Duncan Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) There was or is a trans person in our ward. He was exed in the mid 1980's in Utah, not for being trans by the way. Anyways, he identified as female for over 20 years and came to church here as a female. Long story short, he stopped coming to church as a woman and six months later came back to the church as a man and legally changed their name to something else but not there original male name. He passes and blesses the sacrament when called upon and married this woman. FWIW. Edited January 1, 2022 by Duncan 1
Chum Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 4 hours ago, BRMC said: Or maybe for eternity. Changes in policy kind of indicate that it isn't forever unchanging.
Chum Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: Nope. Any of us can put whatever we want into these fields of our record: Our biological sex isn't addressed in this section of the handbook, and is something we cannot change. I'm not sure if the ward clerk can change the sex field, other than when entering a new record for the first time. I don't have any of that. Just contact info.
Duncan Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 Just now, rodheadlee said: What is LCR? Leader and Clerk Resources 2
rodheadlee Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: Leader and Clerk Resources Thank you. 1
CV75 Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Which allows for salvation through Christ but effectively blocks the ordinances of exaltation. Seems a reasonable middle ground. At least for now in this "middle ground" of mortal life on earth, before the spirit world settlements free up any blocks to receiving these ordinances. 1
Duncan Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 1 hour ago, CV75 said: At least for now in this "middle ground" of mortal life on earth, before the spirit world settlements free up any blocks to receiving these ordinances. yeah, I can't imagine God denying ordinances to trans people, maybe here with our very limited understanding but in the next life they won't be denied anything 2
carbon dioxide Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Duncan said: yeah, I can't imagine God denying ordinances to trans people, maybe here with our very limited understanding but in the next life they won't be denied anything God does not deny anything from anyone. We deny ourselves by our actions and decisions. Trans people at some point do have to come to terms with who they are. A trans person may have surgery and all that but none of that will be retained in the resurrection.
MustardSeed Posted January 1, 2022 Author Posted January 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: God does not deny anything from anyone. We deny ourselves by our actions and decisions. Trans people at some point do have to come to terms with who they are. A trans person may have surgery and all that but none of that will be retained in the resurrection. And what will happen to those born with both features?
rongo Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: And what will happen to those born with both features? True hermaphrodites will be resurrected with a body matching their eternal gender. That's what I believe. 2
Duncan Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: God does not deny anything from anyone. We deny ourselves by our actions and decisions. Trans people at some point do have to come to terms with who they are. A trans person may have surgery and all that but none of that will be retained in the resurrection. Trans people have different actions and decisions that I can't even fathom, God can though. I think we deny others opportunities. It's speculative, I think, about what gets retained in the resurrection. I am wondering about trans people from 3000 years ago who had no surgery option, what will become of them, who knows Edited January 1, 2022 by Duncan 1
MustardSeed Posted January 1, 2022 Author Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, rongo said: True hermaphrodites will be resurrected with a body matching their eternal gender. That's what I believe. Here's hoping they chose wisely on earth. I assume if nature can make errors like hermaphrodites (assuming its an error of course) then who am I to say that nature couldn't make errors for some with gender? and who am I to decide which trans folks are the ones who are True and which ones are simply confused? Thank goodness I don't have to decide. Edited January 1, 2022 by MustardSeed
carbon dioxide Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 33 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: And what will happen to those born with both features? Is that really the issue with 99.9% of trans people. God will address those issues individually that do have those genetic or developmental issues
Chum Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Duncan said: It's speculative, I think, about what gets retained in the resurrection The goal posts seem to move on this one a lot. rando: "Only intellect gets retained in the hereafter" me: "Dad was a monster." rando: "Um. It's only the good intellect" or something equally mealymouthed. 2
Calm Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, rongo said: True hermaphrodites will be resurrected with a body matching their eternal gender. That's what I believe. So if there can be inconsistency with two sexes involved, why not one sex? As in someone female having male attributes…essentially the same as the person who had male and female, except the one set that is their eternal gender didn’t develop for some reason just as those with two had an extra set develop for some reason. I don’t see much difference between overdevelopment (something developing that shouldn’t) and underdevelopment (something not developing that should) and any combo. If it can happen in one case, why not the others? Edited January 1, 2022 by Calm 1
Peacefully Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, rongo said: True hermaphrodites will be resurrected with a body matching their eternal gender. That's what I believe. My mom said that her grandfather was born with male and female genitalia. I believe the accepted term now is intersex. Anyway, a couple of my cousins totally refute the story. My mom is gone, and so are all of the other old-timers, so who knows. It was definitely a deep, dark family secret if true. I remember my great-grandfather and I just remember him being very affectionate and always kissing the grandkids. This was unusual for men in my family so I wonder if that was his more “feminine” side manifesting itself. He has been sealed by proxy to my great-grandmother so I’m not sure how he will feel if his eternal gender turns out to be female. Edited January 1, 2022 by Peacefully
katherine the great Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 33 minutes ago, Duncan said: I am wondering about trans people from 3000 years ago who had no surgery option, what will become of them, who knows In most societies they were just expected to “do their social duty” and shut up about it. Probably resulting in a lot of unhappy marriages with few or no children. A handful of cultures recognized a third and/ or fourth gender and gave them a special position in their society- sometimes with sacred duties. 2
rongo Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 15 minutes ago, Calm said: So if there can be inconsistency with two sexes involved, why not one sex? As in someone female having male attributes…essentially the same as the person who had male and female, except the one set that is their eternal gender didn’t develop for some reason just as those with two had an extra set develop for some reason. I don’t see much difference between overdevelopment (something developing that shouldn’t) and underdevelopment (something not developing that should) and any combo. If it can happen in one case, why not the others? I don't understand your reasoning here. Could you elaborate or expand? In any case, I think you agree that we will be clear cut binary, restored to the eternal gender, in the resurrection, right? Or do you think that there will be people on a "spectrum" of traits (over or under-developed) in the resurrection?
Navidad Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 9 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: We've got a 14 yr old kid in my ward. Somewhere in November, I saw he had come to church in a dress. I saw two or three adults being nice to this person, talking pleasantly after sacrament meeting, walking together in the hall. That's all I know about it. I can't really say anything else, because I don't know anything else. I'm glad there's that bit of guidance in our handbook, and the never-ending deluge of counsel to love and accept folks, and find ways to value diverse perspectives, because at least it gives me a starting place. Is the handbook a guidebook (guidance) or a rule book (direction)? Can it, must it, should it, might it be followed in a local situation? Does it get voted on by anyone? When it is changed, who changes it and who approves the changes? How are the changes announced to the membership? Sorry for all the questions. I sometimes get confused by the terminology. My faith group doesn't have anything like a "handbook" so I am confused a bit about it. Thanks.
Calm Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 3 hours ago, rongo said: In any case, I think you agree that we will be clear cut binary, restored to the eternal gender, in the resurrection, right? Or do you think that there will be people on a "spectrum" of traits (over or under-developed) in the resurrection? I think we don’t have any clue of what we really are. 3
CV75 Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 10 hours ago, Duncan said: yeah, I can't imagine God denying ordinances to trans people, maybe here with our very limited understanding but in the next life they won't be denied anything Thankfully, I don't they will be "trans" at that point, either, and what that means individually and translates into a resurrected body is between God and them. 1
CV75 Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 It is interesting to me that God set up most ordinances to be gender-neutral, except for priesthood conferral, ordination to office and marriage. So I think He understands (and atoned for) the dilemma(s) imposed by a mind-body-spirit "mismatch." The man who baptized me in college later told me he was a woman in man's body, a transsexual (his terms back in 1980). He lived as a single man and dressed as a woman privately and on weekends out of town. He told me of one or two other married men in the Church, with callings with the keys of presidency, with whom he found mutually confidential support in these dilemmas. He never spoke of the resurrection, but did convey an expectation that he would be sealed to someone some day. As a returned missionary by this time, I had my own assumptions as to what that meant. During my college years as a new member of the Church, he gave me rides to meetings and treated me to McDonald's after Church, and had a couple of us over for FHE or dinner on occasion. In retrospect our relationship was very much like a nephew-aunt. He attributed the décor of his apartment (appointed in very high fashion) to keeping things he inherited from his rich aunt. 1
LoudmouthMormon Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 17 hours ago, BRMC said: I'm not sure I understand. Currently, almost everything must be done in LCR (or the mobile app if you have LCR access). I'm not sure what you mean by being rarely used. If it's rarely used, then people aren't monitoring reports, updating ordinances, recommends, and assignments. I went into my account and couldn't see where changing "display name" changed anything. It doesn't link to "preferred name", either. The preferred name only shows in LCR, so it would have to be done by someone with access. You have membership clerk access? Ok - I bow to your superior information here. I think I had LCR confused with the old windows app. Ah yes: "Leader and Clerk Resources" - I was mistaken. (And it's good stuff to know, depending on how the story with my 14 yr old dress wearing friend evolves.)
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 On 1/1/2022 at 1:00 PM, LoudmouthMormon said: You have membership clerk access? Ok - I bow to your superior information here. I think I had LCR confused with the old windows app. Ah yes: "Leader and Clerk Resources" - I was mistaken. (And it's good stuff to know, depending on how the story with my 14 yr old dress wearing friend evolves.) I think you were thinking of MLS which is now pretty much phased out. The last thing to move was doing tithing and donations over to the website a few months ago. 1
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