.

The bookseller in me likes that!

That's Robert!

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That's Robert!

He tones up the place.  

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This belief would make me sad. The complete dismissal of the supernatural and the total embracing of scientific materialism by the LDS faith is something I cannot connect to on a deep level. It’s like the Diest clockmaker. I know this post is critical of your worldview, and I try not to be on your forum, but I really want to express that the denial of the miraculous and the “spiritual” (meaning type of being) is something that would leave me floundering and bereft. It does not align with my experiences at all. 

I think I understand both sides at the same time- it's, as usual, the rabbit/duck quandary.

Science confirms the LDS approach as you point out, though few see that, so congratulations!   Alma 32 is essentially a justification for both scienctific materialism AND seeing spiritual truth as justified only by the miracle of God's actual communication with his children.

That's why I keep harping on James' Radical Empiricism.   If one includes both scientific AND spiritual experience as "valid evidence" one can see Wittgenstein's duck and the rabbit at the same time as "true representations" seen from a different context

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

CFR. I have never called anyone stupid.  

Feeling cutsie today?😏

 

 

On 1/19/2022 at 10:27 AM, Teancum said:

And it is wonderful that hobbits, dwarves', elves, orcs and wizards exist in middle earth.

 

On 1/19/2022 at 10:29 AM, Teancum said:

God is just tricking us. It happened and now he is letting the evidence show it did not. Faith man!  Faith!😏

 

On 1/19/2022 at 11:31 AM, Teancum said:

Come on! Don't use logic or reason with these issues.  😁

 

On 1/17/2022 at 11:28 AM, Teancum said:

Rah, rah!  It is always prophesied not matter which way it goes. Now can you step off the Samuel the Lamanite wall and address the post?

 

On 1/17/2022 at 4:38 PM, Teancum said:

No don't bother. Empathy seems to be a difficult concept for you.

I love that whenever I wonder if leaving the Church was a bad decision I just come here and spend some time with some of you folks and I know that is was one of the best choices  I have ever made. Appreciate that.

 

On 1/17/2022 at 4:48 PM, Teancum said:

You also seem to struggle with self reflection.

You're right you never called us stupid you just insinuated it.

Edited January 21, 2022 by rodheadlee

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Rep point for the diligent way you added publisher and copyright info in a random internet message.

The bookseller in me likes that!

I took a look inside the book online, at the sample pages, and it looks very interesting and worthwhile.  Not too expensive, and it is available as an ebook.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right you never called us stupid you just insinuated it.

I will try to do better.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What fascinates me is how you must have been as a bishop and HC member.

Were you then not "able to execute even a "medium examination" of the LDS truth claims. "  ??

Are you speaking to me or Pogi?

What specifically would you like to know? 

I have had been a hobby apologist for many years.  It was while I was a bishop that I started having some serious doubts but buried them for obvious reasons.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Teancum

[rodheadlee]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I will try to do better.

Ok, cool. Thanks. 

[blarsen]

 

 

 

On 1/20/2022 at 7:38 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I took a look inside the book online, at the sample pages, and it looks very interesting and worthwhile.  Not too expensive, and it is available as an ebook.

Following is my synopsis of the evidence Compton presents for a world-wide event including flooding and possibly massive rain fall, taking place in the 5,200 years BP time frame.  This is just one of several of his propositions from his book.  It may be too long for a single post, but here goes:

There is strong evidence for a massive bolide (very large meteor) impact event that happened circa 3,200 BC or 5,200 yrs BP. It was discovered by Dr. Dallas H. Abbott, of LaMont-Doherty Earth Observatory in 2005 (see: Exodus Lost by S.C. Compton, 2010), and is called the Burkle Crater.

The main evidence for this is a 25 km diameter crater that has been found using geophysical methods on the floor of the Indian Ocean. Modeling indicates the size of the meteor would have had to be about 5 km diameter to create the crater it did and at the bottom of 12,500 feet of water. Estimates of the energy are ~ 20,000,000 megatons of force, equivalent to about 1,330,000,000 Hiroshima-style atomic bombs.

They also estimate that several trillion tons of water could have been displaced into the atmosphere, and chevrons of sediment thrown up onto surrounding coastlines indicate a tsunami that was 600 ft high.

What goes up, has to come down . . . not to mention the flooding from such a massive tsunami . . . . though it would dampen as it traveled through the world's oceans.

There are 2-3 ancient calendars that mark a flood event as the start of their new calendric era at roughly this same time, and there are many other physical conditions in ice and sediments that seem to have radically changed around that time, as well.

Here’s the evidence, taken from pages 141-155 of Compton’s Exodus Lost, 2010:

1.       Calendar evidence; indicating  a flood at  ~ 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP) 

a.      Babylonian flood-start at 3189 BC as indicated by the Atrahasis Epic of the tribal Ammorites, “easily the most sophisticated of all known ancient Near-Eastern mythological epics – Sumerian, Accadian, Canaanite (Ugaritic), Horite (Hurrian) and Hittite”.  They carried this into Babylon. This was the end of one of four of their 600 year ages or epics separated by calamities; with the last one, delineated by the great flood.  It’s interesting to note that Noah was 600 years old when the Biblical flood began.

b.      Ancient Indian texts indicate a last world flood, also one of four, took place at 3,102 BC as indicated by ancient Indian texts:  the Sataptha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and several Puhanas.  This ushered in our current Kali Yuga age.  Speculation is that these two accounts (Babylonian and Indian) may be related.

c.       Mayan/Aztec calendars count time from 3114 BC, also demarcating a flood that ended the fourth of four ages.  Evidence indicates the same date in Mixtec and Aztec calendric data, even in the Aztec Calendar stone; and speculation is that the Mayan’s inherited this story from the Olmecs.  Taken from:  Historia de los Mexicanos por sus Pinturas, ~1530s; Leyenda de los Soles, 1558; and the Codex Rios.  Their ages lasted 676 years as opposed to 600 years of the Babylonians, but they also say that 600 years passed between the “birth of the Gods and the creation of the earth”.

d.      Egyptian record of a flood.  Compton is sparse on this but cites an Egyptian text, The Destruction of Mankind, that cites a period of darkness after a great flood, but provides no footnote.

Commentary on the discrepancies of these dates:  The Babylonians only give a start date for the flood:  3189 BC.  But both the Indian and Mayan/Aztecan dates signify not the start of the flood, but the start of a new age with a new Sun God appearing after a period of darkness following the flood.  A Mayan pot exhibits an interim date of 3149 BC as the time when the old sun god was defeated after the flood, but a new one had not yet been installed (3114 BC).

Similarly, as indicated above, an Egyptian text (The Destruction of Mankind), “similarly describes a

period of time following the flood when the world was in darkness until a god could be found to become the new sun.

 

One of the characteristics of a large meteor (bolide) hitting the earth is a lot of dust (and in the case of the Burkle crater, immense amounts of water and water vapor) being sent into the atmosphere largely obscuring or dampening sunlight for several years.

2.      Physical evidence of a major planetary event happening in the 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP) time frame.  Footnotes for these claims can be found in the book.

a.       Major drop in temperature at the ~3,200 yrs BC mark, as indicated by:

1)      Oxygen 18 (δO18) ratio measurements in ice caps.

2)      δO18 ratios from stalagmites from cave formations

3)      Temperature sensitive chemicals in phytoplankton in sediments drilled from sea floor.

4)      Species of pollen trapped in ancient sediment layers.

b.      Monumental surge in precipitation for this time period, as indicated by:

1)      Sudden dramatic surge in methane at 3,200 yrs BC as found in air bubbles trapped in Greenland ice cap.  Methane correlates w/amount of wetlands.

2)      Pollen profiles indicate surge in precipitation at this time, as well.

3)      High precision records of water levels in ancient lakes increase at this time.

 

“In many of these paleoclimate records, this event is the most extreme increase in precipitation and drop in temperature in the more than 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age” and “was also nearly instantaneous.”

 

c.       Flash freeze events:

1)      Discovery in 2003 by the Byrd Polar Research Center of well-preserved but frozen, soft-bodied wetland plants still rooted in ancient earth, at the base of the Quelccaya ice cap situated at 18,600 foot elevation in the Peruvian Andes.  RC-14 dates of the plants yielded a date of 3,188 ± 45 yrs BC, precisely the Babylonian date for the great flood (3189 BC).

2)      “Unweathered tree still standing with its roots firmly planted in the earth” discovered in Washington State at the base of the receding Cascade Glacier and dated to this same time”.

3)      1991 discovery of Ötzi, a human body revealed by a melting glacier in the Italian Alps, which dated to 3225 ± 125 yrs BC.  “The exceptional state of preservation of the Ice-man and of his artifacts requires that he was rapidly entombed at the time of this death and remained so until he was discovered”.  “Thus, the Iceman reveals that at about 5,300-5,050 cal yr BP, a rapid climatic change took place producing a persistent snow cover on previously deglaciated areas . . . . This deterioration in climate marks the beginning of Neoglaciation in the Alps, which induced a glacier expansion.”

4)      Entire town found buried by a mudslide in the Czech Republic at this exact time.  Excavation revealed a ground gradient so gradual that it would have taken extreme precipitation to mobilize the earth.

d.       Volcanic-like effects also induced by large meteors:

1)       “Dust-veil” events:  largest ever recorded according to tree rings, began in 3,190 yr BC range.  “In some places, including Mesoamerica, vast forests completely died.  In England, the oldest known trees of two regional oak chronologies all began their lives at this time”.

2)      Primary way dust-veil events affect climate is through the release of sulfur into the stratosphere, where it combines w/water to produce sulfuric acid.  Largest spike in acid levels found in the Greenland ice sheet in at least the last 9,000 years occurred in 3150 ± 90 yrs BC, but there are no correlated volcanic eruptions associated with this spike.

3)      Largest sulfate spike in the Greenland ice sheet began ~3,200 yrs BC.  Much larger than sulfate spikes associated w/known volcanic eruptions.

4)      In 2005, a new technique (combining synchrotron radiation, XRAY microfluorescence and absorption spectroscopy) analyzed bands in Alpine stalagmites, and found a band containing highly concentrated sulfur dated at 3150 ± 130 yrs BC.

 

Commentary on the sulfur/sulfuric/sulfuric acid concentrations at this date and time:  the fact that the intense sulfur is found in the ice cap is indicative of atmospheric sulfur and not a local anomaly; and the amount is far greater than that produced by any known volcanoes.  The likely source is a very large meteor, where one “300 m across contains five times as much sulfur as the entire modern (well-polluted) atmosphere”.  So the Burkle meteor, at 25 km across, could contains 17 times as much as this.

 

e.       Chevrons consisting of sediments thrown up from deep ocean floor on coastlines surrounding location of the Burkle Crater.

1)       Miles long and more than 100 m tall, some covering an area as large as Manhattan.  It would take a tsunami 600 ft tall to produce them.

2)      Dee Breger analzed samples of chevron sediment in October, 2006, using “a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and found deep-ocean microfossils (benthic foraminifera) that had been splashed with molten iron, nickel and chrome in proportions consistent with a chondritic meteor”.

Now I haven't thoroughly vetted Compton's sources, but if accurate and in my view, the event 'precipitated' by the Burkle meteor has a high probability of having caused the massive flooding, including the Noahic flood of that time-period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by blarsen

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

....................

There is strong evidence for a massive bolide (very large meteor) impact event that happened circa 3,200 BC or 5,200 yrs BP. It was discovered by Dr. Dallas H. Abbott, of LaMont-Doherty Earth Observatory in 2005 (see: Exodus Lost by S.C. Compton, 2010), and is called the Burkle Crater.

I was unaware of that meteoric impact.  Thanks for the summary.  Ties a lot of phenomena together.

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

The main evidence for this is a 25 km diameter crater that has been found using geophysical methods on the floor of the Indian Ocean. Modeling indicates the size of the meteor would have had to be about 5 km diameter to create the crater it did and at the bottom of 12,500 feet of water. Estimates of the energy are ~ 20,000,000 megatons of force, equivalent to about 1,330,000,000 Hiroshima-style atomic bombs.

They also estimate that several trillion tons of water could have been displaced into the atmosphere, and chevrons of sediment thrown up onto surrounding coastlines indicate a tsunami that was 600 ft high.

What goes up, has to come down . . . not to mention the flooding from such a massive tsunami . . . . though it would dampen as it traveled through the world's oceans.

There are 2-3 ancient calendars that mark a flood event as the start of their new calendric era at roughly this same time, and there are many other physical conditions in ice and sediments that seem to have radically changed around that time, as well.

Here’s the evidence, taken from pages 141-155 of Compton’s Exodus Lost, 2010:

1.       Calendar evidence; indicating  a flood at  ~ 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP) 

a.      Babylonian flood-start at 3189 BC as indicated by the Atrahasis Epic of the tribal Ammorites, “easily the most sophisticated of all known ancient Near-Eastern mythological epics – Sumerian, Accadian, Canaanite (Ugaritic), Horite (Hurrian) and Hittite”.  They carried this into Babylon. This was the end of one of four of their 600 year ages or epics separated by calamities; with the last one, delineated by the great flood.  It’s interesting to note that Noah was 600 years old when the Biblical flood began.

b.      Ancient Indian texts indicate a last world flood, also one of four, took place at 3,102 BC as indicated by ancient Indian texts:  the Sataptha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and several Puhanas.  This ushered in our current Kali Yuga age.  Speculation is that these two accounts (Babylonian and Indian) may be related.

c.       Mayan/Aztec calendars count time from 3114 BC, also demarcating a flood that ended the fourth of four ages.  Evidence indicates the same date in Mixtec and Aztec calendric data, even in the Aztec Calendar stone; and speculation is that the Mayan’s inherited this story from the Olmecs.  Taken from:  Historia de los Mexicanos por sus Pinturas, ~1530s; Leyenda de los Soles, 1558; and the Codex Rios.  Their ages lasted 676 years as opposed to 600 years of the Babylonians, but they also say that 600 years passed between the “birth of the Gods and the creation of the earth”.

The Olmec (Jaredites) invented that 360-day-year count in 3114 BC in southern Mexico, which jibes with the Hindu Kali Yuga cycle which also uses 360-day years and begins at nearly the same time.  interesting that this date coincides approximately with the beginnings of both Sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia and the Egyptian civilization along the Nile River.

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

d.      Egyptian record of a flood.  Compton is sparse on this but cites an Egyptian text, The Destruction of Mankind, that cites a period of darkness after a great flood, but provides no footnote.

Commentary on the discrepancies of these dates:  The Babylonians only give a start date for the flood:  3189 BC.  But both the Indian and Mayan/Aztecan dates signify not the start of the flood, but the start of a new age with a new Sun God appearing after a period of darkness following the flood.  A Mayan pot exhibits an interim date of 3149 BC as the time when the old sun god was defeated after the flood, but a new one had not yet been installed (3114 BC).

.................................

2.      Physical evidence of a major planetary event happening in the 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP) time frame.  Footnotes for these claims can be found in the book.

a.       Major drop in temperature at the ~3,200 yrs BC mark, as indicated by:

...........................

b.      Monumental surge in precipitation for this time period, as indicated by:

1)      Sudden dramatic surge in methane at 3,200 yrs BC as found in air bubbles trapped in Greenland ice cap.  Methane correlates w/amount of wetlands.

2)      Pollen profiles indicate surge in precipitation at this time, as well.

.......................

 

“In many of these paleoclimate records, this event is the most extreme increase in precipitation and drop in temperature in the more than 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age” and “was also nearly instantaneous.”

 

c.       Flash freeze events:

1)      Discovery in 2003 by the Byrd Polar Research Center of well-preserved but frozen, soft-bodied wetland plants still rooted in ancient earth, at the base of the Quelccaya ice cap situated at 18,600 foot elevation in the Peruvian Andes.  RC-14 dates of the plants yielded a date of 3,188 ± 45 yrs BC, precisely the Babylonian date for the great flood (3189 BC).

2)      “Unweathered tree still standing with its roots firmly planted in the earth” discovered in Washington State at the base of the receding Cascade Glacier and dated to this same time”.

3)      1991 discovery of Ötzi, a human body revealed by a melting glacier in the Italian Alps, which dated to 3225 ± 125 yrs BC.  “The exceptional state of preservation of the Ice-man and of his artifacts requires that he was rapidly entombed at the time of this death and remained so until he was discovered”.  “Thus, the Iceman reveals that at about 5,300-5,050 cal yr BP, a rapid climatic change took place producing a persistent snow cover on previously deglaciated areas . . . . This deterioration in climate marks the beginning of Neoglaciation in the Alps, which induced a glacier expansion.”

4)      Entire town found buried by a mudslide in the Czech Republic at this exact time.  Excavation revealed a ground gradient so gradual that it would have taken extreme precipitation to mobilize the earth.

d.       Volcanic-like effects also induced by large meteors:

1)       “Dust-veil” events:  largest ever recorded according to tree rings, began in 3,190 yr BC range.  “In some places, including Mesoamerica, vast forests completely died.  In England, the oldest known trees of two regional oak chronologies all began their lives at this time”.

2)      Primary way dust-veil events affect climate is through the release of sulfur into the stratosphere, where it combines w/water to produce sulfuric acid.  Largest spike in acid levels found in the Greenland ice sheet in at least the last 9,000 years occurred in 3150 ± 90 yrs BC, but there are no correlated volcanic eruptions associated with this spike.

3)      Largest sulfate spike in the Greenland ice sheet began ~3,200 yrs BC.  Much larger than sulfate spikes associated w/known volcanic eruptions.

4)      In 2005, a new technique (combining synchrotron radiation, XRAY microfluorescence and absorption spectroscopy) analyzed bands in Alpine stalagmites, and found a band containing highly concentrated sulfur dated at 3150 ± 130 yrs BC.

.............................

Now I haven't thoroughly vetted Compton's sources, but if accurate and in my view, the event 'precipitated' by the Burkle meteor has a high probability of having caused the massive flooding, including the Noahic flood of that time-period.

Very useful.  Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was unaware of that meteoric impact.  Thanks for the summary.  Ties a lot of phenomena together.

The Olmec (Jaredites) invented that 360-day-year count in 3114 BC in southern Mexico, which jibes with the Hindu Kali Yuga cycle which also uses 360-day years and begins at nearly the same time.  interesting that this date coincides approximately with the beginnings of both Sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia and the Egyptian civilization along the Nile River.

Very useful.  Thanks.

I have been reading up on meteor impacts and indeed this seems like  an actual possibility.  It has been a VERY long time since I have thought that historicity including the flood story were at all relevant to spiritual truth- for me they are two different unrelated subjects.   Spirituality has nothing to do with history OR science.  But it seems now fairly likely that the flood STORY could indeed have come from a meteor impact.  When one takes into account the tsunamis that could be generated by an object that large hitting earth, it truly is a MIRACLE that anyone on earth survived, if that is how it happened, if they were the "Noah Family" or not.

Interestingly though even if could be "proven" tomorrow (not going to happen) the story still has its spiritual meaning intact- God CAN save- and in this case- did save-  those whom He knows need to survive to fulfill His purposes for the covenant path.

[sunstoned]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

That's Robert!

It was so smooth I didn't even notice!

[Steve Thompson]

14 hours ago, blarsen said:

 

d.      Egyptian record of a flood.  Compton is sparse on this but cites an Egyptian text, The Destruction of Mankind, that cites a period of darkness after a great flood, but provides no footnote.

 

A passage from Erik Hornung, Der agyptische Mythos von der Himmelskuh, p. 93-94 (in translation):

Since the myth of the celestial cow, the punishing goddess is the fiery eye of the sun that burns enemies with its embers; in the same direction one may interpret a text by Tutankhamun that is close to the time, according to which the "daughter of Re" sends her burning breath against his enemies. In Egypt it is not a deluge that prepares the downfall of the rebellious human race, because the annual flooding of the country was valid even as a blessing when it reached dangerous, destructive heights; in addition, death by drowning was sanctified by the fate of Osiris. On the other hand, in Egyptian ideas of the afterlife, the fire penalty is the most effective means of radically and permanently wiping out all enemies of creation, and since the Ramesside period it has been used on a case-by-case basis against earthly-political enemies. The motif of the merciful and cunning rescue of the remnant of humanity by the sun god is limited to our text, in that he has blood-red colored beer provided for the punishing goddess' blood thirst in order to prevent her from completely destroying the people.

There was no "flood myth" analogous to the biblical flood in Egyptian mythology.  As Hornung notes, the method of destruction of rebellious mankind was fire, meaning the punishing heat of the sun.  In the "Myth of the Heavenly Cow" (which is also referred to  as "the Destruction of Mankind")  a flood of beer actually saves mankind. 

Hornung's book can be downloaded from: https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/138421/

 

[Navidad]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:34 PM, blarsen said:

My, my.  lt worked.

There is actually another flood scenario that is almost always, if not always, ignored.  That is one where a catastrophic event may have been severe enough to cause massive precip., w/concomitant massive, world-wide flooding.  This doesn't mean a "world-wide flood, per se, even one covering most of the planet, but one where vast areas could have been flooded, especially in the low-lands of the world and/or its very large flood planes.

Such a possible event and its evidence is presented by S. C. Compton in his book, Exodus Lost.  If anyone is interested, I'll synopsize the evidence for you, as I get time.

 

S. C. Compton is my cousin. His next book, not yet published is even better than Exodus Lost. It focuses on the flood, flood theories, myth, etc. He recently got back from a rather dangerous trip researching and lecturing in southeastern Turkey. He is both Oxford and U of Chicago trained. I am helping him edit the new one. I am teaching him how to write long rambling sentences, each one blessed with at least eight commas located in all the wrong places. I don't know a whole lot about Lucifer, but I do believe he had a hand in creating the comma! Such a fiendish little device!

 

[blarsen]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:20 PM, mfbukowski said:

I think I understand both sides at the same time- it's, as usual, the rabbit/duck quandary.

Science confirms the LDS approach as you point out, though few see that, so congratulations!   Alma 32 is essentially a justification for both scienctific materialism AND seeing spiritual truth as justified only by the miracle of God's actual communication with his children.

That's why I keep harping on James' Radical Empiricism.   If one includes both scientific AND spiritual experience as "valid evidence" one can see Wittgenstein's duck and the rabbit at the same time as "true representations" seen from a different context

 

 

The way  I see it, In both cases, experiences with the 5-sense world and experiences with the spiritual, or numinous world, if you will, it is the individual who perceives the content from each realm. 

The big difference between the two, is that experiences from the 5-sense world are perceived by everybody and at the same time if they are in the same locale where the content is being manifested.  This means that conditions that created the experience can be duplicated and the inherent causality implied by those conditions can be reproduced and monitored by potentially anybody and verified by them as well using the 5 senses.

Whereas, experiences coming from the numinous world are generally tailored for the individual alone and can't be reproduced and are not necessarily perceived by more than one person.  This is because the spiritual realm is one that deals primarily with intelligence, consciousness/awareness, one that interacts w/an individuals own intelligence, consciousness and awareness, not with physical causality.

Edited January 24, 2022 by blarsen

[blarsen]

Whoops.

Edited January 24, 2022 by blarsen
Screwed up the post.

[blarsen]

On 1/23/2022 at 7:46 AM, Navidad said:

S. C. Compton is my cousin. His next book, not yet published is even better than Exodus Lost. It focuses on the flood, flood theories, myth, etc. He recently got back from a rather dangerous trip researching and lecturing in southeastern Turkey. He is both Oxford and U of Chicago trained. I am helping him edit the new one. I am teaching him how to write long rambling sentences, each one blessed with at least eight commas located in all the wrong places. I don't know a whole lot about Lucifer, but I do believe he had a hand in creating the comma! Such a fiendish little device!

 

Ha!  Are you serious??    Compton is your cousin, and you are even now helping him edit his new book and the flood, etc?  Knock me over with a feather.

Where is he currently located and when does he anticipate getting his new book out?  Tell me now that he lives in Chihuahua.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by blarsen

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

The way  I see it, In both cases, experiences with the 5-sense world and experiences with the spiritual, or numinous world, if you will, it is the individual who perceives the content from each realm. 

The big difference between the two, is that experiences from the 5-sense world are perceived by everybody and at the same time if they are in the same locale where the content is being manifested.  This means that conditions that created the experience can be duplicated and the inherent causality implied by those conditions can be reproduced and monitored by potentially anybody and verified by them as well using the 5 senses.

Whereas, experiences coming from the numinous world are generally tailored for the individual alone and can't be reproduced and are not necessarily perceived by more than one person.  This is because the spiritual realm is one that deals primarily with intelligence, consciousness/awareness, one that interacts w/an individuals own intelligence, consciousness and awareness, not with physical causality.

Oh yeah!

I can see I have a new buddy here!

I simplify it to the ideal that religion and spirit are about teleology or PURPOSE and science is about mechanics.

What is the purpose of life is a question that will get a chuckle out of believers in scientism, and factual questions about God,  SHOULD get a chuckle from those who understand spiritual matters.

Science is about HOW and religion is about WHY.

"How was Mary impregnated" is NOT something relevant to spiritual thought

[blarsen]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah!

I can see I have a new buddy here!

I simplify it to the ideal that religion and spirit are about teleology or PURPOSE and science is about mechanics.

What is the purpose of life is a question that will get a chuckle out of believers in scientism, and factual questions about God,  SHOULD get a chuckle from those who understand spiritual matters.

Science is about HOW and religion is about WHY.

"How was Mary impregnated" is NOT something relevant to spiritual thought

Right, and teleology has to do with the operation of intelligence.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, blarsen said:

Ha!  Are you serious??    Compton is your cousin, and you are even now helping him edit his new book and the flood, etc?  Knock me over with a feather.

Where is he currently located and when does he anticipate getting his new book out?  Tell me now that he lives in Chihuahua.

 

Yes, I am for once in my life serious! Actually he is my wife's blood cousin, but we have been married 52 years, so in her family we all claim each other. I have read the draft of his new book and offered several reams of counsel. That really isn't editing it. I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about that. I do hate commas however.

My cousin is one of the smartest young men I have ever met. He is now hard at work finding Sennacherib's circular campgrounds all over the middle east. That has a lot to do with his interest in the ark and the occasion when Sennacherib climbed to see the remnants of the ark in his own time. He had his men carve a homage to him at the site that is still there (Not the traditional Ararat site, but I can't say more). Now, I am saying too much!

My cousin survived confrontations with the Kurds who ended up serving him tea and chatting with his 12 year old daughter back in the US! It is a great book, scholarly, scientific, and narrative all at the same time. I don't know when it will come out for public consumption. He is still working out the details. He lives in the Chicago area. He was an editor for Oxford Press, so he really does not need my help!

Oh and his grandmother and grandfather had 17 children, all by single births! His dad is, of course one of them. The family stories are hilarious!  When I was young and just married I went to their house in the middle of Kansas. Fun place.
 

[blarsen]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:29 PM, Navidad said:

Yes, I am for once in my life serious! Actually he is my wife's blood cousin, but we have been married 52 years, so in her family we all claim each other. I have read the draft of his new book and offered several reams of counsel. That really isn't editing it. I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about that. I do hate commas however.

My cousin is one of the smartest young men I have ever met. He is now hard at work finding Sennacherib's circular campgrounds all over the middle east. That has a lot to do with his interest in the ark and the occasion when Sennacherib climbed to see the remnants of the ark in his own time. He had his men carve a homage to him at the site that is still there (Not the traditional Ararat site, but I can't say more). Now, I am saying too much!

My cousin survived confrontations with the Kurds who ended up serving him tea and chatting with his 12 year old daughter back in the US! It is a great book, scholarly, scientific, and narrative all at the same time. I don't know when it will come out for public consumption. He is still working out the details. He lives in the Chicago area. He was an editor for Oxford Press, so he really does not need my help!

Oh and his grandmother and grandfather had 17 children, all by single births! His dad is, of course one of them. The family stories are hilarious!  When I was young and just married I went to their house in the middle of Kansas. Fun place.
 

Fascinating!  You have to have an interesting family.

Curious . . . you seem to have been posting on this blog for some time, and perhaps know about some of the early Book of Mormon narrative, to include the voyage of the Mulekites to near the area of the Nephite settlements.  For many of us, it is interesting that the Mulekites named the river they settled on, the River SIdon, and suspect that this may indicate that the Phoenicians (AKA the Hyksos, in Compton's  equivalent identification), may have been the ones that provided the transportation for the Mulekites to the new world.

Also, some of us who suspect this possibility, also see the place of their landing as being in the general region south of Vera Cruz, Mexico on the southern edge of the Gulf of Mexico.  These would be the group who subscribe to what is known in Mormon circles as Mesoamerican models for the location of the Nephite/Lamanite colonies.

A further subset of this group would be those who identify the Usamacinta River as the River Sidon.  Now a note of interest is that Sidon (I've read, but haven't confirmed) means fish, in I guess the Phoenician language.  And apparently Usamacinta mean fish, as well, in whatever language the word comes from.

The fact that Compton identifies many cultural elements from the Hyksos/Phoenicians in the early groups settling/influencing this wide-spread area of southern Mexico (e.g., he notes the apparent knowledge of synthesizing purple die from the Murex gastrapod, know by groups in both regions), he may be at least mildly interested in what I've mentioned here.  I'm also wondering if he has Constance Irwin's book, Fair Gods and Stone Faces, in his ken or library?

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by blarsen

[OGHoosier]

On 1/24/2022 at 1:18 PM, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah!

I can see I have a new buddy here!

I simplify it to the ideal that religion and spirit are about teleology or PURPOSE and science is about mechanics.

What is the purpose of life is a question that will get a chuckle out of believers in scientism, and factual questions about God,  SHOULD get a chuckle from those who understand spiritual matters.

Science is about HOW and religion is about WHY.

"How was Mary impregnated" is NOT something relevant to spiritual thought

We're spreading.