Transgender pronouns and baptism

[MustardSeed]

I’m too lazy to reference it but my buddy tells me that the handbook now instructs us to use pronouns of choice at baptisms for the person being baptized. I like this change.  Some don’t, they call it pandering.  
My son who claims to be a cis gendered male is leaving the church because of two issues.  One is the treatment of LGBTQ members.  I take great interest in any movement the church makes to be inclusionary. I don’t feel my relationship with Jesus Christ is harmed by this change- rather the opposite.  It helps fulfill the church’s mission IMO.  
 

Feel free to discuss, and I invite all to be curious about others’ experience and thoughts on the topic. 

[bluebell]

Here is the relevant section in the Handbook that addresses members who are transgendered:

Quote

 

Transgender Individuals

Transgender individuals face complex challenges. Members and nonmembers who identify as transgender—and their family and friends—should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love. All are welcome to attend sacrament meeting, other Sunday meetings, and social events of the Church (see 38.1.1).

Gender is an essential characteristic of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness. The intended meaning of gender in the family proclamation is biological sex at birth. Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, they may identify as transgender. The Church does not take a position on the causes of people identifying as transgender.

Most Church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Transgender persons may be baptized and confirmed as outlined in 38.2.8.10. They may also partake of the sacrament and receive priesthood blessings. However, priesthood ordination and temple ordinances are received according to biological sex at birth.

Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person’s biological sex at birth (“sex reassignment”). Leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for Church membership restrictions.

Leaders also counsel against social transitioning. A social transition includes changing dress or grooming, or changing a name or pronouns, to present oneself as other than his or her biological sex at birth. Leaders advise that those who socially transition will experience some Church membership restrictions for the duration of this transition.

Restrictions include receiving or exercising the priesthood, receiving or using a temple recommend, and receiving some Church callings. Although some privileges of Church membership are restricted, other Church participation is welcomed.

Transgender individuals who do not pursue medical, surgical, or social transition to the opposite gender and are worthy may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

Some children, youth, and adults are prescribed hormone therapy by a licensed medical professional to ease gender dysphoria or reduce suicidal thoughts. Before a person begins such therapy, it is important that he or she (and the parents of a minor) understands the potential risks and benefits. If these members are not attempting to transition to the opposite gender and are worthy, they may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward.

Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person. Members and leaders counsel together and with the Lord. Area Presidencies will help local leaders sensitively address individual situations. Bishops counsel with the stake president. Stake presidents and mission presidents must seek counsel from the Area Presidency

 

I thought it was interesting that the church takes no position on the cause of people identifying as transgender.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m too lazy to reference it but my buddy tells me that the handbook now instructs us to use pronouns of choice at baptisms for the person being baptized. I like this change.  Some don’t, they call it pandering.  
My son who claims to be a cis gendered male is leaving the church because of two issues.  One is the treatment of LGBTQ members.  I take great interest in any movement the church makes to be inclusionary. I don’t feel my relationship with Jesus Christ is harmed by this change- rather the opposite.  It helps fulfill the church’s mission IMO.  
 

Feel free to discuss, and I invite all to be curious about others’ experience and thoughts on the topic. 

All I could find is in 38.2.8.10 and 38.6.23.

"If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward." 

"Most Church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Transgender persons may be baptized and confirmed as outlined in 38.2.8.10. They may also partake of the sacrament and receive priesthood blessings. However, priesthood ordination and temple ordinances are received according to biological sex at birth."

I think it always helps when a great interest in a topic is matched with the diligence to get the facts about it. That way emotions, no matter how they go, don't automatically hijack and win the argument, but instead the Spirit can help mange feelings and logic.

 

 

[BRMC]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here is the relevant section in the Handbook that addresses members who are transgendered:

I thought it was interesting that the church takes no position on the cause of people identifying as transgender.

The entire section is interesting.   They obviously want people to be comfortable, as they allow the preferred name to be entered and used.  However, they also differentiate between gender neutral ordinances (such as baptism) and gender-specific ordinances (such as priesthood).   

If someone were to ask me today if a transgender individual could be baptized, the answer appears to be yes, providing that person has only transitioned socially and isn't pursuing medical transition.  If they had legally changed their name, I would assume it could be used but I would reach out to the stake president for clarification.   I suppose that would already be sorted out by the mission president, except in the rare circumstance that transition has occurred in a member child turning 8.

I don't see where the handbook instructs us to do anything regarding the use name or pronouns, except that it "MAY" be entered or used.   That's different than "SHALL".

I wonder if anyone has been in the position to deal with this and what the outcome was?

[MustardSeed]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it always helps when a great interest in a topic is matched with the diligence to get the facts about it. That way emotions, no matter how they go, don't automatically hijack and win the argument, but instead the Spirit can help mange feelings and logic.

Fair enough. 
I certainly could have taken time to provide facts needed for the purpose of this conversation here. 

[Chum]

11 minutes ago, BRMC said:

I don't see where the handbook instructs us to do anything regarding the use name or pronouns, except that it "MAY" be entered or used.   That's different than "SHALL".

I suspect the stronger alternative to May would have been Should. My other suspicion is May is as strong as the Church can be right now, without blowing seals on members who aren't ready.

[BRMC]

Just now, Chum said:

I suspect the stronger alternative to May would have been Should. My other suspicion is May is as strong as the Church can be right now, without blowing seals on members who aren't ready.

Or, maybe "may" is exactly what it should be.

[Chum]

Just now, BRMC said:

Or, maybe "may" is exactly what it should be.

for today.

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, BRMC said:

The entire section is interesting.   They obviously want people to be comfortable, as they allow the preferred name to be entered and used.  However, they also differentiate between gender neutral ordinances (such as baptism) and gender-specific ordinances (such as priesthood).   

If someone were to ask me today if a transgender individual could be baptized, the answer appears to be yes, providing that person has only transitioned socially and isn't pursuing medical transition.  If they had legally changed their name, I would assume it could be used but I would reach out to the stake president for clarification.   I suppose that would already be sorted out by the mission president, except in the rare circumstance that transition has occurred in a member child turning 8.

I don't see where the handbook instructs us to do anything regarding the use name or pronouns, except that it "MAY" be entered or used.   That's different than "SHALL".

I wonder if anyone has been in the position to deal with this and what the outcome was?

We had a woman in our ward who was trans who kept begging to have her records changed to female.  She was told she never would have that wish granted.  Seems now perhaps she could.  
is Transgendering something that in the past would bring about excommunication? 

[BRMC]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We had a woman in our ward who was trans who kept begging to have her records changed to female.  She was told she never would have that wish granted.  Seems now perhaps she could.  
is Transgendering something that in the past would bring about excommunication? 

No, you still can't have your records changed to female.  You "may" be able to have your preferred name entered as a preferred name.   In LCR, there is a block under "Member Name" where the "preferred name" can be entered by ward leadership.

Edited December 31, 2021 by BRMC

[BRMC]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

for today.

Or maybe for eternity.

[LoudmouthMormon]

We've got a 14 yr old kid in my ward.  Somewhere in November, I saw he had come to church in a dress.  I saw two or three adults being nice to this person, talking pleasantly after sacrament meeting, walking together in the hall.
That's all I know about it.  I can't really say anything else, because I don't know anything else.

I'm glad there's that bit of guidance in our handbook, and the never-ending deluge of counsel to love and accept folks, and find ways to value diverse perspectives, because at least it gives me a starting place.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We had a woman in our ward who was trans who kept begging to have her records changed to female.  She was told she never would have that wish granted.  Seems now perhaps she could.

Nope. 

Quote

If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward.

Any of us can put whatever we want into these fields of our record:

 

 

Our biological sex isn't addressed in this section of the handbook, and is something we cannot change.  I'm not sure if the ward clerk can change the sex field, other than when entering a new record for the first time.

Edited December 31, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon

[BRMC]

8 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Nope. 

Any of us can put whatever we want into these fields of our record:

 

 

Our biological sex isn't addressed in this section of the handbook, and is something we cannot change.  I'm not sure if the ward clerk can change the sex field, other than when entering a new record for the first time.

I think, and I absolutely may be incorrect, that this is for your page account only, and won't change your records or how anyone sees them.  If you change those names or settings, it only affects your view.  LCR is different.  Preferred name is an LCR entry.

Edited December 31, 2021 by BRMC

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Fair enough. 
I certainly could have taken time to provide facts needed for the purpose of this conversation here. 

It wasn't necessarily aimed at you -- too many get so upset based on the types of remarks your friend made that they do not seek out the facts, but rely on blogs and other nonsense rather than looking up the source (further confirming their bias), then misreading the actual source once they finally get around to "looking at" it rather than "understanding" it. That is an Achilles heel for those wired by Pavlov-dog-type emotional reactions to the pervasive onslaught of data from social and other media: they start to treat people the same way.

Edited December 31, 2021 by CV75

[The Nehor]

The “preferred name” field doesn’t mean much. If you legally change it (as many who transition do) you can show the paperwork and it will get changed.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

"Most Church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Transgender persons may be baptized and confirmed as outlined in 38.2.8.10. They may also partake of the sacrament and receive priesthood blessings. However, priesthood ordination and temple ordinances are received according to biological sex at birth."

Which allows for salvation through Christ but effectively blocks the ordinances of exaltation.  Seems a reasonable middle ground.

[Ginger Snaps]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

I think, and I absolutely may be incorrect, that this is for your page account only, and won't change your records or how anyone sees them.  If you change those names or settings, it only affects your view.  LCR is different.  Preferred name is an LCR entry.

I think this is incorrect. One of my daughters only has her first name with no middle on the ward list. I was concerned her name was incorrect on the church records (all the other kids had first and middle name). My husband asked the ward clerk about it and he told him that her full name is on the record, but she has her display name set to her first name only and that she would have to be the one to change that. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, BRMC said:

I think, and I absolutely may be incorrect, that this is for your page account only, and won't change your records or how anyone sees them.  If you change those names or settings, it only affects your view.  LCR is different.  Preferred name is an LCR entry.

Yes, that's my account view.  I haven't had membership clerk access for a while, but I hang out in the clerk's office and look over dude's shoulder every now and then.  Every month that goes by, LCR goes further and further away from being a thing that people use.  The web application at churchofjesuschrist.org does more and more as time goes on.   Pretty much all the membership record stuff (including name changes and whatnot) are done online.  I don't think anyone in my ward has opened the old windows app for over 6 months.

I am guessing (but I think it's a good guess), that the stuff the member enters in here, links to the 'preferred name' field(s) in the record the bishop and such folks can see.  And a preferred name can be used when addressing folks, even from the pulpit.  And so, yes, a trans individual can move from Mark to Mary (or whatever), change it (or have it changed in the preferred name field), and possibly even be referred to as Mary, even over the pulpit.

(I haven't seen it happen yet, though.)

 

 

[carbon dioxide]

Not really sympathetic to the whole trans thing personally but one could have some fun with it.  I suppose if a person preferred name is lord Voldermort, they could be called that in church 

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Not really sympathetic to the whole trans thing personally but one could have some fun with it.  I suppose if a person preferred name is lord Voldermort, they could be called that in church 

It’s hard to feel that caring for trans folk until your family members face it etc

[carbon dioxide]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s hard to feel that caring for trans folk until your family members face it etc

Perhaps but I am old fashioned. 

[BRMC]

42 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yes, that's my account view.  I haven't had membership clerk access for a while, but I hang out in the clerk's office and look over dude's shoulder every now and then.  Every month that goes by, LCR goes further and further away from being a thing that people use.  The web application at churchofjesuschrist.org does more and more as time goes on.   Pretty much all the membership record stuff (including name changes and whatnot) are done online.  I don't think anyone in my ward has opened the old windows app for over 6 months.

I am guessing (but I think it's a good guess), that the stuff the member enters in here, links to the 'preferred name' field(s) in the record the bishop and such folks can see.  And a preferred name can be used when addressing folks, even from the pulpit.  And so, yes, a trans individual can move from Mark to Mary (or whatever), change it (or have it changed in the preferred name field), and possibly even be referred to as Mary, even over the pulpit.

(I haven't seen it happen yet, though.)

 

 

I'm not sure I understand.  Currently, almost everything must be done in LCR (or the mobile app if you have LCR access).   I'm not sure what you mean by being rarely used.  If it's rarely used, then people aren't monitoring reports, updating ordinances, recommends, and assignments.

I went into my account and couldn't see where changing "display name" changed anything.   It doesn't link to "preferred name", either.  The preferred name only shows in LCR, so it would have to be done by someone with access.   

[Fether]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m too lazy to reference it but my buddy tells me that the handbook now instructs us to use pronouns of choice at baptisms for the person being baptized. I like this change.  Some don’t, they call it pandering.  
My son who claims to be a cis gendered male is leaving the church because of two issues.  One is the treatment of LGBTQ members.  I take great interest in any movement the church makes to be inclusionary. I don’t feel my relationship with Jesus Christ is harmed by this change- rather the opposite.  It helps fulfill the church’s mission IMO.  
 

Feel free to discuss, and I invite all to be curious about others’ experience and thoughts on the topic. 

My sister is trans and has changed her name as well. She doesn’t attend church, but she is still in high school and living with my active parents.
 

Changing their name and pronouns is extremely helpful for my parents so they dont have the young men coming over and inviting her to activities.

Additionally, changing your name and pronouns on official records of any sort seems to be extremely helpful and therapeutic for those seeking to transition.

This policy has nothing to do with church ordinances / doctrine and everything to do with respect and tolerance.

[Chum]

17 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I am old fashioned. 

You are fashioned from age? You must have been a fun kid.

No. I don't know what I mean either.